Topic: why is it so hard to do a Brexit

[colinmk]

I fully agree TTIP is appalling, I just don't think it's related that closely to the in/out of the EU question.

The Brits are the main pushers of the Titp deal. Cameron was trying to get it through the back door of the sty.

[Toondave]

We haven't entered the single currency despite the EU wanting us to. Why would we give away sovereign rights? This argument is one that the Mailites and Fuhrage uses, yet we really have never seen this happen have we? Except for bent bananas or s**** like that.

Lisbon?

What about Lisbon? How has the treaty of Lisbon treated us in an adverse manner regarding sovereign rights? Genuine question.

It took them a matter of months to go against the opt-out that Labour were so proud about. They couldn't care less about sovereignty man; in fact they want to actively destroy it.

The end goal of the current European project is federalism and we need to get off this ride now. Leaving the EU is not turning our backs on the rest of Europe but is freeing ourselves, and in turn the rest of the people of Europe, from the tyranny of the Eurocrats.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

[TheGuv]

I want us out. I think the public will vote to stay in.

I think it'll be similar to the Scot Referendum where people end up changing their minds at the last minute. It'd be interesting to see the current pools. I know Leave was ahead by 2% a few months ago?

[Toondave]

I want us out. I think the public will vote to stay in.

I think it'll be similar to the Scot Referendum where people end up changing their minds at the last minute. It'd be interesting to see the current pools. I know Leave was ahead by 2% a few months ago?

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/09/28/eu-referendum-brexit-leads-2/

from september

 

[mrmojorisin75]

Whoever shouts loudest and has the most negative / scary campaign will win. We're gone.

[Ian W]

Whoever shouts loudest and has the most negative / scary campaign will win. We're gone.

Exactly, leaving is a much simpler position to make an argument for. It's absolute classic lowest-common-denominator politics. Said for a while now that Farrage being allowed to force this issue to the top of the agenda will be an absolute disaster for the UK.

[Stifleaay]

Yes we should stay in, but yes we should look to get a better deal and to keep more of our own rule.

[Disco]

If ever there was a reason to vote no, there you have it.

[Decky]

Passionately in the 'in' camp for this. Will give the thread a read tomorrow and join in.

[mrmojorisin75]

Whoever shouts loudest and has the most negative / scary campaign will win. We're gone.

Exactly, leaving is a much simpler position to make an argument for. It's absolute classic lowest-common-denominator politics. Said for a while now that Farrage being allowed to force this issue to the top of the agenda will be an absolute disaster for the UK.

I would be utterly staggered if people voted to stay like.

This is our politics, and it's why the Tories are ruling the roost.

[Toondave]

Whoever shouts loudest and has the most negative / scary campaign will win. We're gone.

Exactly, leaving is a much simpler position to make an argument for. It's absolute classic lowest-common-denominator politics. Said for a while now that Farrage being allowed to force this issue to the top of the agenda will be an absolute disaster for the UK.

I would be utterly staggered if people voted to stay like.

This is our politics, and it's why the Tories are ruling the roost.

Tories want to stay in man. And lowest common denominator what are you guys even talking about. I'm yet to hear a coherent argument with facts in here. Talk about lowest common denominator. I'll not try make a point now other than "be generally better" since I'm a tad inebricated.

[mrmojorisin75]

Whoever shouts loudest and has the most negative / scary campaign will win. We're gone.

Exactly, leaving is a much simpler position to make an argument for. It's absolute classic lowest-common-denominator politics. Said for a while now that Farrage being allowed to force this issue to the top of the agenda will be an absolute disaster for the UK.

I would be utterly staggered if people voted to stay like.

This is our politics, and it's why the Tories are ruling the roost.

Tories want to stay in man. And lowest common denominator what are you guys even talking about. I'm yet to hear a coherent argument with facts in here. Talk about lowest common denominator. I'll not try make a point now other than "be generally better" since I'm a tad inebricated.

We're saying it's easier to pick apart something as a way to promote an agenda to leave it than it is to make the case to stay.  Everyone agrees the EU is s**** in it's current form but the arguments for leaving it completely, which are purely economic of course because that's all that counts, are just hypothetical from what I can see.  Aye "f*** Europe we'll just sign deals with China and Indonesia, the job market will adapt" and so on.  I'm paraphrasing of course.  You and everyone else have no idea how that would pan out, nor what the terms of any FTA agreement with the EEA might be but you're choosing to believe it will all work out favourably for the UK.

So in a similar way to the Scottish vote nobody can say with any certainty what the reality of a leave vote might be, therefore they're shouting opinions that only really serve to point out that everyone could be better off if we leave Europe, but that might actually not be the case, and that Europe is s**** which we all know anyway.

[Incognito]

Whoever shouts loudest and has the most negative / scary campaign will win. We're gone.

Exactly, leaving is a much simpler position to make an argument for. It's absolute classic lowest-common-denominator politics. Said for a while now that Farrage being allowed to force this issue to the top of the agenda will be an absolute disaster for the UK.

I would be utterly staggered if people voted to stay like.

This is our politics, and it's why the Tories are ruling the roost.

Tories want to stay in man. And lowest common denominator what are you guys even talking about. I'm yet to hear a coherent argument with facts in here. Talk about lowest common denominator. I'll not try make a point now other than "be generally better" since I'm a tad inebricated.

I think you meant "some" Tories want to stay in. A lot don't.

[Parky]

That's a fair point the Tories are only about 60/40 to stay in. Most of the rabid back benchers want out. 

[Ronaldo]

What's remotely about that?

[Kimbo]

Whoever shouts loudest and has the most negative / scary campaign will win. We're gone.

Whoever shouts loudest and has the most negative / scary campaign will win. We're gone.

Exactly, leaving is a much simpler position to make an argument for. It's absolute classic lowest-common-denominator politics. Said for a while now that Farrage being allowed to force this issue to the top of the agenda will be an absolute disaster for the UK.

I think this is why we'll stay in, arguing to maintain the status quo always gives you the advantage, arguing for change is difficult. I think in the end the "everyone will lose their jobs" argument will be decisive, people that are on the fence will vote against the change. I expect the result to be around 60/40 to stay in.

[Ian W]

Really? I just think the whole anti-foreigner line is more popular than ever in this country. Look at all the votes Farrage got. Obviously we need a majority of voters to vote out, so there's still some hope.

[Kimbo]

Really? I just think the whole anti-foreigner line is more popular than ever in this country. Look at all the votes Farrage got. Obviously we need a majority of voters to vote out, so there's still some hope.

The lack of border control we have is a problem for a lot of people, but is it enough of a problem to do what will be perceived as a risk? For some of them it won't be,

[NUFC_Chris]

Quite a few Labour want out, as well as Greens. Shouldn't be a party political argument really. Corbyn himself was a eurosceptic, I suspect he's towing the parliamentary party line on his stay in whatever the outcome of the renegotiations, as if I recall that's not what he was saying in the leadership debates. Kate Hoey is also a prominent outer.

[Ian W]

It's definitely not a left/right issue as such, although I can see how fear and nationalism could be used by the out campaign.

If you're pro business or a working class champion, you could believe that your aims are best furthered by working across Europe or that the benefits aren't worth the costs. Just hope people consider it properly before they decide.

[NUFC_Chris]

I honestly hope the out campaign don't focus too much on immigration/border controls, as there's plenty of other reasons to want to leave. Regaining our fishing waters and having the ability to revive a fishing industry nigh on destroyed by the EU is one for example.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/6092/the_eu_s_betrayal_of_britain_s_fishing_industry

[mrmojorisin75]

The In campaign surely must attack the uncertainty of what the change might bring about in terms of the economy and jobs?  And I don't mean fear-mongering as such but it's really hard for me to envisage a situation where we leave and there isn't at least a short-term negative impact on these things, even from just the changeover itself and the mechanics of these mythical Indonesian FTA agreements we're going to sign that'll change things for forever.

People will not want to risk it if there's a real chance it could hit the country hard, no-one thinks long-term in voting.

They won't win the campaign on positives like, they'll have to go Tory and frighten people to a degree ultimately.

[Incognito]

Quite a few Labour want out, as well as Greens. Shouldn't be a party political argument really. Corbyn himself was a eurosceptic, I suspect he's towing the parliamentary party line on his stay in whatever the outcome of the renegotiations, as if I recall that's not what he was saying in the leadership debates. Kate Hoey is also a prominent outer.

3 Labour MPs doesn't constitute quite a few in anyone's book. Labour are far more united on this than the Tories, and it stands to reason because the worker's rights that the EU has benefited us with must really stick in the craw of some Tories and probably of some of UKIP too.

[NUFC_Chris]

Unemployment was 2.6% of the population before we joined the EU, it's now at 5.4% which is still the best of all EU states I believe. I'd argue the EU has had a negative impact on jobs if I'm being honest. Big corporations will try and scare people into thinking it will have a negative impact, but primarily they're looking after their own interests on this one. They benefit from how the EU is now, and the profligacy of cheap labour from eastern EU states.