Poll

What would be the best option?

Theresa May's deal
Walk away with no deal
Forget it and stay in

Author Topic: why is it so hard to do a Brexit  (Read 574176 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline newsted

  • General Member
  • Everything Louder Than Everything Else. RIP Lemmy.
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21350 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 04:17:51 pm »
Sigh. The whole problem is that most people are stupid. They may mean well, but they make bad decisions. This is why referenda are indefensible. David Cameron is a country-f***ing c***, and deserves to go down in history as such. IMO.
:) As you were.

Offline newsted

  • General Member
  • Everything Louder Than Everything Else. RIP Lemmy.
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21351 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 04:19:24 pm »
:lol: Of course. How can I stop this happening?
:) As you were.

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21352 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 04:22:15 pm »
again, i wasn't here for all the pre-ref build up and such but the f*** did everyone agree that shitshow?  40 years of integration and nobody, f***ing nobody thought it might be a bit tricky?
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline newsted

  • General Member
  • Everything Louder Than Everything Else. RIP Lemmy.
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21353 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 04:27:19 pm »
Well, non-racists and non-idiots could see it a f***ing mile off. Turns out that's 48%. f***. Here we are. Good luck.
:) As you were.

Offline OpenC

  • General Member
  • You might still see them in the desert
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21354 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 04:29:43 pm »
Politics and international diplomacy in 'a bit tricky' shocker [emoji38]

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21355 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 04:43:18 pm »
Politics and international diplomacy in 'a bit tricky' shocker [emoji38]

well no i mean it's clearly a 2 stage process but they've treated it as a one stage process and here we are, benefit of hindsight i guess but surely someone was pointing this stuff out at the time?

:okay:
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline OpenC

  • General Member
  • You might still see them in the desert
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21356 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 04:56:25 pm »
I mean, implementing a socialist government under Labour's guidance will be a bit awkward as well, but I'm not going to object to how many stages they make it or question whether people thought it through properly beforehand

Just sayin'

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21357 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 04:58:26 pm »
yeeeeeah ok
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline OpenC

  • General Member
  • You might still see them in the desert
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21358 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 05:29:54 pm »
I'm sure you understand the point I'm making though mojo

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21359 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 05:31:19 pm »
i am, but it bears very little relevance to my own tbh
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline OpenC

  • General Member
  • You might still see them in the desert
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21360 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 05:32:42 pm »
Apparently you don't, then

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21361 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 05:44:22 pm »
you're comparing something that has a naturally built in check & balance every few years (GE) to something that is going to change the course of our history for generations and they didn't think to build in provisions about whether it would be a great idea to have a look at things once we knew what it meant

honestly man, what are you defending, are you honestly of the opinion that the referendum was fit for purpose?
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline OpenC

  • General Member
  • You might still see them in the desert
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21362 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 05:52:41 pm »
Not at all, the referendum was laughably poor and I've always argued it shouldn't have happened.  We have, however, had a general election since and it didn't help one bit.  We've already had two stages, the second one was as bad or worse than the first.

I'm saying that complexity of process is under virtually no circumstances a compelling argument against political change; and that your own level of interest in seeing that change take place is directly proportional to your own perception of whether it's possible to achieve without destroying civilisation.

I 100% guarantee you that if Labour in their current guise win the next general election, tories countrywide will immediately start using virtually all the same arguments that remainers have been for months to stop them 'destroying our country'.  Act of national self harm; people didn't understand what they were voting for; fooled by an old charmer with a gift for appearing honest and straight talking; going to cost us a fortune; will affect the country for generations; old-fashioned approach that makes us the laughing stock of the world; all of it.  And you won't believe a word of it, because it's something you believe in (Labour, not Corbyn so much any more obvs).

You have a lot of faith in parliamentary process mitigating against bad public decisions but as you've pointed out yourself dozens of times, five years is a long time and a lot can be f***ed up during it.
« Last Edit: Sunday 16 September 2018, 07:25:38 pm by OpenC »

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21363 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 07:14:27 pm »
I'm saying that complexity of process is under virtually no circumstances a compelling argument against political change

certainly not, but the understanding of the magnitude of that change should have been built into the referendum process it's as clear as day
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline OpenC

  • General Member
  • You might still see them in the desert
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21364 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 07:20:18 pm »
What, like a disclaimer on the ballot saying 'warning: this option will be awkward to implement if it wins and we're not quite sure how we're going to do it tbh, probably best vote the other way'?

What about the rest of the post?

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21365 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 07:31:31 pm »
What, like a disclaimer on the ballot saying 'warning: this option will be awkward to implement if it wins and we're not quite sure how we're going to do it tbh, probably best vote the other way'?

What about the rest of the post?


feel like you're wilfully not understanding me here :lol:   there should have been a proper 2 step process, vote to withdraw and vote to accept the terms of future arrangements (and what to do if not accepted), so we haven't had a 2 step process at all like...what we've had is OUT and then everyone that voted OUT shouting OUT ASAP since the moment it happened, and everyone voted REMAIN shouting IN since it happened

just not sure where you're going with the rest of it, as i've already stated checks and balance is built into the GE process...i hate the tories and the fact they won the last vote but i'm not calling for a GE for spurious reasons because i didn't like the result...everyone knows the terms of that and that there'll be a chance to reverse what was decided 5 years

and yes a lot of damage can be done in 5 years...a shitload more can be done in the decades it's likely to take to recover from this shitshow
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline OpenC

  • General Member
  • You might still see them in the desert
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21366 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 07:48:58 pm »
No, I do understand that, and I said all along (and again a couple of posts up) that it should never have gone to referendum, and the referendum we had was pitiful.  No objection to that at all :thup:  Here we are, though, and as far as I'm concerned, though, we have had another shot at things, with a General Election that was shamefully handled by both major parties and put us no further forward at all.  How many more events like that do we need to see?  What makes you think that anyone other than the now irrelevant Lib Dems are now brave enough to do anything in respect of a further referendum on clarity?  Do we just keep having referendums until we get the right answer, just like old Nigel said?

I'm saying two things: first, that the checks and balances that you seem to think are implied by a General Election aren't necessarily so (see: tory privatisations continuing under Labour in the past; current tories still carping on about The Mess They Inherited, six f***ing years down the line; your own observations that the tories have f***ed the country up with their policies and the very real possibility that Labour, on getting in, will discover that perhaps they can't be as gung-ho or radical as they hoped, just like Blair who privatised me). 

The other thing I'm saying is that the noise people are making about this whole thing being unfair, badly organised, public was misinformed, not clearly defined enough, etc etc etc, is all literally exactly the same things that conservative voters would say if Labour got in, because they're the things that people always say when they lose votes :dontknow:  It's painted as a decision which will affect the country and the economy for decades to come, and maybe it is - but the difference is that a significant proportion of the people who are making this noise would be quite prepared to give Labour's potential economy-crashing-for-decades alternative scenario a shot because they personally want to see it happen. 

To be clear, though, the whole thing should 100% have been spelled out more clearly right at the start of the process in terms of public decision-making going forward.  I couldn't agree more with that :thup:

Online Dave

  • Administrator
Re: Brexit means no-deal Brexit?
« Reply #21367 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 10:24:42 pm »
People on this piece on the BBC news asking why we haven't left yet. :spit:

HOW THE f*** DOES 'IT'S QUITE COMPLICATED AND THAT' STILL NEED EXPLAINING FOR ABSOLUTE f***'S SAKE

Offline chopey

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #21368 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 10:51:51 pm »
Brexit can't be all bad, surely there must be some benefits.

Offline Klaus

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #21369 on: Sunday 16 September 2018, 11:04:35 pm »
I’m struggling to see any benefits so far. According to Moggy we might know if it has been a success in fifty years time :lol:

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #21370 on: Monday 17 September 2018, 07:18:24 am »
No, I do understand that, and I said all along (and again a couple of posts up) that it should never have gone to referendum, and the referendum we had was pitiful.  No objection to that at all :thup:  Here we are, though, and as far as I'm concerned, though, we have had another shot at things, with a General Election that was shamefully handled by both major parties and put us no further forward at all.  How many more events like that do we need to see?  What makes you think that anyone other than the now irrelevant Lib Dems are now brave enough to do anything in respect of a further referendum on clarity?  Do we just keep having referendums until we get the right answer, just like old Nigel said?

Nobody wants "another shot at things" and we haven't had what I'm talking about.  Leaving all else aside there was a vote to withdraw from the EU, the terms of our future relationship and some would say the very immediate future of our actual country rests on what our "deal" is.  The GE was just 2 sets of w*****s saying we'd do a gr8 brexit vote for iz.  There should have been provision in there for approval of this and what to do if the people didn't like the stink.  I don't think this is really that controversial a thing to say OC yet we're still arguing around it.

I'm saying two things: first, that the checks and balances that you seem to think are implied by a General Election aren't necessarily so (see: tory privatisations continuing under Labour in the past; current tories still carping on about The Mess They Inherited, six f***ing years down the line; your own observations that the tories have f***ed the country up with their policies and the very real possibility that Labour, on getting in, will discover that perhaps they can't be as gung-ho or radical as they hoped, just like Blair who privatised me). 

But the checks and balances are there though, it catches them up in the end whatever they do.  It's no good looking at this last few years through a normal lens sadly as brexit has poisoned the well, had brexit not happened the Tories would be gone in 2020 - 100%, absolutely no doubt in my mind.  That would have been 10 years of Tory damage.  The terms of our future trading relationship could impact the country for 10, 20, 30 years yet we're not allowed a say?  Nah.

The other thing I'm saying is that the noise people are making about this whole thing being unfair, badly organised, public was misinformed, not clearly defined enough, etc etc etc, is all literally exactly the same things that conservative voters would say if Labour got in, because they're the things that people always say when they lose votes :dontknow:  It's painted as a decision which will affect the country and the economy for decades to come, and maybe it is - but the difference is that a significant proportion of the people who are making this noise would be quite prepared to give Labour's potential economy-crashing-for-decades alternative scenario a shot because they personally want to see it happen. 

So voters are allowed to vote for what they want, is that the crux of this argument?  Once again there's been proven illegal activity, serious questions about the source of funding for VL, people from within the campaign saying the whole thing was dodgy as f*** and that CA/AIQ were involved in rigging the vote and so on.  We're not even calling for an enquiry let alone having one.  I don't think the fact it was shittily organised etc. is enough reason to complain as you quite rightly say, but I do think that with confirmed illegal activity having taken place and so many other questions surrounding it we should at least be looking into what happened.  This was supposed to be the biggest democratic exercise in our history and it's more than likely been subverted by outside forces.  Again if that happens in a GE it will be corrected, this will not.

To be clear, though, the whole thing should 100% have been spelled out more clearly right at the start of the process in terms of public decision-making going forward.  I couldn't agree more with that :thup:
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline cp40

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #21371 on: Monday 17 September 2018, 07:51:55 am »
Brexit can't be all bad, surely there must be some benefits.


This man appears to think there are some benefits.




Offline Darth Crooks

  • General Member
  • Han Colo's dark side
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #21372 on: Monday 17 September 2018, 10:05:40 am »
Old skool corbs would have made a great dr who


Offline OpenC

  • General Member
  • You might still see them in the desert
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #21373 on: Monday 17 September 2018, 10:51:21 am »

:lol:

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #21374 on: Monday 17 September 2018, 11:05:56 am »
Brexit can't be all bad, surely there must be some benefits.


This man appears to think there are some benefits.





granted i just skimmed that clip there but wasn't he basically saying the exact same thing he is now only with reference to going into the euro (cutting public services and spending = bad)?  he does mention democracy and so forth but are we classing that as a brexit benefit now? :lol:
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire