Author Topic: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions  (Read 64884 times)

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Offline madras

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1250 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 03:37:10 PM »
I wish they would run longer trains. Some platforms would need extending but its a super simple way to add capacity.

Also all the angry people on that tweet going on about how the trains should be built locally, even though Hitachi pulled out of the bidding...
The new trains will be as long as the 2 cars units that are often used right now.
The system was built with longer cars in mind and all platforms are capable of handling cars double the length they are now. I think for some underground stations this means the removal of a partitioning was, which is easily achieved.
Fairly sure two twins was the norm till the Sunderland expansion.

Also there'll be a lot more to it than just platforms etc if the trains were longer, sighting of track circuiting for example could alter the running of the system if not moved, where possible to take longer trains into account.
I’m pretty sure everything was set up from day 1 for longer trains. Like I said all the infrastructure is in place for longer. Some stations may need railings to be taken out, but I’m pretty sure everything else is set to go and they could run them tomorrow if they could.

All this is fairly mute in anyway. 99% of the time there is no justification for longer trains, even at rush hour the city centre gets a train every 3 minutes.
The only time you could say it would be justified would be for events/match day. That is only for short periods of time though.
The new trains will have linear seating, which allows for more standing space. Overall the new trains will have a larger capacity than the existing ones. Unless Newcastle see’s a dramatic increase in population, I can’t see it being needed as part of a regular schedule.
As far as I'm aware the system is set up for two twins of the current units, not sure about anything longer than that
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Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1251 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 06:12:05 PM »
I wish they would run longer trains. Some platforms would need extending but its a super simple way to add capacity.

Also all the angry people on that tweet going on about how the trains should be built locally, even though Hitachi pulled out of the bidding...
The new trains will be as long as the 2 cars units that are often used right now.
The system was built with longer cars in mind and all platforms are capable of handling cars double the length they are now. I think for some underground stations this means the removal of a partitioning was, which is easily achieved.
Fairly sure two twins was the norm till the Sunderland expansion.

Also there'll be a lot more to it than just platforms etc if the trains were longer, sighting of track circuiting for example could alter the running of the system if not moved, where possible to take longer trains into account.
I’m pretty sure everything was set up from day 1 for longer trains. Like I said all the infrastructure is in place for longer. Some stations may need railings to be taken out, but I’m pretty sure everything else is set to go and they could run them tomorrow if they could.

All this is fairly mute in anyway. 99% of the time there is no justification for longer trains, even at rush hour the city centre gets a train every 3 minutes.
The only time you could say it would be justified would be for events/match day. That is only for short periods of time though.
The new trains will have linear seating, which allows for more standing space. Overall the new trains will have a larger capacity than the existing ones. Unless Newcastle see’s a dramatic increase in population, I can’t see it being needed as part of a regular schedule.
As far as I'm aware the system is set up for two twins of the current units, not sure about anything longer than that

Correct, the only time that there have been more than edit: 2 units is for some special events (i.e. GNR) but even this was rare, only a specific number used and not been done for a good few years. 3/4 car units is also a problem as there are only a limited number of cars 'drawing power' which can be used within a 'overhead line section' e.g. Monument to Gosforth, Monument to Old Fold etc.
« Last Edit: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 06:48:53 PM by godzilla »

Offline Stifleaay

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1252 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 06:36:51 PM »
I wish they would run longer trains. Some platforms would need extending but its a super simple way to add capacity.

Also all the angry people on that tweet going on about how the trains should be built locally, even though Hitachi pulled out of the bidding...
The new trains will be as long as the 2 cars units that are often used right now.
The system was built with longer cars in mind and all platforms are capable of handling cars double the length they are now. I think for some underground stations this means the removal of a partitioning was, which is easily achieved.
Fairly sure two twins was the norm till the Sunderland expansion.

Also there'll be a lot more to it than just platforms etc if the trains were longer, sighting of track circuiting for example could alter the running of the system if not moved, where possible to take longer trains into account.
I’m pretty sure everything was set up from day 1 for longer trains. Like I said all the infrastructure is in place for longer. Some stations may need railings to be taken out, but I’m pretty sure everything else is set to go and they could run them tomorrow if they could.

All this is fairly mute in anyway. 99% of the time there is no justification for longer trains, even at rush hour the city centre gets a train every 3 minutes.
The only time you could say it would be justified would be for events/match day. That is only for short periods of time though.
The new trains will have linear seating, which allows for more standing space. Overall the new trains will have a larger capacity than the existing ones. Unless Newcastle see’s a dramatic increase in population, I can’t see it being needed as part of a regular schedule.
As far as I'm aware the system is set up for two twins of the current units, not sure about anything longer than that

Correct, the only time that there have been more than 3 units is for some special events (i.e. GNR) but even this was rare, only a specific number used and not been done for a good few years. 3/4 car units is also a problem as there are only a limited number of cars 'drawing power' which can be used within a 'overhead line section' e.g. Monument to Gosforth, Monument to Old Fold etc.
Hmmm, maybe the new cars will help. Apparently they draw 30% less energy from the overhead lines, and they can drive on battery power for 45 minutes.
Maybe this would be enough to help have longer units in certain areas?

Offline Pilko

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1253 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 06:41:48 PM »
They need to invent a way to stop leaves falling from the trees otherwise all this investment will be fruitless come the first autumn.
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Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1254 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 06:58:31 PM »
I wish they would run longer trains. Some platforms would need extending but its a super simple way to add capacity.

Also all the angry people on that tweet going on about how the trains should be built locally, even though Hitachi pulled out of the bidding...
The new trains will be as long as the 2 cars units that are often used right now.
The system was built with longer cars in mind and all platforms are capable of handling cars double the length they are now. I think for some underground stations this means the removal of a partitioning was, which is easily achieved.
Fairly sure two twins was the norm till the Sunderland expansion.

Also there'll be a lot more to it than just platforms etc if the trains were longer, sighting of track circuiting for example could alter the running of the system if not moved, where possible to take longer trains into account.
I’m pretty sure everything was set up from day 1 for longer trains. Like I said all the infrastructure is in place for longer. Some stations may need railings to be taken out, but I’m pretty sure everything else is set to go and they could run them tomorrow if they could.

All this is fairly mute in anyway. 99% of the time there is no justification for longer trains, even at rush hour the city centre gets a train every 3 minutes.
The only time you could say it would be justified would be for events/match day. That is only for short periods of time though.
The new trains will have linear seating, which allows for more standing space. Overall the new trains will have a larger capacity than the existing ones. Unless Newcastle see’s a dramatic increase in population, I can’t see it being needed as part of a regular schedule.
As far as I'm aware the system is set up for two twins of the current units, not sure about anything longer than that

Correct, the only time that there have been more than 3 units is for some special events (i.e. GNR) but even this was rare, only a specific number used and not been done for a good few years. 3/4 car units is also a problem as there are only a limited number of cars 'drawing power' which can be used within a 'overhead line section' e.g. Monument to Gosforth, Monument to Old Fold etc.
Hmmm, maybe the new cars will help. Apparently they draw 30% less energy from the overhead lines, and they can drive on battery power for 45 minutes.
Maybe this would be enough to help have longer units in certain areas?

Then you have the problem of a good few platforms around the system not being long enough to have 3 sets. This is a massive cost and massive disruption to then increase the length of these platforms. Just can't see it happening. Even when 3 set trains have been used previously for special events they have operated directly between two stations which can facilitate 3 car sets as a rapid shuttle service (e.g. GNR Haymarket - South Shields).

Offline Adam^

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1255 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 07:28:34 PM »
Then you have the problem of a good few platforms around the system not being long enough to have 3 sets. This is a massive cost and massive disruption to then increase the length of these platforms. Just can't see it happening. Even when 3 set trains have been used previously for special events they have operated directly between two stations which can facilitate 3 car sets as a rapid shuttle service (e.g. GNR Haymarket - South Shields).

I dont think thats the case. They could be extended at evenings, its a case of laying some bricks and concrete to extend something 30m or so. Some places may need signals moving but being able to run longer trains with more capacity seems an obvious solution to me.

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1256 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 08:14:25 PM »
Then you have the problem of a good few platforms around the system not being long enough to have 3 sets. This is a massive cost and massive disruption to then increase the length of these platforms. Just can't see it happening. Even when 3 set trains have been used previously for special events they have operated directly between two stations which can facilitate 3 car sets as a rapid shuttle service (e.g. GNR Haymarket - South Shields).

I dont think thats the case. They could be extended at evenings, its a case of laying some bricks and concrete to extend something 30m or so. Some places may need signals moving but being able to run longer trains with more capacity seems an obvious solution to me.

As someone who has worked at Nexus for 30 years as an Engineer it is the case; you are not only talking about platforms; you are talking foundation, embankment, signalling, track work etc. etc. etc. etc You can not only do it within night work. Love it when people think they have the answer made up in their own heads with no knowledge on how railway engineering works

Offline LoveItIfWeBeatU

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1257 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 09:56:28 PM »
Godzilla, I understand the Metro trains have to be made bespoke as the dimensions are unique when it comes to tunnel clearance, platform height, etc. Is it usual for rail networks across the country (not to mention Europe and the rest of the World) to need unique trains? You'd imagine platform heights, tunnel clearance, track width, etc would have been standardised where possible. It would have saved a fortune if all trains worked everywhere.
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Offline Stifleaay

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1258 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 10:08:36 PM »
Godzilla, I understand the Metro trains have to be made bespoke as the dimensions are unique when it comes to tunnel clearance, platform height, etc. Is it usual for rail networks across the country (not to mention Europe and the rest of the World) to need unique trains? You'd imagine platform heights, tunnel clearance, track width, etc would have been standardised where possible. It would have saved a fortune if all trains worked everywhere.
The Metro runs in tunnels that are over 100 years old. Things like this predate modern standardisation, the only thing standard about is the track gauge. The Metro even runs on a different electrical current to most railways.
Stadler are building the new Mersey Rail trains, and even their system requires some sort of bespoke alterations.
The London Underground has different rolling stock for different limes. Some of them have a very small height restriction.
The same is said for Glasgow’s system which has recently taken new rolling stock.

It is fairly common for Metro system’s in particular to need some sort of bespoke alterations.

Offline Adam^

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1259 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 10:21:19 PM »
Then you have the problem of a good few platforms around the system not being long enough to have 3 sets. This is a massive cost and massive disruption to then increase the length of these platforms. Just can't see it happening. Even when 3 set trains have been used previously for special events they have operated directly between two stations which can facilitate 3 car sets as a rapid shuttle service (e.g. GNR Haymarket - South Shields).

I dont think thats the case. They could be extended at evenings, its a case of laying some bricks and concrete to extend something 30m or so. Some places may need signals moving but being able to run longer trains with more capacity seems an obvious solution to me.

As someone who has worked at Nexus for 30 years as an Engineer it is the case; you are not only talking about platforms; you are talking foundation, embankment, signalling, track work etc. etc. etc. etc You can not only do it within night work. Love it when people think they have the answer made up in their own heads with no knowledge on how railway engineering works

Fair enough, you have the knowledge. Would it not be beneficial in the long term to upgrade these parts of the system to allow more capacity without having to fit more trains on to the network?

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1260 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 11:15:40 PM »
Godzilla, I understand the Metro trains have to be made bespoke as the dimensions are unique when it comes to tunnel clearance, platform height, etc. Is it usual for rail networks across the country (not to mention Europe and the rest of the World) to need unique trains? You'd imagine platform heights, tunnel clearance, track width, etc would have been standardised where possible. It would have saved a fortune if all trains worked everywhere.

Light rail and main line rail are totally different and always have been, and for certainly the foreseeable future will remain that way. Won’t argue with what you’re saying just don’t think it will change.

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1261 on: Tuesday 28 January 2020, 11:19:52 PM »
Then you have the problem of a good few platforms around the system not being long enough to have 3 sets. This is a massive cost and massive disruption to then increase the length of these platforms. Just can't see it happening. Even when 3 set trains have been used previously for special events they have operated directly between two stations which can facilitate 3 car sets as a rapid shuttle service (e.g. GNR Haymarket - South Shields).

I dont think thats the case. They could be extended at evenings, its a case of laying some bricks and concrete to extend something 30m or so. Some places may need signals moving but being able to run longer trains with more capacity seems an obvious solution to me.

As someone who has worked at Nexus for 30 years as an Engineer it is the case; you are not only talking about platforms; you are talking foundation, embankment, signalling, track work etc. etc. etc. etc You can not only do it within night work. Love it when people think they have the answer made up in their own heads with no knowledge on how railway engineering works

Fair enough, you have the knowledge. Would it not be beneficial in the long term to upgrade these parts of the system to allow more capacity without having to fit more trains on to the network?

Wouldn’t argue it may be more advantageous to do so; but the fact that it would cause mass disruption, major costs and that Nexus is a non profit public organisation, I just can’t see it happening.
« Last Edit: Wednesday 29 January 2020, 01:54:10 AM by godzilla »

Offline PCW1983

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1262 on: Saturday 8 February 2020, 04:56:11 AM »
Then you have the problem of a good few platforms around the system not being long enough to have 3 sets. This is a massive cost and massive disruption to then increase the length of these platforms. Just can't see it happening. Even when 3 set trains have been used previously for special events they have operated directly between two stations which can facilitate 3 car sets as a rapid shuttle service (e.g. GNR Haymarket - South Shields).

I dont think thats the case. They could be extended at evenings, its a case of laying some bricks and concrete to extend something 30m or so. Some places may need signals moving but being able to run longer trains with more capacity seems an obvious solution to me.

As someone who has worked at Nexus for 30 years as an Engineer it is the case; you are not only talking about platforms; you are talking foundation, embankment, signalling, track work etc. etc. etc. etc You can not only do it within night work. Love it when people think they have the answer made up in their own heads with no knowledge on how railway engineering works

Fair enough, you have the knowledge. Would it not be beneficial in the long term to upgrade these parts of the system to allow more capacity without having to fit more trains on to the network?

Wouldn’t argue it may be more advantageous to do so; but the fact that it would cause mass disruption, major costs and that Nexus is a non profit public organisation, I just can’t see it happening.

My personal view is that whilst what passengers expect from the Metro system hasn’t changed overly much (a regular, punctual service) the investment into the network is absurdly inadequate and hasn’t increased in line with the demand on the network. My understanding that the maintenance budget for the network is circa £40m, that may sound a lot but in reality it’s pennies.
Additionally the £300m modernisation investment is spread across 10 years and isn’t limited to just that actual rail infrastructure, £3 million doesn’t get you a lot for a railway especially when you’re contracting in the renewal works.

What I’m trying to say is that the level of investment year on year for general maintenance of the network should be increased to ensure the network can continue to support the demands.
I’m fairly sure that outside of unit breakdowns the highest attribute to lost headway minutes is Signalling Failures then OHL....new units won’t fix a system just a part of it.

Time for the councils to put their hands on there pockets.
 
Never give up - Winston Churchill

Offline PCW1983

  • General Member
  • I love my b****** dog.
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1263 on: Saturday 8 February 2020, 05:05:01 AM »
Then you have the problem of a good few platforms around the system not being long enough to have 3 sets. This is a massive cost and massive disruption to then increase the length of these platforms. Just can't see it happening. Even when 3 set trains have been used previously for special events they have operated directly between two stations which can facilitate 3 car sets as a rapid shuttle service (e.g. GNR Haymarket - South Shields).

I dont think thats the case. They could be extended at evenings, its a case of laying some bricks and concrete to extend something 30m or so. Some places may need signals moving but being able to run longer trains with more capacity seems an obvious solution to me.

As someone who has worked at Nexus for 30 years as an Engineer it is the case; you are not only talking about platforms; you are talking foundation, embankment, signalling, track work etc. etc. etc. etc You can not only do it within night work. Love it when people think they have the answer made up in their own heads with no knowledge on how railway engineering works

Fair enough, you have the knowledge. Would it not be beneficial in the long term to upgrade these parts of the system to allow more capacity without having to fit more trains on to the network?

Wouldn’t argue it may be more advantageous to do so; but the fact that it would cause mass disruption, major costs and that Nexus is a non profit public organisation, I just can’t see it happening.

My personal view is that whilst what passengers expect from the Metro system hasn’t changed overly much (a regular, punctual service) the investment into the network is absurdly inadequate and hasn’t increased in line with the demand on the network. My understanding that the maintenance budget for the network is circa £40m, that may sound a lot but in reality it’s pennies.
Additionally the £300m modernisation investment is spread across 10 years and isn’t limited to just that actual rail infrastructure, £3 million doesn’t get you a lot for a railway especially when you’re contracting in the renewal works.

What I’m trying to say is that the level of investment year on year for general maintenance of the network should be increased to ensure the network can continue to support the demands.
I’m fairly sure that outside of unit breakdowns the highest attribute to lost headway minutes is Signalling Failures then OHL....new units won’t fix a system just a part of it.

Time for the councils to put their hands on there pockets.

I’ll also add to this as sensitively as I can, my experience of Nexus is that they need to break out of the bubble they’ve been trapped in for many years and certainly to start with they should take a good look at their asset and defect management process, because my experience of it is that it’s fairly poor.

Never give up - Winston Churchill

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1264 on: Saturday 8 February 2020, 11:58:26 AM »
Then you have the problem of a good few platforms around the system not being long enough to have 3 sets. This is a massive cost and massive disruption to then increase the length of these platforms. Just can't see it happening. Even when 3 set trains have been used previously for special events they have operated directly between two stations which can facilitate 3 car sets as a rapid shuttle service (e.g. GNR Haymarket - South Shields).

I dont think thats the case. They could be extended at evenings, its a case of laying some bricks and concrete to extend something 30m or so. Some places may need signals moving but being able to run longer trains with more capacity seems an obvious solution to me.

As someone who has worked at Nexus for 30 years as an Engineer it is the case; you are not only talking about platforms; you are talking foundation, embankment, signalling, track work etc. etc. etc. etc You can not only do it within night work. Love it when people think they have the answer made up in their own heads with no knowledge on how railway engineering works

Fair enough, you have the knowledge. Would it not be beneficial in the long term to upgrade these parts of the system to allow more capacity without having to fit more trains on to the network?

Wouldn’t argue it may be more advantageous to do so; but the fact that it would cause mass disruption, major costs and that Nexus is a non profit public organisation, I just can’t see it happening.

My personal view is that whilst what passengers expect from the Metro system hasn’t changed overly much (a regular, punctual service) the investment into the network is absurdly inadequate and hasn’t increased in line with the demand on the network. My understanding that the maintenance budget for the network is circa £40m, that may sound a lot but in reality it’s pennies.
Additionally the £300m modernisation investment is spread across 10 years and isn’t limited to just that actual rail infrastructure, £3 million doesn’t get you a lot for a railway especially when you’re contracting in the renewal works.

What I’m trying to say is that the level of investment year on year for general maintenance of the network should be increased to ensure the network can continue to support the demands.
I’m fairly sure that outside of unit breakdowns the highest attribute to lost headway minutes is Signalling Failures then OHL....new units won’t fix a system just a part of it.

Time for the councils to put their hands on there pockets.

I’ll also add to this as sensitively as I can, my experience of Nexus is that they need to break out of the bubble they’ve been trapped in for many years and certainly to start with they should take a good look at their asset and defect management process, because my experience of it is that it’s fairly poor.

As you said the management process is only as good as the funds available to carry it out. Think you will see a massive improvement when the new fleet arrives as this is the major downfall currently. Wasn't that long ago when the Metro was the most reliable and punctual service in the country.