Topic: why is it so hard to do a Brexit

[Parky]

With a referendum coming up next year or the year after what is the feeling about this?

Can the UK survive and prosper out of the EU?

Getting democracy back to national Govt is the key issue of our time. 

[Troll]

IN campaign revealed.

[Disco]

Definitely needed another thread that will become the same as the other political threads, that's for sure.

[Parky]

Think people would stay in if we never had to join the single currency and could opt out of the immigration protocol (free movement).

The last few weeks the EU have been secretly negotiation new and dangerous trade deals that we would have to stick to:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/05/us-eu-trade-deal-the-guardian-briefing

New powers to corporations.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/19/ttip-brussels-cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-us-nhs




"According to legal advice given to the Unite union it would not be possible for Malmström to devise a form of words excluding public services from trade disputes. Kyriaki-Korina Raptopoulou, an expert in EU law, warned that without an explicit exclusion, NHS contracts could be disputed in ISDS’s secret courts. She added a warning that TTIP would “promote the risk of suppressing future healthcare legislation.”

[Northerngimp]

I dunno, I was all for pulling  out of the EU a  few years ago but then switched it up and thought we are much better off in the EU...Ive since started to wobble again and Im now not sure what is best for us.

 

[Ian W]

TTIP is more to do with the power of corporate interests than the EU specifically, IMO. Particularly under a Tory government, the UK would probably be a willing participant anyway. It's a bit disingenuous to call it a problem with Europe. Of course if the EU and the USA didn't exist, they couldn't make this agreement.

I'm reluctant to get into another politics thread, but I'm pro-EU and would vote to stay in. I would be gutted to be part of a country that considers itself so separate from its neighbours. There are legitimate concerns about democracy to a certain extent, but I think they are way overblown.

I'm also in favour of freedom of movement, an immense benefit that people in the UK tend not to take advantage of because of language issues etc. Being able to move and work freely all over Europe is amazing.

Everything is global now, people are tied more and more closely together in all sorts of ways. I just think it would be a massive backward step to pull out of a union like this.

I don't have many economic arguments and all that TBH, my feeling is more a point of principle about internationalism and close partnerships.

[Parky]

It's not working tho is it?

[Ian W]

It's not working tho is it?

What isn't - the concept of the EU?

[colinmk]

Stay in, fix it. Currency should go.

[Parky]

It's not working tho is it?

What isn't - the concept of the EU?

Mass unemployment.
Sovereign debt across the board.
48-60% of law made in the EU unseen by our Parliament.
A flailing currency.
No coherent foreign policy.
German dominance.
Silly flag.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

Think people would stay in if we never had to join the single currency and could opt out of the immigration protocol (free movement).

The last few weeks the EU have been secretly negotiation new and dangerous trade deals that we would have to stick to:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/05/us-eu-trade-deal-the-guardian-briefing

New powers to corporations.

And we wouldn't get new powers to corporations the way we're going in this country if we left? It's not that much about EU or no, at the minute. In fact it's in Europe you're most likely to get an anti corporation sentiment. Definitely not f***ing over here. Leaving the EU isn't going to help our problem of being governed by corporate interests. It'd probably f***ing worsen it. What's the lesser of the two evils? At least in Europe the shady corporate deals aren't in favour of the c***s in this country who want to hold dominion over the masses. At least they have to react rather than get to create. At least we'd get some level of protection from fat cat deregulation being brought in. It's this government that believe in building a society on f***ing retail, man. And you're worried about the EU giving powers to corporations?

[Ian W]

It's not perfect by any means, in particular the single currency is a really difficult concept. Nations not being able to adjust their own economies enough is tricky. But then we aren't in that.

Do we want the EU to have a single foreign policy? Not sure that would be possible without the kind of democratic issues people worry about. We do alright to present a united front most of the time.

I don't know enough about the economic arguments to say whether unemployment is a consequence of the EU - beyond the fact that some people took on too much debt in order to join the Euro. But every global economy was absolutely battered by debt and free and easy trading in credit.

[Parky]

Think people would stay in if we never had to join the single currency and could opt out of the immigration protocol (free movement).

The last few weeks the EU have been secretly negotiation new and dangerous trade deals that we would have to stick to:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/05/us-eu-trade-deal-the-guardian-briefing

New powers to corporations.

And we wouldn't get new powers to corporations the way we're going in this country if we left? It's not that much about EU or no, at the minute. In fact it's in Europe you're most likely to get an anti corporation sentiment. Definitely not f***ing over here. Leaving the EU isn't going to help our problem of being governed by corporate interests. It'd probably f***ing worsen it. What's the lesser of the two evils? At least in Europe the shady corporate deals aren't in favour of the c***s in this country who want to hold dominion over the masses. At least they have to react rather than get to create. At least we'd get some level of protection from fat cat deregulation being brought in. It's this government that believe in building a society on f***ing retail, man. And you're worried about the EU giving powers to corporations?

EU policy is driven by consultation with corporations.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

And ours isn't?

[Parky]

It's not perfect by any means, in particular the single currency is a really difficult concept. Nations not being able to adjust their own economies enough is tricky. But then we aren't in that.

Do we want the EU to have a single foreign policy? Not sure that would be possible without the kind of democratic issues people worry about. We do alright to present a united front most of the time.

I don't know enough about the economic arguments to say whether unemployment is a consequence of the EU - beyond the fact that some people took on too much debt in order to join the Euro. But every global economy was absolutely battered by debt and free and easy trading in credit.

Weaker economies are strangled by the inability to devalue plus all the Kafkaesque over-regulation. Try starting a small business in Germany.

[Parky]

How the deals are done. Lobbying in the EU. CEO's writing European policy.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

I do know that, but I think you're missing the point. This isn;t an EU only problem. This is a global problem. We can't fight it on our own. I know you're very anti US and corporate US in particular, and it's mainly US corporate interests that are active in lobbying the EU. But we're sucking up to f***ing China, man.

[Toondave]

I am looking forward to this thread.

[Toondave]

They were all wrong then and they're wrong now.

[Parky]

I do know that, but I think you're missing the point. This isn;t an EU only problem. This is a global problem. We can't fight it on our own.

I understand what you're saying we're on the same side.

But the EU is one stage removed it is a parallel bureaucracy far away from us and when they pass laws (written by apparatchiks) we have no way of stopping it...We can't vote anyone out or in. This of course is by design.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

You're directing your sentiment towards the wrong people. It's not them that buy the stuff that enable them to buy influence.

[Parky]

I am looking forward to this thread.

Watch that film TD. It really is an eye opener.

[Toondave]

I am looking forward to this thread.

Watch that film TD. It really is an eye opener.

  opened it, will watch a bit later on.

[Parky]

The Hobbits must awaken.

[Ian W]

I don't agree with the conflation of big business corporate interests, the EU and the Eurozone. I don't know if you guys really believe they are the same thing or if you're using misdirection on purpose.