Author Topic: Sex, Gender and Identity  (Read 38265 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Decky

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #50 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:02:24 pm »
I'm all for live and let live so I've no problem with an adult aligning to a particular sexual identity/gender. I do have a problem when it's children though. You see these young kids at age 8 or whatever saying they feel like they are the opposite gender and then their parents go along with it. I don't think a child can make a decision like that or even understand fully what they're talking about and in the end it could be quite damaging to them.
“What is a club in any case? Not the buildings or the directors or the people who are paid to represent it. It’s not the television contracts, get-out clauses, marketing departments or executive boxes. It’s the noise, the passion, the feeling of belonging, the pride in your city. It’s a small boy clambering up stadium steps for the very first time, gripping his father’s hand, gawping at that hallowed stretch of turf beneath him and, without being able to do a thing about it, falling in love.” - Sir Bobby Robson

Offline Toondave

  • General Member
  • There's a little bit of Toondave in all of us
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #51 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:03:10 pm »
and the toilet thing is such a red herring. Just have one room with urinals and one with cubicles, sorted.

There's loads of places here with just cubicles and everyone washes their hands at the same place. Doesn't feel weird and I'm not sure why it has to become a transgender thing at all.

Offline Hanshithispantz

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #52 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:03:30 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.


I'm not going to get into any of that like :lol:

I don't really care what they do, or what they need to make themselves feel good, I just don't think we're at a point where we can legally be like "aye you're a man/woman 100%".

Offline Decky

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #53 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:05:52 pm »
and the toilet thing is such a red herring. Just have one room with urinals and one with cubicles, sorted.

I've been in unisex toilets before and they seem to work quite well. I think the main problem is women don't want to be smelling men's s***s.
“What is a club in any case? Not the buildings or the directors or the people who are paid to represent it. It’s not the television contracts, get-out clauses, marketing departments or executive boxes. It’s the noise, the passion, the feeling of belonging, the pride in your city. It’s a small boy clambering up stadium steps for the very first time, gripping his father’s hand, gawping at that hallowed stretch of turf beneath him and, without being able to do a thing about it, falling in love.” - Sir Bobby Robson

Offline Toondave

  • General Member
  • There's a little bit of Toondave in all of us
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #54 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:06:11 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.


I'm not going to get into any of that like :lol:

I don't really care what they do, or what they beed to make themselves feel good, I just don't think we're at a point where we can legally be like "aye you're a man/woman 100%".

Are there legal differences?

I did try it on once during my pool's "women's hour". They were having none of it

Offline Darth Crooks

  • General Member
  • Merry Crooksmas
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #55 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:06:19 pm »
I'm all for live and let live so I've no problem with an adult aligning to a particular sexual identity/gender. I do have a problem when it's children though. You see these young kids at age 8 or whatever saying they feel like they are the opposite gender and then their parents go along with it. I don't think a child can make a decision like that or even understand fully what they're talking about and in the end it could be quite damaging to them.

So what do they do? Repress their feelings until they resent themselves later. If they are 8 and dressing up then what's the problem? If its not consistent then its likely just part of a young child figuring out social norms and aspects of developing identity. As long as you're tactful about it and not blinker the child then how would the opposite work?


Offline Toondave

  • General Member
  • There's a little bit of Toondave in all of us
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #56 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:06:39 pm »
and the toilet thing is such a red herring. Just have one room with urinals and one with cubicles, sorted.

I've been in unisex toilets before and they seem to work quite well. I think the main problem is women don't want to be smelling men's s***s.

Ar aye want equality when it suits them  :lol:

Offline Si

  • General Member
  • I dont handle change well.
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #57 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:07:24 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.
Some do, again it's a spectrum not absolutes. If you stop trying to put people in boxes (pun not intended [emoji38] ) it gets easier.
Bearings Straight!

Offline Kaizero

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #58 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:08:52 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.

It's not like that though. To put it (very basically to make the example clear) in football terms. You're a Newcastle fan. You know you're a Newcastle fan. But you're not allowed to be a Newcastle fan - you have to be an Arsenal fan. If you dress up in Newcastle gear, people will just mock you, look at you funny and treat you like an outcast of society. You're an Arsenal fan after all. You can never be a Newcastle fan, no matter how much you know you are a Newcastle fan.

Offline Decky

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #59 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:09:46 pm »
I'm all for live and let live so I've no problem with an adult aligning to a particular sexual identity/gender. I do have a problem when it's children though. You see these young kids at age 8 or whatever saying they feel like they are the opposite gender and then their parents go along with it. I don't think a child can make a decision like that or even understand fully what they're talking about and in the end it could be quite damaging to them.

So what do they do? Repress their feelings until they resent themselves later. If they are 8 and dressing up then what's the problem? If its not consistent then its likely just part of a young child figuring out social norms and aspects of developing identity. As long as you're tactful about it and not blinker the child then how would the opposite work?

I'm not a parent so I'm not sure how you would approach it but some sort of medium between encouraging it and repressing it. A child could just happen to see someone talking about being transgender on TV and decide that's what they want to be based on absolutely nothing at all. It's a decision that needs to be made when the person is of a mature age and is absolutely certain imo.
“What is a club in any case? Not the buildings or the directors or the people who are paid to represent it. It’s not the television contracts, get-out clauses, marketing departments or executive boxes. It’s the noise, the passion, the feeling of belonging, the pride in your city. It’s a small boy clambering up stadium steps for the very first time, gripping his father’s hand, gawping at that hallowed stretch of turf beneath him and, without being able to do a thing about it, falling in love.” - Sir Bobby Robson

Offline Toondave

  • General Member
  • There's a little bit of Toondave in all of us
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #60 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:10:27 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.
Some do, again it's a spectrum not absolutes. If you stop trying to put people in boxes (pun not intended [emoji38] ) it gets easier.

Well I'm questioning those who don't not those who do. They either want to be a woman, or they're forcing themselves to conform to these social constructs. If they're purely socially constructed then what they feel should have no impact on what they are biologically. They'd just be "feminine male with penis" or something I don't know what to call it.

Something like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa'afafine


Offline Toondave

  • General Member
  • There's a little bit of Toondave in all of us
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #61 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:11:25 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.

It's not like that though. To put it (very basically to make the example clear) in football terms. You're a Newcastle fan. You know you're a Newcastle fan. But you're not allowed to be a Newcastle fan - you have to be an Arsenal fan. If you dress up in Newcastle gear, people will just mock you, look at you funny and treat you like an outcast of society. You're an Arsenal fan after all. You can never be a Newcastle fan, no matter how much you know you are a Newcastle fan.

Right so the issue is with the society they find themselves in, not what biological bits they have. My point exactly. By undergoing surgery you're just conforming to the constructs surely

I mean I have no issue with people undergoing surgery, do what you want I don't care, it just doesn't seem terribly logically coherent.

Offline Kaizero

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #62 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:11:58 pm »
I'm all for live and let live so I've no problem with an adult aligning to a particular sexual identity/gender. I do have a problem when it's children though. You see these young kids at age 8 or whatever saying they feel like they are the opposite gender and then their parents go along with it. I don't think a child can make a decision like that or even understand fully what they're talking about and in the end it could be quite damaging to them.

So what do they do? Repress their feelings until they resent themselves later. If they are 8 and dressing up then what's the problem? If its not consistent then its likely just part of a young child figuring out social norms and aspects of developing identity. As long as you're tactful about it and not blinker the child then how would the opposite work?

I'm not a parent so I'm not sure how you would approach it but some sort of medium between encouraging it and repressing it. A child could just happen to see someone talking about being transgender on TV and decide that's what they want to be based on absolutely nothing at all. It's a decision that needs to be made when the person is of a mature age and is absolutely certain imo.

On the other hand, it's incredibly damaging to your psyche to be repressed for what you are even as a child. The gender roles are so much more set as children as well, so when a child knows it's different it is absolutely forced a lot more than at an adult age into the thought process that something is wrong with them and that they are in no way normal. They can't be/do what tey want to be because they are not like that - and get told so every day.

Offline Si

  • General Member
  • I dont handle change well.
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #63 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:12:27 pm »
You don't have to call it anything man just let people be.
Bearings Straight!

Offline Kaizero

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #64 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:13:10 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.

It's not like that though. To put it (very basically to make the example clear) in football terms. You're a Newcastle fan. You know you're a Newcastle fan. But you're not allowed to be a Newcastle fan - you have to be an Arsenal fan. If you dress up in Newcastle gear, people will just mock you, look at you funny and treat you like an outcast of society. You're an Arsenal fan after all. You can never be a Newcastle fan, no matter how much you know you are a Newcastle fan.

Right so the issue is with the society they find themselves in, not what biological bits they have. My point exactly.

You're saying you don't need to change your gender biologically, which is a thought process that is similar to saying "just be a man, you don't need to be a woman just 'cause you feel like it."

Offline Toondave

  • General Member
  • There's a little bit of Toondave in all of us
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #65 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:14:03 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.

It's not like that though. To put it (very basically to make the example clear) in football terms. You're a Newcastle fan. You know you're a Newcastle fan. But you're not allowed to be a Newcastle fan - you have to be an Arsenal fan. If you dress up in Newcastle gear, people will just mock you, look at you funny and treat you like an outcast of society. You're an Arsenal fan after all. You can never be a Newcastle fan, no matter how much you know you are a Newcastle fan.

Right so the issue is with the society they find themselves in, not what biological bits they have. My point exactly.

You're saying you don't need to change your gender biologically, which is a thought process that is similar to saying "just be a man, you don't need to be a woman just 'cause you feel like it."

No man listen. Forget the label man and woman. Be whatever you want - if the link between gender and sex is purely social then there's no need to cut it off is what I'm saying.

Offline B-more Mag

  • General Member
  • Wash your hands … immediately.
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #66 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:15:12 pm »
I mean, some people feel they are the wrong sex, though--not necessarily the wrong gender.

Offline Northerngimp

  • Brexit W*nker
  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #67 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:15:56 pm »
This subject is quite disheartening to discuss given the factual horrors trans people go through on an everyday basis. To even begin to discuss people with mental issues (cat people) on the same grounds as trans people sickens me to the very core. These conditions are in no way similar and should not be discussed in the same thread. I would suggest, like in most cases where one group of people feel uneasy around another, to spend some time with them and learn their troubles - or at least educate oneself on the historical struggles of that group of people before dumbing down an intricate problem into "they have a penis so they're a dude, lol - f*** em for saying something else! Some people think they're a cat, haha. Why don't we start allowing cats in men's rooms?"

I assume most people see how these issues are so separate you'd need to be crazy to think otherwise.

Relax Lion-o .  I was kidding about.  See my other posts in the thread.

Offline Kaizero

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #68 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:16:03 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.

It's not like that though. To put it (very basically to make the example clear) in football terms. You're a Newcastle fan. You know you're a Newcastle fan. But you're not allowed to be a Newcastle fan - you have to be an Arsenal fan. If you dress up in Newcastle gear, people will just mock you, look at you funny and treat you like an outcast of society. You're an Arsenal fan after all. You can never be a Newcastle fan, no matter how much you know you are a Newcastle fan.

Right so the issue is with the society they find themselves in, not what biological bits they have. My point exactly.

You're saying you don't need to change your gender biologically, which is a thought process that is similar to saying "just be a man, you don't need to be a woman just 'cause you feel like it."

No man listen. Forget the label man and woman. Be whatever you want - if the link between gender and sex is purely social then there's no need to cut it off is what I'm saying.

It is not purely social. What the f***, man.

Offline Kaizero

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #69 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:17:58 pm »
This subject is quite disheartening to discuss given the factual horrors trans people go through on an everyday basis. To even begin to discuss people with mental issues (cat people) on the same grounds as trans people sickens me to the very core. These conditions are in no way similar and should not be discussed in the same thread. I would suggest, like in most cases where one group of people feel uneasy around another, to spend some time with them and learn their troubles - or at least educate oneself on the historical struggles of that group of people before dumbing down an intricate problem into "they have a penis so they're a dude, lol - f*** em for saying something else! Some people think they're a cat, haha. Why don't we start allowing cats in men's rooms?"

I assume most people see how these issues are so separate you'd need to be crazy to think otherwise.

Relax Lion-o .  I was kidding about.  See my other posts in the thread.

If I was only going after you then I'd have quoted you O0

Offline Darth Crooks

  • General Member
  • Merry Crooksmas
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #70 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:18:12 pm »
Human psychology and socio-cultural identity in not an exact science shocker.


Offline Klaus

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #71 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:18:45 pm »
We can come to whatever conclusions we want in this thread like, but i only think somebody in that situation can really explain what is going on in their minds.

Offline B-more Mag

  • General Member
  • Wash your hands … immediately.
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #72 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:20:20 pm »
This subject is quite disheartening to discuss given the factual horrors trans people go through on an everyday basis. To even begin to discuss people with mental issues (cat people) on the same grounds as trans people sickens me to the very core. These conditions are in no way similar and should not be discussed in the same thread. I would suggest, like in most cases where one group of people feel uneasy around another, to spend some time with them and learn their troubles - or at least educate oneself on the historical struggles of that group of people before dumbing down an intricate problem into "they have a penis so they're a dude, lol - f*** em for saying something else! Some people think they're a cat, haha. Why don't we start allowing cats in men's rooms?"

I assume most people see how these issues are so separate you'd need to be crazy to think otherwise.

Relax Lion-o .  I was kidding about.  See my other posts in the thread.

If I was only going after you then I'd have quoted you O0

Was it the sandwiches?

Offline Kaizero

  • General Member
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #73 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:21:20 pm »
We can come to whatever conclusions we want in this thread like, but i only think somebody in that situation can really explain what is going on in their minds.

Hence my comment about people needing to actually meet trans people and realize they are humans just like everyone else.

Offline Toondave

  • General Member
  • There's a little bit of Toondave in all of us
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #74 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 08:24:34 pm »
What I often wonder is why the desire to change biological gender, if gender is merely a social construct?  So you feel feminine but have a penis and you accept that gender is just a social construct - then why undergo surgery to conform to that construct? Just be a woman with a penis who dresses like a woman.

It's not like that though. To put it (very basically to make the example clear) in football terms. You're a Newcastle fan. You know you're a Newcastle fan. But you're not allowed to be a Newcastle fan - you have to be an Arsenal fan. If you dress up in Newcastle gear, people will just mock you, look at you funny and treat you like an outcast of society. You're an Arsenal fan after all. You can never be a Newcastle fan, no matter how much you know you are a Newcastle fan.

Right so the issue is with the society they find themselves in, not what biological bits they have. My point exactly.

You're saying you don't need to change your gender biologically, which is a thought process that is similar to saying "just be a man, you don't need to be a woman just 'cause you feel like it."

No man listen. Forget the label man and woman. Be whatever you want - if the link between gender and sex is purely social then there's no need to cut it off is what I'm saying.

It is not purely social. What the f***, man.

Isn't that the whole point


Look.

'man' = male sex+ masculine social role

'woman' = female sex + feminine social role

and my point is that instead of conforming to this dichotomy (i.e. adhering to the very social constructs that are the bane of these people) and encouraging this to be the normal route, society should get to a point where

male sex + feminine social role = "x"

is a perfectly valid situation to be in. c.f. the link I posted earlier. I think we're a long way off this position.