Topic: why is it so hard to do a Brexit

[Kimbo]

That general election was so bizarre, even more so in retrospect. It was the Brexit general election(even though labour tried their best not to talk about it), and over 82% voted for parties that wanted to proceed with leaving the EU. It's the best argument against a 2nd referendum, Brexit has won two public votes already.

[BlufPurdi]

My parents were trained as doctors in Nigeria and have been working in the NHS for 30 years. A paediatrician and a surgeon. Healing children and physical ailments across Britain since 1988.
So what she said in this interview did not sit well with me. 🤮 https://t.co/vLyKjPoj1R

— Femi (@Femi_Sorry) January 20, 2019

I've little time for him, but that's pretty f***ing outrageous.

I mean, it is, isn't it?

[BlufPurdi]

That general election was so bizarre, even more so in retrospect. It was the Brexit general election(even though labour tried their best not to talk about it), and over 82% voted for parties that wanted to proceed with leaving the EU. It's the best argument against a 2nd referendum, Brexit has won two public votes already.

If it happens, I honestly think we're going to regret it.  They, within Labour, who support a second referendum are definitely not reading the situation very well.  It's in the polling.  Many do want a second referendum, many do want to remain, but they also played their part in the policy that was decided and have stuck by Corbyn and Starmer throughout.  They'd much prefer a GE first, and a close union with the EU rather than simply being in the EU at the expense of getting into government.  That is reflected in national polling, which has only ever seen Labour drop about 6-7 points, despite this apparent betrayal he is leading against his own members. 

I fear they, and they're my side really so I should say we, are so caught up in their own little echo chamber, they're not seeing the growing Lexit base, a base that I've noticed are actually keen on no deal "so Corbyn/Labour can negotiate with the EU".  I've seen this from fairly respectable Labour people, too.  Admittedly only activist levels, but definitely growing.  Leave will win again, I am almost absolutely sure of it. 

[Darth Crooks]

HB is a poisonous cur - same mould as oakeshott and the like. Offer f*** all as journalists other than populist bile and zeitgeist bandwagoning.

[mrmojorisin75]

He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

[neesy111]

He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

It's a window dressing exercise by May to make it look like she's doing something.  The other parties should call her out for wasting their time.

[mrmojorisin75]

He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

It's a window dressing exercise by May to make it look like she's doing something.  The other parties should call her out for wasting their time.

Yep. In retrospect Corbyn should have got everyone he could to do the same thing he has imo. She's p*ssed all over the people who have met her anyways.

[leffe186]

My parents were trained as doctors in Nigeria and have been working in the NHS for 30 years. A paediatrician and a surgeon. Healing children and physical ailments across Britain since 1988.
So what she said in this interview did not sit well with me. 🤮 https://t.co/vLyKjPoj1R

— Femi (@Femi_Sorry) January 20, 2019

I've little time for him, but that's pretty f***ing outrageous.

I mean, it is, isn't it?

For some reason I thought she was an MP, and got really annoyed .

Turns out her father was a GP, which gives an interesting twist. Overt racism aside, the key thing that struck me was the idea that "there are thousands of young people in this country perfectly willing and able to become doctors who can't get trained." So why not? "Foreign" doctors are not preventing people getting positions - there are thousands of vacancies in the NHS. Do foreign doctors depress pay levels? Well the government controls those and had actually implemented a pay cap itself, so that's not their fault. The BMJ this week said that we should "let more overseas doctors work in the NHS to fill shortages."

What's the betting that one of the key reasons that "thousands of young people" can't get trained is money?

[BlufPurdi]

Aye, of course it is.  Mind working at Student Loans, and medical students, nurses, they were the most heartbreaking to deal with.  Get f*** all help from the government, and pushed towards NHS bursaries which were a f***ing pittance.  Like, any normal, random student can get a tonne more than they do.  It's mental, honestly f***ing insane. 

[sadnesstan]

I, for one, was a massive fan of FOMA. The number of Brazilians, Colombians, Argentinians, Bolivians, Venezuelans, Chileans, Peruvians etc. that I know wouldn't have been possible without it.

But on a serious note. The argument that immigration is an economic benefit to the country is, clearly true. But, anybody working is a benefit to the economy. People earning and spending money is the economy. But surely if the people "coming in" are working for less, then they are not as beneficial as somebody here doing the job and earning more. If those "coming in" drive down wages overall, then everybody earns, and therefore spends less.

I'm not arguing against immigration, culturally we benefit more than all the money in the world could ever provide (even if they cared to try), I just think that, as usual,, the economic argument is disingenuous.

[mrmojorisin75]

My parents were trained as doctors in Nigeria and have been working in the NHS for 30 years. A paediatrician and a surgeon. Healing children and physical ailments across Britain since 1988.
So what she said in this interview did not sit well with me. 🤮 https://t.co/vLyKjPoj1R

— Femi (@Femi_Sorry) January 20, 2019

I've little time for him, but that's pretty f***ing outrageous.

I mean, it is, isn't it?

For some reason I thought she was an MP, and got really annoyed .

Turns out her father was a GP, which gives an interesting twist. Overt racism aside, the key thing that struck me was the idea that "there are thousands of young people in this country perfectly willing and able to become doctors who can't get trained." So why not? "Foreign" doctors are not preventing people getting positions - there are thousands of vacancies in the NHS. Do foreign doctors depress pay levels? Well the government controls those and had actually implemented a pay cap itself, so that's not their fault. The BMJ this week said that we should "let more overseas doctors work in the NHS to fill shortages."

What's the betting that one of the key reasons that "thousands of young people" can't get trained is money?

Classic argument that's got us here isn't it?

NHS is full of forrin nurses, EU is bad as FoM is preventing good, white patriots getting those jobs.

Wait, you Tory c***s have decimated the NHS and funding so people here can't afford to train, and if they can then the pay and conditions are absolute s**** so why would they?

Everything comes back to Tory policies in the end. Everything.

[BlufPurdi]

He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

The only thing is, it gifted his rivals an easy goal.  It was remarkable the similarity between all the comments made.  From ardent Blairites, to hard-right Tories, "he'll meet with Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA but not our PM?"

I'm not suggesting it was some coordinated attack for what it's worth.  It doesn't have to be, without wanting to get into a different conspiracy () the deck is always going to be stacked against him from a media perspective.  With the benefit of hindsight, he should have gone to meet her just to say f*** you. 

[mrmojorisin75]

He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

The only thing is, it gifted his rivals an easy goal.  Its was remarkable the similarity between all the comments made.  From ardent Blairites, to hard-right Tories, "he'll meet with Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA but not our PM?"

I'm not suggesting it was some coordinated attack for what it's worth.  It doesn't have to be, without wanting to get into a different conspiracy () the deck is always going to be stacked against him in a media perspective.  With the benefit of hindsight, he should have gone to meet her just to say f*** you.

Yeah, true. Frustrating that it turned the attention immediately off May tbh.

[sadnesstan]

He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

The only thing is, it gifted his rivals an easy goal.  Its was remarkable the similarity between all the comments made.  From ardent Blairites, to hard-right Tories, "he'll meet with Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA but not our PM?"

I'm not suggesting it was some coordinated attack for what it's worth.  It doesn't have to be, without wanting to get into a different conspiracy () the deck is always going to be stacked against him in a media perspective.  With the benefit of hindsight, he should have gone to meet her just to say f*** you.

Aye. The t***s were asked to debate a vote of no confidence in the government, and they spent their time debating a vote of confidence in the leader of the opposition. The whole house can burn down for me. As long as Rebecca gets out.

[sadnesstan]

It's called "project fear" where in order to secure victory you avoid discussion about the benefits of your victory and focus on the consequences of your defeat.

[leffe186]

I, for one, was a massive fan of FOMA. The number of Brazilians, Colombians, Argentinians, Bolivians, Venezuelans, Chileans, Peruvians etc. that I know wouldn't have been possible without it.

But on a serious note. The argument that immigration is an economic benefit to the country is, clearly true. But, anybody working is a benefit to the economy. People earning and spending money is the economy. But surely if the people "coming in" are working for less, then they are not as beneficial as somebody here doing the job and earning more. If those "coming in" drive down wages overall, then everybody earns, and therefore spends less.

I'm not arguing against immigration, culturally we benefit more than all the money in the world could ever provide (even if they cared to try), I just think that, as usual,, the economic argument is disingenuous.

It's not necessarily disingenuous, just complex:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/immigration-uk-economy-what-are-the-benefits-stats-theresa-may-amber-rudd-tory-conference-speeches-a7346121.html

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2014/nov/positive-economic-impact-uk-immigration-european-union-new-evidence

Wage reduction is part of the equation, certainly.

[ikri]

My parents were trained as doctors in Nigeria and have been working in the NHS for 30 years. A paediatrician and a surgeon. Healing children and physical ailments across Britain since 1988.
So what she said in this interview did not sit well with me. 🤮 https://t.co/vLyKjPoj1R

— Femi (@Femi_Sorry) January 20, 2019

I've little time for him, but that's pretty f***ing outrageous.

I mean, it is, isn't it?

Julia Heartless-b****** saying something outrageous again?  I'm shocked.

[Disco]

Aye, of course it is.  Mind working at Student Loans, and medical students, nurses, they were the most heartbreaking to deal with.  Get f*** all help from the government, and pushed towards NHS bursaries which were a f***ing pittance.  Like, any normal, random student can get a tonne more than they do.  It's mental, honestly f***ing insane. 

They’ve been scrapped for nurses. Get a nice wad of SL debt now instead.

[geordiesteve710]

I think I'm probably missing something but is there any reason why he couldn't have gone in with the other party leaders and if (when) she refused to compromise come out and issue a statement, ideally a joint one with the other leaders explaining she's not open to compromise on her deal, isn't prepared to take no deal off the table so there's not much point in carrying on discussions on this basis.

[BlufPurdi]

I think I'm probably missing something but is there any reason why he couldn't have gone in with the other party leaders and if (when) she refused to compromise come out and issue a statement, ideally a joint one with the other leaders explaining she's not open to compromise on her deal, isn't prepared to take no deal off the table so there's not much point in carrying on discussions on this basis.

There's no reason he couldn't have done that.  It wasn't a wrong move from him as such, the results all ended the same for every idiot that went to see her, but he gave himself another bad PR run. 

[Shearergol]

New thread time?

[BlufPurdi]

Should we just keep it all in the UK thread?  Or make another?  I don't feel decisive enough to make the call.

Had hoped it would be done.

[neesy111]

Should we just keep it all in the UK thread?  Or make another?  I don't feel decisive enough to make the call.

Had hoped it would be done.

We'll still be commentating on it in 10 years time.

[BlufPurdi]

Well that's kind of the point.  It's so intrinsically part of British politics now that it'll be forever talked about, or at least for another few years.  Can't say I feel it's a seperate debate anymore, but your lot's call unless one of the other admin make a new thread.  In which case it's their call.

[Adam^]

This utter s*** show deserves its own thread tbh.