Author Topic: UK Politics: The Tory Years 2.0  (Read 451891 times)

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Offline sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics: The Tory Years 2.0
« Reply #18100 on: Yesterday at 12:00:30 am »
Can we get back to destroying neo-liberalism, please?




Online loki679

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics: The Tory Years 2.0
« Reply #18101 on: Yesterday at 01:57:29 am »
Think that Climate change is an extremely complex problem that will take more than just reducing carbon dioxide emitions to solve?

Could you explain in what way it's more complex and what solutions other than reducing CO2 emissions you would suggest?

We live in an ever changing climate.  We are currently in an interglacial period, with temperatures continuing to rise since the end of the last ice age.
We think that greenhouse gasses are probably contributing to the wider rise in temperatures caused by such things as orbital fluctuations and changes to the way the earth spins on its axis.
Many people also think that rising temperatures will cause more ice to melt, causing see levels to rise.

This combination of the fact that carbon dioxide might be contributing to something that might cause something to happen that might cause sea levels to rise that will impact people in some way.

Might-might-might and might.

It's not as simple as CO2 = people die.  We know that our climate has always been changing.  Now what we wish to do is to try and stop that change by changing one factor i.e. CO2.


What you've said here has no basis in science.  'Orbital fluctuations' and changes to the spin of the earth are nonsense.  We don't think that greenhouse gases are probably having an effect on the climate, it's settled science.  Greenhouse gases are having an effect on the climate and man made greenhouse gas emissions are the major driving force behind climate change.  It's simple ignorance to suggest otherwise at this point.

Although i've been through this many times and I know that, in general, people who hold your opinion will not ever change their minds no matter how much evidence is presented, here's some information from NASA:





'Orbital fluctuations' and 'Changes to the spin of the earth':




Some expert opinions on the matter:

AMERICAN SCIENTIFIC SOCIETIES
Statement on Climate Change from 18 Scientific Associations


"Observations throughout the world make it clear that climate change is occurring, and rigorous scientific research demonstrates that the greenhouse gases emitted by human activities are the primary driver." (2009)

American Association for the Advancement of Science
"The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a growing threat to society." (2006)
 
American Chemical Society
"Comprehensive scientific assessments of our current and potential future climates clearly indicate that climate change is real, largely attributable to emissions from human activities, and potentially a very serious problem." (2004)
   
American Geophysical Union
"Human‐induced climate change requires urgent action. Humanity is the major influence on the global climate change observed over the past 50 years. Rapid societal responses can significantly lessen negative outcomes." (Adopted 2003, revised and reaffirmed 2007, 2012, 2013)
   
American Medical Association
"Our AMA ... supports the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s fourth assessment report and concurs with the scientific consensus that the Earth is undergoing adverse global climate change and that anthropogenic contributions are significant." (2013)
   
American Meteorological Society

"It is clear from extensive scientific evidence that the dominant cause of the rapid change in climate of the past half century is human-induced increases in the amount of atmospheric greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide (CO2), chlorofluorocarbons, methane, and nitrous oxide." (2012)
   
American Physical Society

"The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now." (2007)
   
The Geological Society of America
"The Geological Society of America (GSA) concurs with assessments by the National Academies of Science (2005), the National Research Council (2006), and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC, 2007) that global climate has warmed and that human activities (mainly greenhouse‐gas emissions) account for most of the warming since the middle 1900s." (2006; revised 2010)

SCIENCE ACADEMIES
International Academies: Joint Statement


"Climate change is real. There will always be uncertainty in understanding a system as complex as the world’s climate. However there is now strong evidence that significant global warming is occurring. The evidence comes from direct measurements of rising surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures and from phenomena such as increases in average global sea levels, retreating glaciers, and changes to many physical and biological systems. It is likely that most of the warming in recent decades can be attributed to human activities (IPCC 2001)." (2005, 11 international science academies)

   
U.S. National Academy of Sciences
"The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify taking steps to reduce the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere." (2005)

U.S. Global Change Research Program
"The global warming of the past 50 years is due primarily to human-induced increases in heat-trapping gases. Human 'fingerprints' also have been identified in many other aspects of the climate system, including changes in ocean heat content, precipitation, atmospheric moisture, and Arctic sea ice." (2009, 13 U.S. government departments and agencies)

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
“Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, and since the 1950s, many of the observed changes are unprecedented over decades to millennia. The atmosphere and ocean have warmed, the amounts of snow and ice have diminished, and sea level has risen.”

“Human influence on the climate system is clear, and recent anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases are the highest in history. Recent climate changes have had widespread impacts on human and natural systems.”


I can't tell you what to think but if, in the face of real evidence and overwhelming concensus throughout the entire global scientific community, you still choose to believe the erroneous statements with which you began your post then you're choosing to live in ignorance.

As far as sea levels go, the rate of global sea level rise is increasing and is now up to about an inch per decade.  Since records began in 1880 we've seen total sea level rise of about 8 inches, 3 of those inches have come since 1993.  So 5 inches in 113 years followed by 3 inches in 25 years coinciding with rising global temperatures caused by human greenhouse gas emissions.  This is not 'hugely disputed' or in any way in doubt within the scientific community.  Simple physics dictates that as liquid water gets warmer it expands, make the oceans warmer, they get bigger.  That accounts for around 50% of the rise since 1993, the rest comes from ice melt.

The economic arguments against taking action on greenhouse gases aren't particularly logical in the long term, it will cost far more, kill many people and displace many millions more to do nothing and try to 'mitigate' the problem. 

Why do we have to 'destroy our economy' to tackle greenhouse gases?  Why do we have to 'reverse development' to tackle greenhouse gases?  We don't and nobody has suggested that, it's a strawman.  Intelligent countries are investing in renewable sources of power, developing new technologies to replace the old, researching new agricultural practices, bringing new ways of doing things to the table.  Through these initiatives new economies are being created providing clean jobs for people, providing new research and educational opportunities, that's what we should be doing.

This just about sums it up for me:

Comfy chairs, beer, and doom. Humanity's future is an early 90s LAN party.

Offline OpenC

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics: The Tory Years 2.0
« Reply #18102 on: Yesterday at 06:49:26 am »
There must be a place for climate change discussion that's not the politics thread like

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics: The Tory Years 2.0
« Reply #18103 on: Yesterday at 07:03:46 am »
There must be a place for climate change discussion that's not the politics thread like
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Online loki679

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics: The Tory Years 2.0
« Reply #18104 on: Yesterday at 08:54:02 am »
Message received :lol:
Comfy chairs, beer, and doom. Humanity's future is an early 90s LAN party.

Offline Incognito

  • General Member
  • Get your hands off me you freak
Re: UK Politics: The Tory Years 2.0
« Reply #18105 on: Yesterday at 11:58:30 am »
Do you do too much cocaine by any chance?

Pot NOODLES would be my guess.
RIP gejon/cajun/ Jon Lockwood.

Proud to have made your acquaintance Sir.

Offline kingkerouac

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics: The Tory Years 2.0
« Reply #18106 on: Yesterday at 01:23:38 pm »
The strength of the 'left' imo, was never in the political parties but with the workers themselves, in their fighting for better conditions. What we have seen over the past 30 odd years is the systematic destruction of that strength via the establishment of neo-liberalism.

Considering we have had both conservative and labour governments in power during that time, both promulgating the neo-liberal agenda, i'm not surprised that a sizable amount of people who would no doubt fair better under a labour government are somewhat sceptical.

Yeah, can't argue too much with that.  And the most obvious neoliberal institution of them all is currently the cause of much unrest and debate, both under fire and being staunchly defended by people from both sides of the divide.

Completely agree with both of those posts.  The political elitism we've seen over the last three decades has completely failed to act in the wishes of the people.  We've seen the needs of the many crushed in order to deliver the agenda of the few.  Wage depression, inequality and the squandering of public money on s**** that we don't need, whilst people can't get a start in life.

The last four decades. All of this pushing of Neo-liberalism started with the Tory party, scraping into power in April 1979.
The rot began then....

Offline sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics: The Tory Years 2.0
« Reply #18107 on: Yesterday at 01:26:25 pm »
The strength of the 'left' imo, was never in the political parties but with the workers themselves, in their fighting for better conditions. What we have seen over the past 30 odd years is the systematic destruction of that strength via the establishment of neo-liberalism.

Considering we have had both conservative and labour governments in power during that time, both promulgating the neo-liberal agenda, i'm not surprised that a sizable amount of people who would no doubt fair better under a labour government are somewhat sceptical.

Yeah, can't argue too much with that.  And the most obvious neoliberal institution of them all is currently the cause of much unrest and debate, both under fire and being staunchly defended by people from both sides of the divide.

Completely agree with both of those posts.  The political elitism we've seen over the last three decades has completely failed to act in the wishes of the people.  We've seen the needs of the many crushed in order to deliver the agenda of the few.  Wage depression, inequality and the squandering of public money on s**** that we don't need, whilst people can't get a start in life.

The last four decades. All of this pushing of Neo-liberalism started with the Tory party, scraping into power in April 1979.
The rot began then....

Started before then, Thatcher and Reagan hatched a plan to take it forward.