Author Topic: Sex, Gender and Identity  (Read 38886 times)

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Offline Shay's Given Tim Flowers

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Sex, Gender and Identity
« on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 01:25:51 pm »
Following on from discussion in the US Politics thread:

A place to discuss the changing role of gender and sex. Hopefully this can be an open and tolerant discussion.


My two pence for what it's worth...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08ff180

There was an excellent discussion about gender/sex in the cake or biscuit episode of the Philosophers Arms.

I would class myself as trans-skeptic with particular concerns for young children who describe themselves as a different gender/sex at a very young age. My problem is how people can identify their sex as something else without ever actually being that something else. It's just never sat comfortably with me. I would never seek to stop someone from changing their sex as ultimately individual autonomy is most important.

Anyway, for someone who has been skeptical about these issues before I found the show to be eye-opening and perspective altering.

What do people see as the significance of gender in today's society?

What does the future hold for new gender identities? Transgender individuals? How compatible are these concepts and how adaptable is society to changes in the gender/sex landscape?

Offline Si

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 01:39:30 pm »
Definitely think there are no absolutes anymore and that it's all just a spectrum and it's just about where you fall on it. In the past people had to conform but now with society hopefully being more open more people are being honest about how they identify.
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Offline Northerngimp

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 01:44:15 pm »
I have no issues with any of it, I don't think we should be putting laws in tho...Its peoples minds that need changing.

Just a few things I struggle with, how do you identify yourselves as no gender (none gender specific)  and people seeing themselves as being born as animals in human bodies?


Offline Beren

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 01:44:29 pm »
It'd be a massive step forward if we can get past where people s*** and start discussing how sports would work.

:thup:

Let's start with our strengths, forum.

Offline Shay's Given Tim Flowers

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 01:50:29 pm »
I have no issues with any of it, I don't think we should be putting laws in tho...Its peoples minds that need changing.

Just a few things I struggle with, how do you identify yourselves as no gender (none gender specific)  and people seeing themselves as being born as animals in human bodies?

What about Laws that protect from discrimination?

Offline B-more Mag

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 01:55:49 pm »
As a political issue the bathroom thing is a red herring. It's not as if sexual predators can't just saunter into a women's bathroom and perv out right now if they really have a mind to. And allowing trans people to use the bathroom that matches their gender isn't going to give sexual predators license to do so--if they're in there creeping on people it's still going to be illegal. It's just inconvenient to conservative people to have to confront the fact that not everyone is exactly the f***ing same as they are, and for all their try-hard libertarian signaling, they just can't deal--much better to just degrade the people that are different.

Offline dabe

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 01:56:23 pm »
I have no issues with any of it, I don't think we should be putting laws in tho...Its peoples minds that need changing.

Just a few things I struggle with, how do you identify yourselves as no gender (none gender specific)  and people seeing themselves as being born as animals in human bodies?

Species dysphoria...got me too, no idea where you start with that.

I think as it stands, the terms are too conflated/blurred for most laymen. Gender/Sex are used interchangeably and it really messes with the conversation. Especially when a lot of the initial surface arguments are fixated on genitals. Also the non-binary, gender fluid stuff tries to blur the lines of assumed gender behavioural stereotypes, which further complicates things. Not to mention the kids stuff, tribalism on the internet or Kelly Maloney...

It's a nuanced debate that I'm not sure has a readily workable solution currently.

Offline Shay's Given Tim Flowers

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 01:59:56 pm »
As a political issue the bathroom thing is a red herring. It's not as if sexual predators can't just saunter into a women's bathroom and perv out right now if they really have a mind to. And allowing trans people to use the bathroom that matches their gender isn't going to give sexual predators license to do so--if they're in there creeping on people it's still going to be illegal. It's just inconvenient to conservative people to have to confront the fact that not everyone is exactly the f***ing same as they are, and for all their try-hard libertarian signaling, they just can't deal--much better to just degrade the people that are different.

:clap: to the bold.

Can't say I agree with the remainder though. I am socially progressive and you are quite right that not everyone is the same. That said I am not sure the current framework really adequately accommodates people who in this context, are different.

Offline kingkerouac

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:02:37 pm »
As a political issue the bathroom thing is a red herring. It's not as if sexual predators can't just saunter into a women's bathroom and perv out right now if they really have a mind to. And allowing trans people to use the bathroom that matches their gender isn't going to give sexual predators license to do so--if they're in there creeping on people it's still going to be illegal. It's just inconvenient to conservative people to have to confront the fact that not everyone is exactly the f***ing same as they are, and for all their try-hard libertarian signaling, they just can't deal--much better to just degrade the people that are different.

A sexual predator is going to do that anyway. He's a sexual predator.
We already have laws on assault, rape and murder. But we still have assaulters, rapists and murderers.
If the LGBT lobby wants it, they know best.

Offline AfroP

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:04:25 pm »
I have no issues with any of it, I don't think we should be putting laws in tho...Its peoples minds that need changing.

Just a few things I struggle with, how do you identify yourselves as no gender (none gender specific)  and people seeing themselves as being born as animals in human bodies?



I agree here. if people feel they have been born the wrong sex and wish to change later in life then thats a choice that they make because its what they feel.
I dont get "gender neutral or "none binary" how can you not identify as male or female?
its not the pressures of society forcing you to choose, its the laws of nature. you are one or the other.

in my limited reading and knowledge, it seems to be more of a fad with people of studenty age, much like being bi-sexual was a few years back.
i just personally dont understand it.   

Offline B-more Mag

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:17:16 pm »
As a political issue the bathroom thing is a red herring. It's not as if sexual predators can't just saunter into a women's bathroom and perv out right now if they really have a mind to. And allowing trans people to use the bathroom that matches their gender isn't going to give sexual predators license to do so--if they're in there creeping on people it's still going to be illegal. It's just inconvenient to conservative people to have to confront the fact that not everyone is exactly the f***ing same as they are, and for all their try-hard libertarian signaling, they just can't deal--much better to just degrade the people that are different.

:clap: to the bold.

Can't say I agree with the remainder though. I am socially progressive and you are quite right that not everyone is the same. That said I am not sure the current framework really adequately accommodates people who in this context, are different.

Yeah--I wasn't clear with the second sentence at all. What I wanted to get at is that it seems to me that the people complaining about making changes for trans people are really just afraid or unwilling to deal with reality. The reality being that: (i) there are trans people who are currently degraded by not being permitted to use the bathroom that matches their gender; and (ii) keeping things the way they are now isn't going to stop bad people from doing bad things.

Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:18:11 pm »
Glad there's a discussion on this in here. It is quite a big subject, despite the fact it's a small fraction of any population. When you consider how society has been constructed for how long it has with regards to gender, roles, stereotypes, rights etc, why it has been how it is, why people believe how they do... We're not so much at a turning point in history with regards those who consider themselves either trans, gender fluid, binary etc etc etc, but maybe more of a turning point in what we need to understand, how we understand it and what we've neglected for so long. People are changing a lot faster than their surroundings are and that's causing issues. Maybe changing is the wrong wrd. In fact it definitely is. Maybe I mean people are more aware that the world needs to change with regards to this, and are being made aware a lot quicker than we're changing.

Going to take hours for me to say and discuss all I'd want to in this thread, so will leave it for anotyher time and get back to work. But just recently I watched a programme on BBC1 about transgender kids, mainly in America, which brought up an awful lot of questions, especially with regards the treatment of children at such an early age. Many pro trans people in America would condone sex change operations on children who expressed gender dysmorphia, or identidfying with another gender at a horrifcally young age imo. There were psychiatrists who would say these children need spoken to, understood, helped to live with and understand their feelings and not an irreversable operation. What their feelings meant... Which to me was common sense. These children were 6-10. Madness. A lot of pro trans people were just shouting "Conversion therapy!!", which if you listened to what was rpesented anyway, was not true. I'm not saying what was shown and what was presented was all there was. But how anyone can say "this 7yo child is the wrong gender, change them now otherwise you're prejudiced" is beyond me. Some really quite disappinting things coming from a few pro trans sources and a couple of trans friends/acquentances on facebook in response to a statement made abotu the programme by my gf. Have quite a few gay friends in Leeds too that obviously spend a lot of time in that kind of "community" (hate that term), and some very negative things have been said by a few of them, some not so negative, about recent attitudes, developments etc.

It's a complex issue where in these people don't at all live in a world that's really accomadating to them. It's madness. I had someone laugh at me for suggesting a third option for gender in a form not so long ago. This world is set up black and white when it comes to gender, but I think we all know that's far from how it is in reality.
« Last Edit: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:33:33 pm by Super Duper Branko Strupar »
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make

Offline Northerngimp

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:19:02 pm »
I have no issues with any of it, I don't think we should be putting laws in tho...Its peoples minds that need changing.

Just a few things I struggle with, how do you identify yourselves as no gender (none gender specific)  and people seeing themselves as being born as animals in human bodies?

What about Laws that protect from discrimination?

In an ideal world everyone just accepts everyone as is but you are probably right that we as country need have to avoid discrimination.  So some form of employment law will need to be created.  I'm sure we already rules in our place.

 

Offline Kid Icarus

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:20:47 pm »
Looking in the U.S thread, it seems that most people who take issue with it are thinking about how the situation will be exploited by those looking to do so, or undermined by those who take things too far, rather than concentrating on the common sense approach to how it will benefit people who were born as another gender to the one they genuinely identify with. There are always going to be people who undermine issues and give ammo to those looking to oppress a group by pointing out how ridiculous they all are based on one section alone, see Tumblr Feminism/Feminism, Leftist intolerance to intolerance being seen as hypocrisy etc.

I have no idea how these people feel, but I think we all should have enough humanity to take it at face value and not assume they're lying, or to allow assumptions about those supposedly looking to exploit a system to be the reason to stop it from benefiting those who will benefit.
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Online Klaus

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:21:03 pm »
I'm going to go through the whole procedure just so I can use the lasses changing rooms like, totally worth it

Offline POOT

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:24:50 pm »
As a political issue the bathroom thing is a red herring. It's not as if sexual predators can't just saunter into a women's bathroom and perv out right now if they really have a mind to. And allowing trans people to use the bathroom that matches their gender isn't going to give sexual predators license to do so--if they're in there creeping on people it's still going to be illegal.

That's fair enough, that :thup:

The very little I've thought about it I've probably over-thought.
Never look down on someone, unless you're helping them up!

Offline Hanshithispantz

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:27:26 pm »
It will change, if you watch media from the 90s when talking about homosexuality it's f***ing ludicrous now some of the stuff said :lol: Humanity has a habit of moving on. The predator argument is obviously bullshit, but some women will feel uncomfortable with a trans-woman using the same bathroom as them - and they effectively won't have a say. Whether or not that matters is another story - I'm guessing the answer will eventually be no.

I feel for anyone who doesn't fit fully into society, but I don't agree at all that it's as simple as man feels like woman, therefore man is woman in every conceivable way. No law or rule should ever not treat this person fully as a woman. As I've said, I do think this will eventually change within a few decades.

Offline Kid Icarus

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:37:46 pm »
Aye, hopefully society moves on to the point where our generation is seen as bigoted as f*** because we think people who identify as sandwiches are simply mentally ill and shouldn't be pandered to.
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Offline Mike

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:43:53 pm »
Wait.

What kind of sandwich?

Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:45:20 pm »
:lol:
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make

Offline POOT

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:46:18 pm »
I don't think society (as a majority) is as narrow-minded as they were with homosexuality. People will be far more more curious rather than damning.

Course there's always the completely narrow-minded that still think women are lesser etc. But on a whole trans-gender people will have a far easier fight than those that battled homophobia. Probably have to avoid social media, like.
Never look down on someone, unless you're helping them up!

Offline Si

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  • I dont handle change well.
Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:47:25 pm »


I have no issues with any of it, I don't think we should be putting laws in tho...Its peoples minds that need changing.

Just a few things I struggle with, how do you identify yourselves as no gender (none gender specific)  and people seeing themselves as being born as animals in human bodies?



I agree here. if people feel they have been born the wrong sex and wish to change later in life then thats a choice that they make because its what they feel.
I dont get "gender neutral or "none binary" how can you not identify as male or female?
its not the pressures of society forcing you to choose, its the laws of nature. you are one or the other.

in my limited reading and knowledge, it seems to be more of a fad with people of studenty age, much like being bi-sexual was a few years back.
i just personally dont understand it.

Laws of nature and fad :anguish:
Bearings Straight!

Offline Mike

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:48:29 pm »
The same people keep getting made, the targets they dedicate themselves to belittling and discriminating against changes. The only real shift is that members of the groups that used to be s*** graduate to being members of the group that hate for no reason.

Offline cp40

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:49:12 pm »
The Human Race is going off the rails.

Offline B-more Mag

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Re: Sex, Gender and Identity
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday 22 February 2017, 02:49:36 pm »
Wait.

What kind of sandwich?

 :lol: The reuben vs. rachel implications are mind boggling.