Author Topic: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions  (Read 64348 times)

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Offline godzilla

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1175 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 09:53:48 PM »
I just can't work out why it's more than double a bus drivers salary, are the roles that different?
I'd guess driving a bus is more like driving a car, driving a train will often be higher speed, more passengers and lack of ability to avoid obstructions so much more safety regulated ie rules and regs type thing.
Maybe a minibus, but not a big single decker or double decker. HGV/busses drive differently to cars. They have air brakes, air assisted power steering, bigger turning circles, massive blind spots etc.
Yeah but if something is in the way you can still stop relatively quickly or steer away to avoid, that's what I mean.
I’m not so sure. There is a noticeable stopping distance.
I did my category C (rigid trucks) licence last month. In that weeks worth of training, I have never been cut of by other drivers, had people walk out in front of me, or people do stupid manoeuvres to get around me as I have in 10 years or so of driving.
As soon as someone see’s a large vehicle like that, they feel like they have more time to pull out in front of you, overtake etc. With my dad being a wagon driver, I have always considered to have more respect for drivers of bigger vehicles than the average road user, but that week my respect went through the roof.
My dad warmed me, other drivers warned me, but f***ing hell, I never thought it would be so noticeable/bad as that.

It can take up to 100 metres for a train to come to a stop from the operation of the track brake on a train, far more time than a bus.

Offline madras

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1176 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 09:56:03 PM »
I just can't work out why it's more than double a bus drivers salary, are the roles that different?
I'd guess driving a bus is more like driving a car, driving a train will often be higher speed, more passengers and lack of ability to avoid obstructions so much more safety regulated ie rules and regs type thing.
Maybe a minibus, but not a big single decker or double decker. HGV/busses drive differently to cars. They have air brakes, air assisted power steering, bigger turning circles, massive blind spots etc.
Yeah but if something is in the way you can still stop relatively quickly or steer away to avoid, that's what I mean.
I’m not so sure. There is a noticeable stopping distance.
I did my category C (rigid trucks) licence last month. In that weeks worth of training, I have never been cut of by other drivers, had people walk out in front of me, or people do stupid manoeuvres to get around me as I have in 10 years or so of driving.
As soon as someone see’s a large vehicle like that, they feel like they have more time to pull out in front of you, overtake etc. With my dad being a wagon driver, I have always considered to have more respect for drivers of bigger vehicles than the average road user, but that week my respect went through the roof.
My dad warmed me, other drivers warned me, but f***ing hell, I never thought it would be so noticeable/bad as that.

It can take up to 100 metres for a train to come to a stop from the operation of the track brake on a train, far more time than a bus.
and much longer than that for heavyvrail.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1177 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 09:56:53 PM »
I just can't work out why it's more than double a bus drivers salary, are the roles that different?
I'd guess driving a bus is more like driving a car, driving a train will often be higher speed, more passengers and lack of ability to avoid obstructions so much more safety regulated ie rules and regs type thing.
Maybe a minibus, but not a big single decker or double decker. HGV/busses drive differently to cars. They have air brakes, air assisted power steering, bigger turning circles, massive blind spots etc.
Yeah but if something is in the way you can still stop relatively quickly or steer away to avoid, that's what I mean.
I’m not so sure. There is a noticeable stopping distance.
I did my category C (rigid trucks) licence last month. In that weeks worth of training, I have never been cut of by other drivers, had people walk out in front of me, or people do stupid manoeuvres to get around me as I have in 10 years or so of driving.
As soon as someone see’s a large vehicle like that, they feel like they have more time to pull out in front of you, overtake etc. With my dad being a wagon driver, I have always considered to have more respect for drivers of bigger vehicles than the average road user, but that week my respect went through the roof.
My dad warmed me, other drivers warned me, but f***ing hell, I never thought it would be so noticeable/bad as that.

It can take up to 100 metres for a train to come to a stop from the operation of the track brake on a train, far more time than a bus.
and much longer than that for heavyvrail.

Correct

Offline Infinitely Content

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1178 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 09:57:04 PM »
And as I've stated before practically all local operators are recruiting at the minute so one of them would be bound to be overjoyed to have you Stiffles.


:lol:

They do good, valuable work. It matters. 47k is a lot of money, but I'm behind them. Many get paid way more than that for doing far less. I know, I work with them every day.

Online neesy111

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1179 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:09:20 PM »
I've got no issue with the metro drivers wanting more money but doing it the busiest weekend of the year isn't going to get you many supporters.

Whole thing highlights how transport is completely disregarded from public accounts, never been in another country where transport costs so much as the UK.

Offline madras

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1180 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:15:26 PM »
I've got no issue with the metro drivers wanting more money but doing it the busiest weekend of the year isn't going to get you many supporters.

Whole thing highlights how transport is completely disregarded from public accounts, never been in another country where transport costs so much as the UK.
I agree with their timing being bad, got to win over the punters imo. However by using their big card they may have thought theyd get what they wanted or at least show they mean business.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline Stifleaay

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1181 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:37:15 PM »
I just can't work out why it's more than double a bus drivers salary, are the roles that different?
I'd guess driving a bus is more like driving a car, driving a train will often be higher speed, more passengers and lack of ability to avoid obstructions so much more safety regulated ie rules and regs type thing.
Maybe a minibus, but not a big single decker or double decker. HGV/busses drive differently to cars. They have air brakes, air assisted power steering, bigger turning circles, massive blind spots etc.
Yeah but if something is in the way you can still stop relatively quickly or steer away to avoid, that's what I mean.
I’m not so sure. There is a noticeable stopping distance.
I did my category C (rigid trucks) licence last month. In that weeks worth of training, I have never been cut of by other drivers, had people walk out in front of me, or people do stupid manoeuvres to get around me as I have in 10 years or so of driving.
As soon as someone see’s a large vehicle like that, they feel like they have more time to pull out in front of you, overtake etc. With my dad being a wagon driver, I have always considered to have more respect for drivers of bigger vehicles than the average road user, but that week my respect went through the roof.
My dad warmed me, other drivers warned me, but f***ing hell, I never thought it would be so noticeable/bad as that.

It can take up to 100 metres for a train to come to a stop from the operation of the track brake on a train, far more time than a bus.
There are more variables on what can happen in a bus etc. That is my point. With a Metro train you don’t really have other traffic, and the ones you pointed out in the last message, I’m pretty sure the Metro have priority on these lines.
In my opinion driving a bus or wagon would be considerably harder than driving a Metro train.
I think it’s worth saying that when the Metro first arrived, it was and largely is still dominated by former bus drivers. My view is that they saw this a better paid and possibly easier job than driving a bus.

My overall opinion is that in comparison to other jobs, the proposed £47k is a generous wage. Ok so they have have long hours and have to work some rubbish shifts, but plenty of people in jobs where they also work under similar conditions get paid less, as has been pointed out. Ultimately they aren’t going to get much sympathy from these people.

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1182 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:37:35 PM »
I've got no issue with the metro drivers wanting more money but doing it the busiest weekend of the year isn't going to get you many supporters.

Whole thing highlights how transport is completely disregarded from public accounts, never been in another country where transport costs so much as the UK.

Agree I know they want maximum effect but I think they should have picked better days. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you is a true saying.

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1183 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:39:20 PM »
I just can't work out why it's more than double a bus drivers salary, are the roles that different?
I'd guess driving a bus is more like driving a car, driving a train will often be higher speed, more passengers and lack of ability to avoid obstructions so much more safety regulated ie rules and regs type thing.
Maybe a minibus, but not a big single decker or double decker. HGV/busses drive differently to cars. They have air brakes, air assisted power steering, bigger turning circles, massive blind spots etc.
Yeah but if something is in the way you can still stop relatively quickly or steer away to avoid, that's what I mean.
I’m not so sure. There is a noticeable stopping distance.
I did my category C (rigid trucks) licence last month. In that weeks worth of training, I have never been cut of by other drivers, had people walk out in front of me, or people do stupid manoeuvres to get around me as I have in 10 years or so of driving.
As soon as someone see’s a large vehicle like that, they feel like they have more time to pull out in front of you, overtake etc. With my dad being a wagon driver, I have always considered to have more respect for drivers of bigger vehicles than the average road user, but that week my respect went through the roof.
My dad warmed me, other drivers warned me, but f***ing hell, I never thought it would be so noticeable/bad as that.

It can take up to 100 metres for a train to come to a stop from the operation of the track brake on a train, far more time than a bus.
There are more variables on what can happen in a bus etc. That is my point. With you a Metro train you don’t really have other traffic, and the ones you pointed out in the last message, I’m pretty sure the Metro have priority on these lines.
In my opinion driving a bus or wagon would be considerably harder than driving a Metro train.
I think it’s worth saying that when the Metro first arrived, it was and largely is still dominated by former bus drivers. My view is that they saw this a better paid and possibly easier job than driving a bus.

My overall opinion is that in comparison to other jobs, the proposed £47k is a generous wage. Ok so they have have long hours and have to work some rubbish shifts, but plenty of people in jobs where they also work under similar conditions get paid less, as has been pointed out. Ultimately they aren’t going to get much sympathy from these people.

It’s not considerably harder man.  There is a lot more involved driving a metro than a bus and that also comes from the ex bus drivers you mention who became metro drivers

Offline Stifleaay

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1184 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:45:59 PM »
I just can't work out why it's more than double a bus drivers salary, are the roles that different?
I'd guess driving a bus is more like driving a car, driving a train will often be higher speed, more passengers and lack of ability to avoid obstructions so much more safety regulated ie rules and regs type thing.
Maybe a minibus, but not a big single decker or double decker. HGV/busses drive differently to cars. They have air brakes, air assisted power steering, bigger turning circles, massive blind spots etc.
Yeah but if something is in the way you can still stop relatively quickly or steer away to avoid, that's what I mean.
I’m not so sure. There is a noticeable stopping distance.
I did my category C (rigid trucks) licence last month. In that weeks worth of training, I have never been cut of by other drivers, had people walk out in front of me, or people do stupid manoeuvres to get around me as I have in 10 years or so of driving.
As soon as someone see’s a large vehicle like that, they feel like they have more time to pull out in front of you, overtake etc. With my dad being a wagon driver, I have always considered to have more respect for drivers of bigger vehicles than the average road user, but that week my respect went through the roof.
My dad warmed me, other drivers warned me, but f***ing hell, I never thought it would be so noticeable/bad as that.
Yeah and you were able to stop or take avoidable action. That's what I was saying wasnt it. I'd guess it would be different ina train. Probably why they are so strict on signals etc and why train crashes tend to be worse than bus crashes.
With a bus or wagon you have traffic from all directions to consider. You drive a Metro train and so long as you pay attention to the signals on the line, then there is a 99.9% chance there isn’t another train on the lines ahead of you. Ok so you could have other objects/people coming into the tracks, but so is true of road vehicles.

Offline Stifleaay

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1185 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:48:31 PM »
On two of the busiest Christmas party days of the year too, hope Nexus get loads and loads of stick off the general public.

Nexus can't do anything about it if the drivers refuse offers and are determined to strike. As for all union strikes they will always choose a time which will have the maximum effect.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make - I don't blame the drivers in the slightest, their working conditions will be s**** and I'd be embarrassed to say I worked for Nexus if someone asked me at a dinner party or something.

I just hope Nexus themselves get loads of flak, they're f***ing pathetic.

I did for 30 years, am I embarrassed to say I did, certainly not. Many are here are actually astonished that the drivers are being offered so much, to which I have tried to give a bit more insight into why. You also have to remember that Nexus is a public operated company and as such has strict budgets set. It also is an organisation which does not operate at a profit either. The conditions, which WERE accepted by the drivers for a significant rise, was from when the old inspectors and drivers were merged about 15 year ago.

Nexus want more flexibility with the working hours to combat the shortage of drivers (another thing the are slammed for). Nexus has made an offer based on financial restrictions (a north east super wage according to many on here and within the north east), to try and substantiate this with the councils, who are the ones who set these financial restrictions, they have attempted to amend the working hours to ensure that there are savings made in the number of trains being cancelled/delayed, which results in high costs. The drivers have knocked this back, so good luck to them as I have many friends who are affected. The other way to give this pay increase is to have job losses in other areas of the company and a cut back on maintenance/repairs, which then occurs more flack and costs. Nexus can only go by their financial restrictions with it being a public company, so I certainly disagree with this total blame on Nexus as it certainly isn't, you need to look at the Council funding also throughout the last 40 year.

The drivers are always going to choose the busiest times to get the maximum effect and keep the pressure on.

£52k would make them among the highest average salaries in the UK.  For a metro driver.  That's a higher average salary than a doctor ffs.  Even £37k puts them on the upper end of the scale for a job which isn't particularly skilled or requiring advanced qualifications or extended study.

Yeap, I'm an experienced it developer and I wouldn't mind that in the north east.

The drivers are just trying to get the same wages as other drivers in different areas of the country. Should other work areas be paid more, without a doubt yes. It is quite a skilled job mind as there is way more involved than just driving a train, which is not as straight forward either as you seem to think.

I dont get the same wages as other project managers in other parts of the country? There has always been a pay gap between different regions with the north east losing out? Why should metro drivers be any different?
Metro drivers might not get a lot compared to mainline train operators, however there is other things which balance it out.
First off all they aren’t on a mainline train. They are running trains on a loop with trains on average 10 minutes apart from each other. Not on a national line where they have to be in a certain place by the minute or Althea whole system comes backed up.
They don’t have to deal with the same levels of suicides etc as mainline trains drivers do.
They get to go home at night. A lot of train drivers on the mainline networks don’t get to do that each night.

£47k is a lot of money for the amount of work they do (they are limited to how many hours they can do), and for the region in which they live in.
Yeah ok so they are being asked to be available for more weekends, however look at retail workers, hospital staff etc who all have to do that and work more hours in general. These people get less of a choice of picking and choosing when they work, and since the Metro drivers are largely driving these people to and from work, there must be some understanding at how these people are p*ssed off at the disruption they are causing for them, and the reasons why.
I do think people should stand up for workers rights etc, but this isn’t a case of jobs going, or a proposed severly diminished working conditions. This is £47k for working a few weekends and banks holidays.
Give me £47k, I’ll have the trains running on Christmas Day.

Utter tosh:

1. They actually have to operate between more signals, track circuits and points during their shift than mainline trains.
2. They do run on a mainline within Network Rail infrastructure, which means operating between Northern Trains, Grand Central, Freight trains etc.
3, If they do not arrive at South Gosforth and Pelaw at the right time then there is automatically a back up of trains. Between Pelaw and South Gosforth the average frequency of trains is on average 4 minutes during peak periods and 7.5 minutes during non-peak hours. There is far more likelihood of Metro trains being backed up.
4. The average Metro driver is statistically more likely to encounter a suicide than any mainline operator.
5. Mainline operators do not have the abuse that Metro drivers have from passengers.
6. They might go home at night, but then again mainline drivers are put up at hotels and are then (after completing their return journey home the next day) given a rest day within their roster. Metro drivers can work up to 10 days in a row within their roster.
7. They are being asked to work more hours overtime not just weekends as you state.
8. The Metro drivers frequently work over 11 plus hours in a shift, not many mainline TOCs do and if they do not as frequently..

If you're going to compare and criticise get your facts right first.
They are only allowed to work 11 hours a shift on a certain amount of shifts a week (2).
They are not allowed to work 10 days in a row, it’s against the working time directive. If they are working 10 days in a row then they and Nexus are breaking the law.

Offline madras

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  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1186 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:49:38 PM »
I just can't work out why it's more than double a bus drivers salary, are the roles that different?
I'd guess driving a bus is more like driving a car, driving a train will often be higher speed, more passengers and lack of ability to avoid obstructions so much more safety regulated ie rules and regs type thing.
Maybe a minibus, but not a big single decker or double decker. HGV/busses drive differently to cars. They have air brakes, air assisted power steering, bigger turning circles, massive blind spots etc.
Yeah but if something is in the way you can still stop relatively quickly or steer away to avoid, that's what I mean.
I’m not so sure. There is a noticeable stopping distance.
I did my category C (rigid trucks) licence last month. In that weeks worth of training, I have never been cut of by other drivers, had people walk out in front of me, or people do stupid manoeuvres to get around me as I have in 10 years or so of driving.
As soon as someone see’s a large vehicle like that, they feel like they have more time to pull out in front of you, overtake etc. With my dad being a wagon driver, I have always considered to have more respect for drivers of bigger vehicles than the average road user, but that week my respect went through the roof.
My dad warmed me, other drivers warned me, but f***ing hell, I never thought it would be so noticeable/bad as that.

It can take up to 100 metres for a train to come to a stop from the operation of the track brake on a train, far more time than a bus.
There are more variables on what can happen in a bus etc. That is my point. With a Metro train you don’t really have other traffic, and the ones you pointed out in the last message, I’m pretty sure the Metro have priority on these lines.
In my opinion driving a bus or wagon would be considerably harder than driving a Metro train.
I think it’s worth saying that when the Metro first arrived, it was and largely is still dominated by former bus drivers. My view is that they saw this a better paid and possibly easier job than driving a bus.

My overall opinion is that in comparison to other jobs, the proposed £47k is a generous wage. Ok so they have have long hours and have to work some rubbish shifts, but plenty of people in jobs where they also work under similar conditions get paid less, as has been pointed out. Ultimately they aren’t going to get much sympathy from these people.
The metro doesnt have priority and what does that even mean when trains are following each other ? In this arguement your opinion counts for little when your talking to someone (godzilla)  with experience.

Also I know someone who was a bus driver and is in training to be a train driver......guess which they think is more difficult?

Also many train drivers fro the old Gosforth sheds and Newcastle suburban were among the first tranche of metro drivers.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline madras

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1187 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:51:31 PM »
On two of the busiest Christmas party days of the year too, hope Nexus get loads and loads of stick off the general public.

Nexus can't do anything about it if the drivers refuse offers and are determined to strike. As for all union strikes they will always choose a time which will have the maximum effect.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make - I don't blame the drivers in the slightest, their working conditions will be s**** and I'd be embarrassed to say I worked for Nexus if someone asked me at a dinner party or something.

I just hope Nexus themselves get loads of flak, they're f***ing pathetic.

I did for 30 years, am I embarrassed to say I did, certainly not. Many are here are actually astonished that the drivers are being offered so much, to which I have tried to give a bit more insight into why. You also have to remember that Nexus is a public operated company and as such has strict budgets set. It also is an organisation which does not operate at a profit either. The conditions, which WERE accepted by the drivers for a significant rise, was from when the old inspectors and drivers were merged about 15 year ago.

Nexus want more flexibility with the working hours to combat the shortage of drivers (another thing the are slammed for). Nexus has made an offer based on financial restrictions (a north east super wage according to many on here and within the north east), to try and substantiate this with the councils, who are the ones who set these financial restrictions, they have attempted to amend the working hours to ensure that there are savings made in the number of trains being cancelled/delayed, which results in high costs. The drivers have knocked this back, so good luck to them as I have many friends who are affected. The other way to give this pay increase is to have job losses in other areas of the company and a cut back on maintenance/repairs, which then occurs more flack and costs. Nexus can only go by their financial restrictions with it being a public company, so I certainly disagree with this total blame on Nexus as it certainly isn't, you need to look at the Council funding also throughout the last 40 year.

The drivers are always going to choose the busiest times to get the maximum effect and keep the pressure on.

£52k would make them among the highest average salaries in the UK.  For a metro driver.  That's a higher average salary than a doctor ffs.  Even £37k puts them on the upper end of the scale for a job which isn't particularly skilled or requiring advanced qualifications or extended study.

Yeap, I'm an experienced it developer and I wouldn't mind that in the north east.

The drivers are just trying to get the same wages as other drivers in different areas of the country. Should other work areas be paid more, without a doubt yes. It is quite a skilled job mind as there is way more involved than just driving a train, which is not as straight forward either as you seem to think.

I dont get the same wages as other project managers in other parts of the country? There has always been a pay gap between different regions with the north east losing out? Why should metro drivers be any different?
Metro drivers might not get a lot compared to mainline train operators, however there is other things which balance it out.
First off all they aren’t on a mainline train. They are running trains on a loop with trains on average 10 minutes apart from each other. Not on a national line where they have to be in a certain place by the minute or Althea whole system comes backed up.
They don’t have to deal with the same levels of suicides etc as mainline trains drivers do.
They get to go home at night. A lot of train drivers on the mainline networks don’t get to do that each night.

£47k is a lot of money for the amount of work they do (they are limited to how many hours they can do), and for the region in which they live in.
Yeah ok so they are being asked to be available for more weekends, however look at retail workers, hospital staff etc who all have to do that and work more hours in general. These people get less of a choice of picking and choosing when they work, and since the Metro drivers are largely driving these people to and from work, there must be some understanding at how these people are p*ssed off at the disruption they are causing for them, and the reasons why.
I do think people should stand up for workers rights etc, but this isn’t a case of jobs going, or a proposed severly diminished working conditions. This is £47k for working a few weekends and banks holidays.
Give me £47k, I’ll have the trains running on Christmas Day.

Utter tosh:

1. They actually have to operate between more signals, track circuits and points during their shift than mainline trains.
2. They do run on a mainline within Network Rail infrastructure, which means operating between Northern Trains, Grand Central, Freight trains etc.
3, If they do not arrive at South Gosforth and Pelaw at the right time then there is automatically a back up of trains. Between Pelaw and South Gosforth the average frequency of trains is on average 4 minutes during peak periods and 7.5 minutes during non-peak hours. There is far more likelihood of Metro trains being backed up.
4. The average Metro driver is statistically more likely to encounter a suicide than any mainline operator.
5. Mainline operators do not have the abuse that Metro drivers have from passengers.
6. They might go home at night, but then again mainline drivers are put up at hotels and are then (after completing their return journey home the next day) given a rest day within their roster. Metro drivers can work up to 10 days in a row within their roster.
7. They are being asked to work more hours overtime not just weekends as you state.
8. The Metro drivers frequently work over 11 plus hours in a shift, not many mainline TOCs do and if they do not as frequently..

If you're going to compare and criticise get your facts right first.
They are only allowed to work 11 hours a shift on a certain amount of shifts a week (2).
They are not allowed to work 10 days in a row, it’s against the working time directive. If they are working 10 days in a row then they and Nexus are breaking the law.
That's wrong.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline Stifleaay

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1188 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:54:26 PM »
And as I've stated before practically all local operators are recruiting at the minute so one of them would be bound to be overjoyed to have you Stiffles.
I love how anytime I disagree with people there is always sarcastic comments like this aimed at me.
I’ve worked hard, trained hard to where I have got so far.
I admit I need experience, but I’m working towards something. I hate how everytime I disagree, I always get things thrown back in my face like this.

Offline midds

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1189 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:56:22 PM »
I think transporting hundreds of people increases the pressure massively like. Responsibility for making sure people get to and from their journey for 11 hours off the bounce must be tough. If I have a bad day at work and make a few mistakes at least I know no-one dies. Can't be the same for them, it's not a pressure I'd want.

Offline Stifleaay

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Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1190 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 10:57:17 PM »
I think transporting hundreds of people increases the pressure massively like. Responsibility for making sure people get to and from their journey for 11 hours off the bounce must be tough. If I have a bad day at work and make a few mistakes at least I know no-one dies. Can't be the same for them, it's not a pressure I'd want.
Same can be said for any driving job, and various other jobs.

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1191 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 11:00:07 PM »
And as I've stated before practically all local operators are recruiting at the minute so one of them would be bound to be overjoyed to have you Stiffles.
I love how anytime I disagree with people there is always sarcastic comments like this aimed at me.
I’ve worked hard, trained hard to where I have got so far.
I admit I need experience, but I’m working towards something. I hate how everytime I disagree, I always get things thrown back in my face like this.
Its not sarcastic. You thinks it's easy and well paid, f***ing go for it kidda.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline midds

  • Administrator
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1192 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 11:01:33 PM »
I think transporting hundreds of people increases the pressure massively like. Responsibility for making sure people get to and from their journey for 11 hours off the bounce must be tough. If I have a bad day at work and make a few mistakes at least I know no-one dies. Can't be the same for them, it's not a pressure I'd want.
Same can be said for any driving job, and various other jobs.

Absolutely :thup:

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1193 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 11:05:07 PM »
I think transporting hundreds of people increases the pressure massively like. Responsibility for making sure people get to and from their journey for 11 hours off the bounce must be tough. If I have a bad day at work and make a few mistakes at least I know no-one dies. Can't be the same for them, it's not a pressure I'd want.
Same can be said for any driving job, and various other jobs.

Absolutely :thup:
Which other driving jobs ferry about hundreds at a time, cant avoid collisions and can take up to half a mile to stop ?
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1194 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 11:08:21 PM »
On two of the busiest Christmas party days of the year too, hope Nexus get loads and loads of stick off the general public.

Nexus can't do anything about it if the drivers refuse offers and are determined to strike. As for all union strikes they will always choose a time which will have the maximum effect.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make - I don't blame the drivers in the slightest, their working conditions will be s**** and I'd be embarrassed to say I worked for Nexus if someone asked me at a dinner party or something.

I just hope Nexus themselves get loads of flak, they're f***ing pathetic.

I did for 30 years, am I embarrassed to say I did, certainly not. Many are here are actually astonished that the drivers are being offered so much, to which I have tried to give a bit more insight into why. You also have to remember that Nexus is a public operated company and as such has strict budgets set. It also is an organisation which does not operate at a profit either. The conditions, which WERE accepted by the drivers for a significant rise, was from when the old inspectors and drivers were merged about 15 year ago.

Nexus want more flexibility with the working hours to combat the shortage of drivers (another thing the are slammed for). Nexus has made an offer based on financial restrictions (a north east super wage according to many on here and within the north east), to try and substantiate this with the councils, who are the ones who set these financial restrictions, they have attempted to amend the working hours to ensure that there are savings made in the number of trains being cancelled/delayed, which results in high costs. The drivers have knocked this back, so good luck to them as I have many friends who are affected. The other way to give this pay increase is to have job losses in other areas of the company and a cut back on maintenance/repairs, which then occurs more flack and costs. Nexus can only go by their financial restrictions with it being a public company, so I certainly disagree with this total blame on Nexus as it certainly isn't, you need to look at the Council funding also throughout the last 40 year.

The drivers are always going to choose the busiest times to get the maximum effect and keep the pressure on.

£52k would make them among the highest average salaries in the UK.  For a metro driver.  That's a higher average salary than a doctor ffs.  Even £37k puts them on the upper end of the scale for a job which isn't particularly skilled or requiring advanced qualifications or extended study.

Yeap, I'm an experienced it developer and I wouldn't mind that in the north east.

The drivers are just trying to get the same wages as other drivers in different areas of the country. Should other work areas be paid more, without a doubt yes. It is quite a skilled job mind as there is way more involved than just driving a train, which is not as straight forward either as you seem to think.

I dont get the same wages as other project managers in other parts of the country? There has always been a pay gap between different regions with the north east losing out? Why should metro drivers be any different?
Metro drivers might not get a lot compared to mainline train operators, however there is other things which balance it out.
First off all they aren’t on a mainline train. They are running trains on a loop with trains on average 10 minutes apart from each other. Not on a national line where they have to be in a certain place by the minute or Althea whole system comes backed up.
They don’t have to deal with the same levels of suicides etc as mainline trains drivers do.
They get to go home at night. A lot of train drivers on the mainline networks don’t get to do that each night.

£47k is a lot of money for the amount of work they do (they are limited to how many hours they can do), and for the region in which they live in.
Yeah ok so they are being asked to be available for more weekends, however look at retail workers, hospital staff etc who all have to do that and work more hours in general. These people get less of a choice of picking and choosing when they work, and since the Metro drivers are largely driving these people to and from work, there must be some understanding at how these people are p*ssed off at the disruption they are causing for them, and the reasons why.
I do think people should stand up for workers rights etc, but this isn’t a case of jobs going, or a proposed severly diminished working conditions. This is £47k for working a few weekends and banks holidays.
Give me £47k, I’ll have the trains running on Christmas Day.

Utter tosh:

1. They actually have to operate between more signals, track circuits and points during their shift than mainline trains.
2. They do run on a mainline within Network Rail infrastructure, which means operating between Northern Trains, Grand Central, Freight trains etc.
3, If they do not arrive at South Gosforth and Pelaw at the right time then there is automatically a back up of trains. Between Pelaw and South Gosforth the average frequency of trains is on average 4 minutes during peak periods and 7.5 minutes during non-peak hours. There is far more likelihood of Metro trains being backed up.
4. The average Metro driver is statistically more likely to encounter a suicide than any mainline operator.
5. Mainline operators do not have the abuse that Metro drivers have from passengers.
6. They might go home at night, but then again mainline drivers are put up at hotels and are then (after completing their return journey home the next day) given a rest day within their roster. Metro drivers can work up to 10 days in a row within their roster.
7. They are being asked to work more hours overtime not just weekends as you state.
8. The Metro drivers frequently work over 11 plus hours in a shift, not many mainline TOCs do and if they do not as frequently..

If you're going to compare and criticise get your facts right first.
They are only allowed to work 11 hours a shift on a certain amount of shifts a week (2).
They are not allowed to work 10 days in a row, it’s against the working time directive. If they are working 10 days in a row then they and Nexus are breaking the law.
That's wrong.

It is wrong

Offline Stifleaay

  • Heavy scarer of dogs
  • General Member
  • Come here you ginger bitch.
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1195 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 11:08:40 PM »
And as I've stated before practically all local operators are recruiting at the minute so one of them would be bound to be overjoyed to have you Stiffles.
I love how anytime I disagree with people there is always sarcastic comments like this aimed at me.
I’ve worked hard, trained hard to where I have got so far.
I admit I need experience, but I’m working towards something. I hate how everytime I disagree, I always get things thrown back in my face like this.
Its not sarcastic. You thinks it's easy and well paid, f***ing go for it kidda.
No job is as easy as they make out. All I said was that under the working conditions described, plenty of people work in those conditions for less. As it stands, I would work for the Metro for that money, and have applied in the past.

Offline midds

  • Administrator
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1196 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 11:09:44 PM »
I think transporting hundreds of people increases the pressure massively like. Responsibility for making sure people get to and from their journey for 11 hours off the bounce must be tough. If I have a bad day at work and make a few mistakes at least I know no-one dies. Can't be the same for them, it's not a pressure I'd want.
Same can be said for any driving job, and various other jobs.

Absolutely :thup:
Which other driving jobs ferry about hundreds at a time, cant avoid collisions and can take up to half a mile to stop ?

I never mentioned being on rails and stopping distances!  :lol:

I was merely staring driving hundreds of people around all day must create huge pressure and I personally couldn't cope with it. Trying to pass the job off as being fairly simple and straightforward is ridiculous.

Offline godzilla

  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1197 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 11:10:36 PM »
And as I've stated before practically all local operators are recruiting at the minute so one of them would be bound to be overjoyed to have you Stiffles.
I love how anytime I disagree with people there is always sarcastic comments like this aimed at me.
I’ve worked hard, trained hard to where I have got so far.
I admit I need experience, but I’m working towards something. I hate how everytime I disagree, I always get things thrown back in my face like this.

When you try and put an argument whilst quoting things which are totally incorrect, then you leave yourself wide open.

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1198 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 11:12:17 PM »
I think transporting hundreds of people increases the pressure massively like. Responsibility for making sure people get to and from their journey for 11 hours off the bounce must be tough. If I have a bad day at work and make a few mistakes at least I know no-one dies. Can't be the same for them, it's not a pressure I'd want.
Same can be said for any driving job, and various other jobs.

Absolutely :thup:
Which other driving jobs ferry about hundreds at a time, cant avoid collisions and can take up to half a mile to stop ?

I never mentioned being on rails and stopping distances!  :lol:

I was merely staring driving hundreds of people around all day must create huge pressure and I personally couldn't cope with it. Trying to pass the job off as being fairly simple and straightforward is ridiculous.
So that means all driving jobs arent the same. Youd think people that have done both would know the difference. I know people that have ans guess what ?
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline midds

  • Administrator
Re: The Metro - Upgrades, issues, hundreds of billions
« Reply #1199 on: Monday 23 December 2019, 11:24:09 PM »
I think transporting hundreds of people increases the pressure massively like. Responsibility for making sure people get to and from their journey for 11 hours off the bounce must be tough. If I have a bad day at work and make a few mistakes at least I know no-one dies. Can't be the same for them, it's not a pressure I'd want.
Same can be said for any driving job, and various other jobs.

Absolutely :thup:
Which other driving jobs ferry about hundreds at a time, cant avoid collisions and can take up to half a mile to stop ?

I never mentioned being on rails and stopping distances!  :lol:

I was merely staring driving hundreds of people around all day must create huge pressure and I personally couldn't cope with it. Trying to pass the job off as being fairly simple and straightforward is ridiculous.
So that means all driving jobs arent the same. Youd think people that have done both would know the difference. I know people that have ans guess what ?

Obviously they're not the same but driving a busy double decker and driving a train both mean transporting lots of people, there are similarities. Driving a small taxi is different again, long distance lorry driver is different to both. Wouldn't particularly want to do any of them