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Author Topic: why is it so hard to do a Brexit  (Read 673525 times)

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Offline Kimbo

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24925 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 01:12:44 PM »
That general election was so bizarre, even more so in retrospect. It was the Brexit general election(even though labour tried their best not to talk about it), and over 82% voted for parties that wanted to proceed with leaving the EU. It's the best argument against a 2nd referendum, Brexit has won two public votes already.

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24926 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 01:23:46 PM »

I've little time for him, but that's pretty f***ing outrageous. :lol:

I mean, it is, isn't it?
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24927 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 01:30:09 PM »
That general election was so bizarre, even more so in retrospect. It was the Brexit general election(even though labour tried their best not to talk about it), and over 82% voted for parties that wanted to proceed with leaving the EU. It's the best argument against a 2nd referendum, Brexit has won two public votes already.

If it happens, I honestly think we're going to regret it.  They, within Labour, who support a second referendum are definitely not reading the situation very well.  It's in the polling.  Many do want a second referendum, many do want to remain, but they also played their part in the policy that was decided and have stuck by Corbyn and Starmer throughout.  They'd much prefer a GE first, and a close union with the EU rather than simply being in the EU at the expense of getting into government.  That is reflected in national polling, which has only ever seen Labour drop about 6-7 points, despite this apparent betrayal he is leading against his own members. 

I fear they, and they're my side really so I should say we, are so caught up in their own little echo chamber, they're not seeing the growing Lexit base, a base that I've noticed are actually keen on no deal "so Corbyn/Labour can negotiate with the EU".  I've seen this from fairly respectable Labour people, too.  Admittedly only activist levels, but definitely growing.  Leave will win again, I am almost absolutely sure of it. 
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline Darth Crooks

  • General Member
  • The greatest show on Darth
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24928 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 01:35:06 PM »
HB is a poisonous cur - same mould as oakeshott and the like. Offer f*** all as journalists other than populist bile and zeitgeist bandwagoning.

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24929 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 01:37:37 PM »
He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline neesy111

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24930 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 01:42:41 PM »
He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

It's a window dressing exercise by May to make it look like she's doing something.  The other parties should call her out for wasting their time.

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24931 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 02:05:56 PM »
He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

It's a window dressing exercise by May to make it look like she's doing something.  The other parties should call her out for wasting their time.

Yep. In retrospect Corbyn should have got everyone he could to do the same thing he has imo. She's p*ssed all over the people who have met her anyways.
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline leffe186

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24932 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:03:02 PM »

I've little time for him, but that's pretty f***ing outrageous. :lol:

I mean, it is, isn't it?

For some reason I thought she was an MP, and got really annoyed :lol:.

Turns out her father was a GP, which gives an interesting twist. Overt racism aside, the key thing that struck me was the idea that "there are thousands of young people in this country perfectly willing and able to become doctors who can't get trained." So why not? "Foreign" doctors are not preventing people getting positions - there are thousands of vacancies in the NHS. Do foreign doctors depress pay levels? Well the government controls those and had actually implemented a pay cap itself, so that's not their fault. The BMJ this week said that we should "let more overseas doctors work in the NHS to fill shortages."

What's the betting that one of the key reasons that "thousands of young people" can't get trained is money?
Obviously, I'm speaking of a hypothetical world in which there is a greater club than Tottenham.

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24933 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:32:33 PM »
Aye, of course it is.  Mind working at Student Loans, and medical students, nurses, they were the most heartbreaking to deal with.  Get f*** all help from the government, and pushed towards NHS bursaries which were a f***ing pittance.  Like, any normal, random student can get a tonne more than they do.  It's mental, honestly f***ing insane. 
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24934 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:32:36 PM »
I, for one, was a massive fan of FOMA. The number of Brazilians, Colombians, Argentinians, Bolivians, Venezuelans, Chileans, Peruvians etc. that I know wouldn't have been possible without it.

But on a serious note. The argument that immigration is an economic benefit to the country is, clearly true. But, anybody working is a benefit to the economy. People earning and spending money is the economy. But surely if the people "coming in" are working for less, then they are not as beneficial as somebody here doing the job and earning more. If those "coming in" drive down wages overall, then everybody earns, and therefore spends less.

I'm not arguing against immigration, culturally we benefit more than all the money in the world could ever provide (even if they cared to try), I just think that, as usual,, the economic argument is disingenuous.

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24935 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:35:37 PM »

I've little time for him, but that's pretty f***ing outrageous. :lol:

I mean, it is, isn't it?

For some reason I thought she was an MP, and got really annoyed :lol:.

Turns out her father was a GP, which gives an interesting twist. Overt racism aside, the key thing that struck me was the idea that "there are thousands of young people in this country perfectly willing and able to become doctors who can't get trained." So why not? "Foreign" doctors are not preventing people getting positions - there are thousands of vacancies in the NHS. Do foreign doctors depress pay levels? Well the government controls those and had actually implemented a pay cap itself, so that's not their fault. The BMJ this week said that we should "let more overseas doctors work in the NHS to fill shortages."

What's the betting that one of the key reasons that "thousands of young people" can't get trained is money?

Classic argument that's got us here isn't it?

NHS is full of forrin nurses, EU is bad as FoM is preventing good, white patriots getting those jobs.

Wait, you Tory c***s have decimated the NHS and funding so people here can't afford to train, and if they can then the pay and conditions are absolute s**** so why would they?

Everything comes back to Tory policies in the end. Everything.
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24936 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:36:35 PM »
He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

The only thing is, it gifted his rivals an easy goal.  It was remarkable the similarity between all the comments made.  From ardent Blairites, to hard-right Tories, "he'll meet with Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA but not our PM?"

I'm not suggesting it was some coordinated attack for what it's worth.  It doesn't have to be, without wanting to get into a different conspiracy (:lol:) the deck is always going to be stacked against him from a media perspective.  With the benefit of hindsight, he should have gone to meet her just to say f*** you. 
« Last Edit: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:47:47 PM by BlufPurdi »
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24937 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:39:33 PM »
He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

The only thing is, it gifted his rivals an easy goal.  Its was remarkable the similarity between all the comments made.  From ardent Blairites, to hard-right Tories, "he'll meet with Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA but not our PM?"

I'm not suggesting it was some coordinated attack for what it's worth.  It doesn't have to be, without wanting to get into a different conspiracy (:lol:) the deck is always going to be stacked against him in a media perspective.  With the benefit of hindsight, he should have gone to meet her just to say f*** you.

Yeah, true. Frustrating that it turned the attention immediately off May tbh.
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24938 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:46:11 PM »
He didn't go as long as no deal was on the table.  Everyone else went with the same demand and got nothing, so whether he should have went or not, he was ultimately right.  If she won't budge on red lines, why the hell should anyone else.

This is my feeling. The whole mess is hers, in large part due to her being unwilling to cooperate and of course her own red lines. I think it's important at this stage that she is the one who is forced to bend, especially after that f***ing vote. f*** her.

The only thing is, it gifted his rivals an easy goal.  Its was remarkable the similarity between all the comments made.  From ardent Blairites, to hard-right Tories, "he'll meet with Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA but not our PM?"

I'm not suggesting it was some coordinated attack for what it's worth.  It doesn't have to be, without wanting to get into a different conspiracy (:lol:) the deck is always going to be stacked against him in a media perspective.  With the benefit of hindsight, he should have gone to meet her just to say f*** you.

Aye. The t***s were asked to debate a vote of no confidence in the government, and they spent their time debating a vote of confidence in the leader of the opposition. The whole house can burn down for me. As long as Rebecca gets out.

Offline sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24939 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:52:59 PM »
It's called "project fear" where in order to secure victory you avoid discussion about the benefits of your victory and focus on the consequences of your defeat.

Offline leffe186

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24940 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 03:53:49 PM »
I, for one, was a massive fan of FOMA. The number of Brazilians, Colombians, Argentinians, Bolivians, Venezuelans, Chileans, Peruvians etc. that I know wouldn't have been possible without it.

But on a serious note. The argument that immigration is an economic benefit to the country is, clearly true. But, anybody working is a benefit to the economy. People earning and spending money is the economy. But surely if the people "coming in" are working for less, then they are not as beneficial as somebody here doing the job and earning more. If those "coming in" drive down wages overall, then everybody earns, and therefore spends less.

I'm not arguing against immigration, culturally we benefit more than all the money in the world could ever provide (even if they cared to try), I just think that, as usual,, the economic argument is disingenuous.

It's not necessarily disingenuous, just complex:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/immigration-uk-economy-what-are-the-benefits-stats-theresa-may-amber-rudd-tory-conference-speeches-a7346121.html

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2014/nov/positive-economic-impact-uk-immigration-european-union-new-evidence

Wage reduction is part of the equation, certainly.
Obviously, I'm speaking of a hypothetical world in which there is a greater club than Tottenham.

Offline ikri

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24941 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 04:05:11 PM »

I've little time for him, but that's pretty f***ing outrageous. :lol:

I mean, it is, isn't it?

Julia Heartless-b****** saying something outrageous again?  I'm shocked.

Offline Disco

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24942 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 04:41:57 PM »
Aye, of course it is.  Mind working at Student Loans, and medical students, nurses, they were the most heartbreaking to deal with.  Get f*** all help from the government, and pushed towards NHS bursaries which were a f***ing pittance.  Like, any normal, random student can get a tonne more than they do.  It's mental, honestly f***ing insane. 

They’ve been scrapped for nurses. Get a nice wad of SL debt now instead.

Offline geordiesteve710

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24943 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 04:55:15 PM »
I think I'm probably missing something but is there any reason why he couldn't have gone in with the other party leaders and if (when) she refused to compromise come out and issue a statement, ideally a joint one with the other leaders explaining she's not open to compromise on her deal, isn't prepared to take no deal off the table so there's not much point in carrying on discussions on this basis.
Log on to the N-O forum.
Check the transfer thread in the vague hope we might be going to spend some money, get p*ssed off.
Move to the Mike Ashley thread because I'm p*ssed off, get more p*ssed off.
Come to this thread to cheer myself up a bit.
Leave.
Repeat.

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24944 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 05:06:28 PM »
I think I'm probably missing something but is there any reason why he couldn't have gone in with the other party leaders and if (when) she refused to compromise come out and issue a statement, ideally a joint one with the other leaders explaining she's not open to compromise on her deal, isn't prepared to take no deal off the table so there's not much point in carrying on discussions on this basis.

There's no reason he couldn't have done that.  It wasn't a wrong move from him as such, the results all ended the same for every idiot that went to see her, but he gave himself another bad PR run. 
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline Shearergol

  • General Member
  • The Dirty Pitchers
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24945 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 06:32:23 PM »
New thread time?

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24946 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 06:46:02 PM »
Should we just keep it all in the UK thread?  Or make another?  I don't feel decisive enough to make the call. :lol:

Had hoped it would be done. :dave:
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline neesy111

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24947 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 06:47:13 PM »
Should we just keep it all in the UK thread?  Or make another?  I don't feel decisive enough to make the call. :lol:

Had hoped it would be done. :dave:

We'll still be commentating on it in 10 years time.

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24948 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 06:49:46 PM »
Well that's kind of the point.  It's so intrinsically part of British politics now that it'll be forever talked about, or at least for another few years.  Can't say I feel it's a seperate debate anymore, but your lot's call unless one of the other admin make a new thread.  In which case it's their call. :aww:
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline Adam^

  • General Member
Re: why is it so hard to do a Brexit
« Reply #24949 on: Sunday 20 January 2019, 07:16:22 PM »
This utter s*** show deserves its own thread tbh.