Author Topic: Gaza & Israel  (Read 94860 times)

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Offline DJ_NUFC

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 30 December 2008, 08:50:22 pm »
Robert Fisk is the man, and here's his tuppence about the latest goings-on:

Robert Fisk: Leaders lie, civilians die, and lessons of history are ignored

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-leaders-lie-civilians-die-and-lessons-of-history-are-ignored-1215045.html

Monday, 29 December 2008

We've got so used to the carnage of the Middle East that we don't care any more – providing we don't offend the Israelis. It's not clear how many of the Gaza dead are civilians, but the response of the Bush administration, not to mention the pusillanimous reaction of Gordon Brown, reaffirm for Arabs what they have known for decades: however they struggle against their antagonists, the West will take Israel's side. As usual, the bloodbath was the fault of the Arabs – who, as we all know, only understand force.


Ever since 1948, we've been hearing this balderdash from the Israelis – just as Arab nationalists and then Arab Islamists have been peddling their own lies: that the Zionist "death wagon" will be overthrown, that all Jerusalem will be "liberated". And always Mr Bush Snr or Mr Clinton or Mr Bush Jnr or Mr Blair or Mr Brown have called upon both sides to exercise "restraint" – as if the Palestinians and the Israelis both have F-18s and Merkava tanks and field artillery. Hamas's home-made rockets have killed just 20 Israelis in eight years, but a day-long blitz by Israeli aircraft that kills almost 300 Palestinians is just par for the course.

The blood-splattering has its own routine. Yes, Hamas provoked Israel's anger, just as Israel provoked Hamas's anger, which was provoked by Israel, which was provoked by Hamas, which ... See what I mean? Hamas fires rockets at Israel, Israel bombs Hamas, Hamas fires more rockets and Israel bombs again and ... Got it? And we demand security for Israel – rightly – but overlook this massive and utterly disproportionate slaughter by Israel. It was Madeleine Albright who once said that Israel was "under siege" – as if Palestinian tanks were in the streets of Tel Aviv.

By last night, the exchange rate stood at 296 Palestinians dead for one dead Israeli. Back in 2006, it was 10 Lebanese dead for one Israeli dead. This weekend was the most inflationary exchange rate in a single day since – the 1973 Middle East War? The 1967 Six Day War? The 1956 Suez War? The 1948 Independence/Nakba War? It's obscene, a gruesome game – which Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, unconsciously admitted when he spoke this weekend to Fox TV. "Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game," Barak said.

Exactly. Only the "rules" of the game don't change. This is a further slippage on the Arab-Israeli exchanges, a percentage slide more awesome than Wall Street's crashing shares, though of not much interest in the US which – let us remember – made the F-18s and the Hellfire missiles which the Bush administration pleads with Israel to use sparingly.

Quite a lot of the dead this weekend appear to have been Hamas members, but what is it supposed to solve? Is Hamas going to say: "Wow, this blitz is awesome – we'd better recognise the state of Israel, fall in line with the Palestinian Authority, lay down our weapons and pray we are taken prisoner and locked up indefinitely and support a new American 'peace process' in the Middle East!" Is that what the Israelis and the Americans and Gordon Brown think Hamas is going to do?

Yes, let's remember Hamas's cynicism, the cynicism of all armed Islamist groups. Their need for Muslim martyrs is as crucial to them as Israel's need to create them. The lesson Israel thinks it is teaching – come to heel or we will crush you – is not the lesson Hamas is learning. Hamas needs violence to emphasise the oppression of the Palestinians – and relies on Israel to provide it. A few rockets into Israel and Israel obliges.

Not a whimper from Tony Blair, the peace envoy to the Middle East who's never been to Gaza in his current incarnation. Not a bloody word.

We hear the usual Israeli line. General Yaakov Amidror, the former head of the Israeli army's "research and assessment division" announced that "no country in the world would allow its citizens to be made the target of rocket attacks without taking vigorous steps to defend them". Quite so. But when the IRA were firing mortars over the border into Northern Ireland, when their guerrillas were crossing from the Republic to attack police stations and Protestants, did Britain unleash the RAF on the Irish Republic? Did the RAF bomb churches and tankers and police stations and zap 300 civilians to teach the Irish a lesson? No, it did not. Because the world would have seen it as criminal behaviour. We didn't want to lower ourselves to the IRA's level.

Yes, Israel deserves security. But these bloodbaths will not bring it. Not since 1948 have air raids protected Israel. Israel has bombed Lebanon thousands of times since 1975 and not one has eliminated "terrorism". So what was the reaction last night? The Israelis threaten ground attacks. Hamas waits for another battle. Our Western politicians crouch in their funk holes. And somewhere to the east – in a cave? a basement? on a mountainside? – a well-known man in a turban smiles.


Offline Adam^

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 30 December 2008, 10:39:47 pm »
Brilliant read, spot on. Israel isn't really achieving anything here, other than making the Gaza ghetto even worse. I wonder if they will pay to rebuild the houses, police stations and sports centres they have destroyed. Will they bollocks.

Offline HTT

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday 31 December 2008, 12:11:36 am »
Yea Hamas isn't blameless in this, and it shouldn't really be attacking Israel. But if I lived somewhere where everything coming in was controlled by some power mad idiots over a wall I would fire some rockets.

Thing that really pisses me off, is that they have just killed 200+ people and most of the world leaders are telling Hamas to stop its attacks. They kicked off at russia for attacking Georgia, yet killing 200 innocent (yes some of them would be Hamas targets, militants etc), and no one dares to question Israel. One of my friends from school spent some time in the west bank, last year any time he questioned Israel's policies he was called Anti Semitic.

I suppose if they go in on the ground maybe the UN will actually do its job and send in a peace force, though there is more chance of us winning the Champions League before that happens.

That's the crux of the argument. It's easy to wag your finger at Hamas, God knows I have and still do, but taking a step back and putting myself in their shoes i'd probably support that type of action.

Some of the s**** the Palestinians have to undergo on a daily basis is sickening. They're attacked, they have their houses torn down, they have curfews imposed on a whim, they have their movement restricted, they're humiliated by the occupying Israeli forces and to top it all off they had a f***ing wall built to fence them in. Even worse considering that they try to tell the world that Palestine is ran by Hamas which it patently isn't.

If Iran or Syria were doing what Israel were doing the US would've marched in, stuck a flag in the ground and been blowjobbed to death by the world media but that'll never happen with Israel. An ally in the Middle East is worth it's weight in gold hence the reason Israel will continue to get away with maiming and killing innocent civilians. The situation looks worrying similar to one which occured in Europe in the 30's and 40's. Sadly ironic.

There is a fantastic documentary out there by John Pilger called Palestine is Still the Issue (It's available on Google Video/YouTube etc.) which highlights the situation and the effect it has on civilians on either side of the conflict. When it first came out a couple of years back Christian and Jewish pressure groups bombarded and threatened Pilger and ITV because it was apparently biased against Israel. It had to go up infront of the ITC for them to judge and they ruled it was a fair and accurate portrayl of the situation which hadn't been sensationalised in any way, which makes it so much more shocking. I implore you all to watch it. Here's a link to the news story about it - http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/jan/13/middleeastthemedia.television

Couldn't agree more, and you've just reminded me of some  DVDs by Pilger which I own but haven't watched yet, think I'll give them a watch sometime this week.
Wee Hughie - the greatest centre-forward Newcastle United ever had

Offline Newcastle Fan

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #28 on: Friday 2 January 2009, 10:52:31 am »
Was just watching some pictures of some casualties in Gaza, bloody awfull, a large number of them are just kids :(

Offline Dave

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #29 on: Friday 2 January 2009, 11:14:33 am »
I don't claim to know anything about the politics or anything else behind this situation but for as long as I can remember they've just been attacking each other in 'retaliation' for previous attacks.

Until one or both sides has the bollocks to make a stand for peace there's no hope for the f***ing idiots.

Edd

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #30 on: Friday 2 January 2009, 11:23:39 am »
Considering where we have troops ATM and the number of civilians "we" have killed, I'm sure a lot of the comments in here could just as easily be aimed at us. </Devils Advocate>

Offline Newcastle Fan

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 05:09:51 pm »
430 dead and rising.

sicko2ndbest

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 06:51:49 pm »
Ground offensive under way

Offline Adam^

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 07:59:38 pm »
Stupid f***ing Israeli b******. Maybe if they were able to talk and negotiate, and learn that they can't keep killing people to get their way. They hold all the cards, all the land, all the water etc, so if they want peace they have to give some of it back to the Palestinians. I don't like people being killed but I have a feeling this will be like when Israel went in to Lebanon.

Offline Adam^

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 08:12:06 pm »
Israeli defence minister on bbc, saying they are peace seekers. If they wanted peace that badly, they would of stopped the blockade of gaza, and do everything to bring peace to the region. I duno what they hope to achieve, if they do oust hamas, then thats regime change of a democratically elected govt. If they don't soon as they pull out they will fire more rockets.

Only way to stop it is to stop the blockade, get the UN in to keep the peace, and give the land etc back to the Palestinians. If they continue to fire rockets, then fine you gave them their rights back and they attack you.

Offline Pip

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 08:21:13 pm »
A f***ing tragedy. Just look at the death count. Even when it approached 300, I read that about half were members of Hamas, meaning the other half were simply civilians - women and children included. 150:3, that's 50 innocent Palestinian for every innocent Israeli. And they say that it is an 'appropriate' response.

Bush then comes out today with the same unchanged rhetoric saying that Hamas is the problem. What a load of f***ing bullshit.

We've had numerous threads like these in the past few years when Israel decides to invade another country while the whole world stands and watch. What can you do? How much anger can you express on an internet message board? None of the leaders in the world can be trusted to stand up for what is right and what is just.

Offline Jaypee

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #36 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 08:26:43 pm »
I don't think people recognise what an anti-peace organisation Hamas really is. I'm not supporting killings of civialians, but that is unfortunately a part of Hamas' tactics. They have even said themselves that they've created a shield of women and children.

Offline Pip

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #37 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 08:33:16 pm »
Of course that's true, and yes, it is a stated mission of theirs to destroy Israel but any group that is created out of hate and anger (justified, imo) will have a hateful aim. They have become more political and thus their view will be more moderate as time goes by.

The worst thing is, the Israeli population feels a two-state solution with Jerusalem divided is the best way to solve the conflict and the Palestinian populace agrees yet none of the leaders can actually come to an agreement based on this.

Offline madras

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #38 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 09:27:35 pm »
Of course that's true, and yes, it is a stated mission of theirs to destroy Israel but any group that is created out of hate and anger (justified, imo) will have a hateful aim. They have become more political and thus their view will be more moderate as time goes by.

The worst thing is, the Israeli population feels a two-state solution with Jerusalem divided is the best way to solve the conflict and the Palestinian populace agrees yet none of the leaders can actually come to an agreement based on this.
it was a stated aim of the lehi  to create a zionist state for jews in palestine. maybe hamas have looked at history and taken a leaf from that manual.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline Newcastle Fan

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #39 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 10:27:35 pm »
A f***ing tragedy. Just look at the death count. Even when it approached 300, I read that about half were members of Hamas, meaning the other half were simply civilians - women and children included. 150:3, that's 50 innocent Palestinian for every innocent Israeli. And they say that it is an 'appropriate' response.

Bush then comes out today with the same unchanged rhetoric saying that Hamas is the problem. What a load of f***ing bullshit.

We've had numerous threads like these in the past few years when Israel decides to invade another country while the whole world stands and watch. What can you do? How much anger can you express on an internet message board? None of the leaders in the world can be trusted to stand up for what is right and what is just.

I seriously doubt that half of them were Hamas memebers.

The one story that does come to mind is, they targted the house of a Hamas memeber, boomed the f*** out of it, killed him and his whole family, wife, kids, everyone.

Offline Adam^

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #40 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:02:09 pm »
Compare the size of the rockets to the size of the bombs that are being dropped.




The German

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #41 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:38:11 pm »
I support Isreals behaviour tbh. Somebody must someday end this endless war!

Offline pedro111

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #42 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:39:04 pm »
You know, the whole middle east problem just boggles my mind tbh.

Offline madras

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #43 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:40:09 pm »
I support Isreals behaviour tbh. Somebody must someday end this endless war!
if you think the israeli behaviour will end it you are at best naive.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

The German

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #44 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:47:09 pm »
I support Isreals behaviour tbh. Somebody must someday end this endless war!
if you think the israeli behaviour will end it you are at best naive.

this war must somehow anywhere end. how should it end in your opinion. the isreal want that land. the terrorists want their land. so what to do?

Offline madras

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #45 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:49:56 pm »
I support Isreals behaviour tbh. Somebody must someday end this endless war!
if you think the israeli behaviour will end it you are at best naive.

this war must somehow anywhere end. how should it end in your opinion. the isreal want that land. the terrorists want their land. so what to do?
the way a near peace came about in northern ireland.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

The German

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #46 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:52:57 pm »
I support Isreals behaviour tbh. Somebody must someday end this endless war!
if you think the israeli behaviour will end it you are at best naive.

this war must somehow anywhere end. how should it end in your opinion. the isreal want that land. the terrorists want their land. so what to do?
the way a near peace came about in northern ireland.

the problem this time: we talk about a country which is hated by nearly the whole world of which 3/4 of all countrys ironically  have to defend it. the other 1/4= iran, iraq, syria, whatever (don't know the english names for) will get into this war if isreal really going to shot all the people is gaza dead. then we have a much bigger problem then in northern ireland

*edit: i mean 3/4 of all countrys who matter in this world

Offline Newcastle Fan

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #47 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:53:06 pm »
I support Isreals behaviour tbh. Somebody must someday end this endless war!
if you think the israeli behaviour will end it you are at best naive.

this war must somehow anywhere end. how should it end in your opinion. the isreal want that land. the terrorists want their land. so what to do?

You've got to be f***ing kidding me..Wind up surley.

The German

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #48 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:54:02 pm »
I support Isreals behaviour tbh. Somebody must someday end this endless war!
if you think the israeli behaviour will end it you are at best naive.

this war must somehow anywhere end. how should it end in your opinion. the isreal want that land. the terrorists want their land. so what to do?

You've got to be f***ing kidding me..Wind up surley.

I just don't know the english word for. sorry.

Offline madras

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Re: Gaza....(the place, not the bloke)
« Reply #49 on: Saturday 3 January 2009, 11:54:30 pm »
I support Isreals behaviour tbh. Somebody must someday end this endless war!
if you think the israeli behaviour will end it you are at best naive.

this war must somehow anywhere end. how should it end in your opinion. the isreal want that land. the terrorists want their land. so what to do?
the way a near peace came about in northern ireland.

the problem this time: we talk about a country which is hated by nearly the whole world of which 3/4 of all countrys ironically  have to defend it. the other 1/4= iran, iraq, syria, whatever (don't know the english names for) will get into this war if isreal really going to shot all the people is gaza dead. then we have a much bigger problem then in northern ireland

*edit: i mean 3/4 of all countrys who matter in this world
quite possibly. but don't kid yourself that'll be the end of it.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.