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What would be the best option?

Theresa May's deal
Walk away with no deal
Forget it and stay in

Author Topic: why is it so hard to do a Brexit  (Read 682008 times)

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Offline Toondave

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #75 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 01:35:33 PM »
Purely looking at it from my own field, leaving the EU would be a similar disaster for British science as leaving the UK would have been for Scottish science.  We spend the lowest amount of our GDP on science of any G8 nation, yet we're the second most productive country for science in the world.  Why?  EU funding.  We get 20% of the funding from the European Research Council, when our population only makes up 12%. 

Senior scientists in the UK are pressured to bring in as much money as possible through grants, etc to fund their research.  The freeze the government has put on science funding has made this much harder in recent years, to lose the EU funding as well will see an exodus of British scientists to labs abroad.

£350m a week goes to Brussels, that could quite easily be spent on science and research. Scaremongering to suggest otherwise.

So you think the government would do that, when the UK science budget has gone down every year under them?

Yes I think they would, maybe it has gone down because they know the EU will pick up the slack? but regardless, that is a separate argument entirely.

Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #76 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 01:37:28 PM »
Does anyone actual have a good reason to stay in the EU? :lol:

Gave you a few at the start, I just don't have enough doomsday YouTube clips to back it up.

FWIW I think people will vote to leave, the climate around this is toxic. Nigel Farage and his band of absolute nutters will turn out to be a disaster for the UK, we wouldn't even be having this debate if they hadn't been lavished with media time and allowed to force this issue to the top of the agenda. 

Good point on funding as well, my Master's degree was funded by the EU Social Fund... I couldn't have done it without that.

:lol: MAX KEISER!
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make

Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #77 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 01:38:33 PM »
Purely looking at it from my own field, leaving the EU would be a similar disaster for British science as leaving the UK would have been for Scottish science.  We spend the lowest amount of our GDP on science of any G8 nation, yet we're the second most productive country for science in the world.  Why?  EU funding.  We get 20% of the funding from the European Research Council, when our population only makes up 12%. 

Senior scientists in the UK are pressured to bring in as much money as possible through grants, etc to fund their research.  The freeze the government has put on science funding has made this much harder in recent years, to lose the EU funding as well will see an exodus of British scientists to labs abroad.

£350m a week goes to Brussels, that could quite easily be spent on science and research. Scaremongering to suggest otherwise.

So you think the government would do that, when the UK science budget has gone down every year under them?

Yes I think they would, maybe it has gone down because they know the EU will pick up the slack? but regardless, that is a separate argument entirely.

You know they absolutely f***ing wouldn't. We have many protections from our own government provided by the EU.
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make

Offline Disco

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #78 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 01:39:20 PM »
Purely looking at it from my own field, leaving the EU would be a similar disaster for British science as leaving the UK would have been for Scottish science.  We spend the lowest amount of our GDP on science of any G8 nation, yet we're the second most productive country for science in the world.  Why?  EU funding.  We get 20% of the funding from the European Research Council, when our population only makes up 12%. 

Senior scientists in the UK are pressured to bring in as much money as possible through grants, etc to fund their research.  The freeze the government has put on science funding has made this much harder in recent years, to lose the EU funding as well will see an exodus of British scientists to labs abroad.

£350m a week goes to Brussels, that could quite easily be spent on science and research. Scaremongering to suggest otherwise.

So you think the government would do that, when the UK science budget has gone down every year under them?

Yes I think they would, maybe it has gone down because they know the EU will pick up the slack? but regardless, that is a separate argument entirely.

You know they absolutely f***ing wouldn't. We have many protections from our own government provided by the EU.

"Scaremongering"

Offline Toondave

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #79 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 01:40:52 PM »
Purely looking at it from my own field, leaving the EU would be a similar disaster for British science as leaving the UK would have been for Scottish science.  We spend the lowest amount of our GDP on science of any G8 nation, yet we're the second most productive country for science in the world.  Why?  EU funding.  We get 20% of the funding from the European Research Council, when our population only makes up 12%. 

Senior scientists in the UK are pressured to bring in as much money as possible through grants, etc to fund their research.  The freeze the government has put on science funding has made this much harder in recent years, to lose the EU funding as well will see an exodus of British scientists to labs abroad.

£350m a week goes to Brussels, that could quite easily be spent on science and research. Scaremongering to suggest otherwise.

So you think the government would do that, when the UK science budget has gone down every year under them?

Yes I think they would, maybe it has gone down because they know the EU will pick up the slack? but regardless, that is a separate argument entirely.

You know they absolutely f***ing wouldn't. We have many protections from our own government provided by the EU.

Again, you don't see how this is a different issue? Whether or not the government that we as a nation vote in would increase science funding is different to whether or not the EU is the only possible source of science funding.

The funding for my research is also supported by the EU but it would be pretty selfish of me to use this as my main reason to stay in the EU.

Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing stopping there being a voluntary, pan-European science fund set up and supported by any nation wishing to further science across the board. You do not need a political union to achieve this.

Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #80 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 01:42:09 PM »
:anguish:
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make

Offline Ian W

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #81 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 01:42:16 PM »
Toondave, how can you ask for benefits of the EU and then say they don't count because the UK government 'might' decide to do them on their own? These are some of the benefits of collaboration on a European scale.

Obviously any of these schemes could theoretically pop up on their own, but the EU has implemented them in reality.

Offline Toondave

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #82 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 01:43:33 PM »
Toondave, how can you ask for benefits of the EU and then say they don't count because the UK government 'might' decide to do them on their own? These are some of the benefits of collaboration on a European scale.

I would like to hear the benefits of ever closer political union and the degradation of our sovereignty. Scientific research is not one of them. Collaboration on a European scale is favourable but I'm yet to hear why all the additional crap is required.

Offline Ian W

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #83 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 02:03:29 PM »
Well it's not a thing you can get exactly right, I imagine. I would never claim that. When you work together and form unions there will be compromises, some people will have to go along with things they don't 100% agree with. In politics it'll be even worse.

Troll has explained how funding comes in from Europe, that's a fact. It's happening now... whether or not the UK could have theoretically provided this funding on its own doesn't seem a fair criticism. The point is the EU organisation has provided this benefit, in reality.

I don't really want 'ever closer' union as such, I'm not sure what that means in practice. I doubt any member state wants a single country of Europe.

Offline Toondave

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #84 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 02:07:11 PM »
Well it's not a thing you can get exactly right, I imagine. I would never claim that. When you work together and form unions there will be compromises, some people will have to go along with things they don't 100% agree with. In politics it'll be even worse.

Troll has explained how funding comes in from Europe, that's a fact. It's happening now... whether or not the UK could have theoretically provided this funding on its own doesn't seem a fair criticism. The point is the EU organisation has provided this benefit, in reality.

I don't really want 'ever closer' union as such, I'm not sure what that means in practice. I doubt any member state wants a single country of Europe.

Fair enough. But it does almost suggest that without the EU any sort of cooperation is impossible, which is patently absurd.

I also doubt that any member states wants a single country of Europe, but that is not what matters, what matters is the agenda of the Eurocrats who do want a single state.

Jose Manuel Barroso - "A fully fledged federal Europe may seem like political science fiction today but will soon become reality for all European Union countries whether inside or outside the Euro"

Guy Verhofstadt - "The EU highway can have a left lane and a right lane, but they both must lead in one direction [federal Europe]"

Offline mrmojorisin75

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #85 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 02:11:45 PM »
Well it's not a thing you can get exactly right, I imagine. I would never claim that. When you work together and form unions there will be compromises, some people will have to go along with things they don't 100% agree with. In politics it'll be even worse.

Troll has explained how funding comes in from Europe, that's a fact. It's happening now... whether or not the UK could have theoretically provided this funding on its own doesn't seem a fair criticism. The point is the EU organisation has provided this benefit, in reality.

I don't really want 'ever closer' union as such, I'm not sure what that means in practice. I doubt any member state wants a single country of Europe.

Fair enough. But it does almost suggest that without the EU any sort of cooperation is impossible, which is patently absurd.

I also doubt that any member states wants a single country of Europe, but that is not what matters, what matters is the agenda of the Eurocrats who do want a single state.

Jose Manuel Barroso - "A fully fledged federal Europe may seem like political science fiction today but will soon become reality for all European Union countries whether inside or outside the Euro"

Guy Verhofstadt - "The EU highway can have a left lane and a right lane, but they both must lead in one direction [federal Europe]"
What was that about scaremongering again? [emoji38]

Not a Toondave specific question but why aren't we pushing other nation states for widespread reforms? If we want to trade with emerging markets and so on I'm pretty sure they will too.
So raise your fists and march around
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I'll jail and bury those committed
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Offline Ian W

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #86 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 02:14:59 PM »
I don't agree with those quotes, but surely there are equally quotes about not wanting one country? And in any case, we all have MEPs to prevent that. The fact that some Europeans may want a fully united Europe doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Offline Toondave

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #87 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 02:15:32 PM »
Well it's not a thing you can get exactly right, I imagine. I would never claim that. When you work together and form unions there will be compromises, some people will have to go along with things they don't 100% agree with. In politics it'll be even worse.

Troll has explained how funding comes in from Europe, that's a fact. It's happening now... whether or not the UK could have theoretically provided this funding on its own doesn't seem a fair criticism. The point is the EU organisation has provided this benefit, in reality.

I don't really want 'ever closer' union as such, I'm not sure what that means in practice. I doubt any member state wants a single country of Europe.

Fair enough. But it does almost suggest that without the EU any sort of cooperation is impossible, which is patently absurd.

I also doubt that any member states wants a single country of Europe, but that is not what matters, what matters is the agenda of the Eurocrats who do want a single state.

Jose Manuel Barroso - "A fully fledged federal Europe may seem like political science fiction today but will soon become reality for all European Union countries whether inside or outside the Euro"

Guy Verhofstadt - "The EU highway can have a left lane and a right lane, but they both must lead in one direction [federal Europe]"
What was that about scaremongering again? [emoji38]

Not a Toondave specific question but why aren't we pushing other nation states for widespread reforms? If we want to trade with emerging markets and so on I'm pretty sure they will too.

How is it scaremongering these are cold hard quotes. It is scary that much is true.

We are pushing but they don't care as much. Eg, 57% of our 2012 exports headed to non-EU states, Belgian exports in the same year were 22%.

Offline Toondave

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #88 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 02:16:41 PM »
I don't agree with those quotes, but surely there are equally quotes about not wanting one country? And in any case, we all have MEPs to prevent that. The fact that some Europeans may want a fully united Europe doesn't mean it's going to happen.

These are the people running the show, they don't care about public opinion.

Jean-Claude Juncker;

On Britain wanting a referendum over Lisbon Treaty

"Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty, but would I be wise to draw the attention of the public to this fact?"

On France wanting a referendum

"If it's a Yes we will say "on we go", if it's a No we will say "we continue""

Offline TaylorJ_01

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #89 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 03:05:26 PM »
To be fair, the public are stupid and selfish. See Scottish referendum or voting the Tories back in.
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Offline Incognito

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #90 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 03:06:41 PM »
We haven't entered the single currency despite the EU wanting us to. Why would we give away sovereign rights? This argument is one that the Mailites and Fuhrage uses, yet we really have never seen this happen have we? Except for bent bananas or s**** like that.
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Offline Toondave

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #91 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 03:30:16 PM »
We haven't entered the single currency despite the EU wanting us to. Why would we give away sovereign rights? This argument is one that the Mailites and Fuhrage uses, yet we really have never seen this happen have we? Except for bent bananas or s**** like that.

Lisbon?

Offline Ian W

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #92 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 03:31:48 PM »
To be fair, the public are stupid and selfish. See Scottish referendum or voting the Tories back in.

A politician wanting to skew his message is an everyday thing, it doesn't mean he's going to get his way. He won't be EU president forever either.

Offline Toondave

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #93 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 03:33:31 PM »
To be fair, the public are stupid and selfish. See Scottish referendum or voting the Tories back in.

A politician wanting to skew his message is an everyday thing, it doesn't mean he's going to get his way. He won't be EU president forever either.

They're all cut from the same cloth Ian. Those who rise to the top (the scum) are all federalists who all share the same end-goal and couldn't care less what we want as they all think they know better.

Offline Toondave

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #94 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 03:36:48 PM »
Quote
Key findings:

By 2:1 SMEs believe that the EU is hindering their business
Over 2.1 million smaller business leaders (41%) believe that the EU is hindering their business. That is twice as many as the 20% who believe it helps them.


http://businessforbritain.org/2015/09/25/two-million-sme-business-leaders-say-eu-hinders-their-business/

Offline Disco

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #95 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 04:00:01 PM »
To be fair, the public are stupid and selfish. See Scottish referendum or voting the Tories back in.

A politician wanting to skew his message is an everyday thing, it doesn't mean he's going to get his way. He won't be EU president forever either.

They're all cut from the same cloth Ian. Those who rise to the top (the scum) are all federalists who all share the same end-goal and couldn't care less what we want as they all think they know better.

Not sure if irony. You referring to all politicians or non-UK based pro-EU member politicians?

Offline Parky

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #96 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 04:00:23 PM »
All being negotiated away in secret. Even MEP's are only allowed to look at the documents in a high security room and not take any digital devices in there.  :laugh:

This is the EU at its best. Not telling anything, not allowing any debate, concluding it all in secret. Federal elite scum.


The Art of Not Listening
 
In the face of growing pubic opposition, the European Commission last summer embarked on what can only be described as a half-hearted, half-baked attempt at damage control. It promised to offer a little more transparency around the talks, now in their ninth round, as well as run a public consultation on the highly controversial issue of Investor State Dispute Settlements (ISDS). As I reported last June in Global Corporatocracy is Just a Pen Stroke Away from Completion, ISDS would allow businesses to bypass national court systems and sue governments in private arbitration panels.

Nearly 150,000 people responded to the survey – the highest number of responses ever for an EU consultation – with the overwhelming majority (more than 97%) rejecting the inclusion of ISDS in TTIP.

It was, unfortunately, the wrong answer – as the word “no” so often tends to be in Brussels these days. With the European Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmström reminding participants that the exercise had been a consultation, not a “referendum” (the most dangerous word you can utter in eurocratic circles), the negotiations have plodded on regardless. The Commission has announced that it will not drop the ISDS provisions from the negotiations but will instead continue with its pre-consultation agenda of “reforming” the system – that is, tinkering around the edges while leaving the core perfectly intact.

As the Commission digs in its heels, playing deaf to the concerns of non-corporate interests, public opposition and resistance continue to grow. TTIP opponents now include MEPs, elected representatives and governments (in particular in Germany, France and Austria), academics, public interest groups, trade unions and even some of the Commission’s own advisors.

As for European businesses, they stand deeply divided on the issue. TTIP has an obvious appeal for the world’s biggest corporations, especially those with seats around the negotiating table. SMEs, however, are far less represented in the talks and are this far less convinced by the agreement’s supposed benefits, despite the Commission’s every effort to paint TTIP as SME-friendly.

Growing Resistance

In countries with the highest concentration of small and family-owned businesses, such as Italy and France, people are “absolutely petrified,” says John Hilary, the director of War on Want and one of the most outspoken critics of TTIP. Meanwhile the German Mittelstand (the country’s mostly family-run SME sector), which represents 99% of firms in the country, is adamantly opposed to the plans. In a recent survey 94% of business owners felt they had not received sufficient information, while another 50% felt their interests were being endangered.

Offline Parky

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #97 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 04:07:27 PM »
In 2014 the EU passed 1747 pieces of legislation. That's some going, but hey there must be some kind of timetable.....

Offline Ian W

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #98 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 04:16:15 PM »
I fully agree TTIP is appalling, I just don't think it's related that closely to the in/out of the EU question.

Offline Incognito

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Re: Official in or out the EU thread.
« Reply #99 on: Wednesday 14 October 2015, 05:02:42 PM »
We haven't entered the single currency despite the EU wanting us to. Why would we give away sovereign rights? This argument is one that the Mailites and Fuhrage uses, yet we really have never seen this happen have we? Except for bent bananas or s**** like that.

Lisbon?
What about Lisbon? How has the treaty of Lisbon treated us in an adverse manner regarding sovereign rights? Genuine question.
RIP gejon/cajun/ Jon Lockwood.

Proud to have made your acquaintance Sir.