Author Topic: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?  (Read 120191 times)

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Offline Parky

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #75 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 07:06:12 PM »
Maybe the thread title should have been: Is Israel the centre of evil? :icon_joker:

Goashem

  • Guest
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #76 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 07:48:59 PM »
alright i think this is going to be a long post...
Quote
that you believe Israel are absolutely blameless in this whole matter
no i dont but i did present a very one sided arguement to balance out the claim that israels birth is responsible for what is wrong in the world. i personally believe that the palestinians are more at fault of their own situation, theyve followed the wrong people that dug them into this whole. and i do believe that israel has been more accepting of coexisting with palestinians then the other way around.
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you deny the Israeli army's continuous oppression of Palestinian people, the non-stop destruction and shelling of their homes, the killing of women and children and the constant racism they have to suffer as a non-event.
this statement is just as one sided as my arguements.
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I suppose you're in favour of the wall being constructed, are you

as long as its on israels land and not palestinians they have a right to do whatever. especially if it means stopping suicide bombers.
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They simply couldn't give a s*** what the world thinks
and why do you think that is? when has the world ever came to the aid of the israelis? when was there ever pressure on the palestinians to stop suicide bombings? did anyone ever suggested of putting arafat to trial for all the crimes against humanity he has commited? the EU has been quite one sided against israel and if israel would comply with the EU thered be much more dead israelis.
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How about Israel's Nuclear capabilities, I dare say this is OK too

its more ok for israel to have nuclear capabilities than iran simply because israel never went on the offensive against its neighbors and never called for the elimination of iran and never funded terror attacks in the country.
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Well, how bloody honourable of them
very honourable actually. if giving back the land to the people who attacked you in order to eliminate your existence isnt a proof of willingness to coexist in peace then i dont know what is.
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Try telling that to the Arab half of Jerusalem, which increasingly looks like it will never be in the hands of the Palestinians
actually sharon has been pushing for a palestinian state during his term, which included transfer of half of jerusalem to the palestinians. the only problem is that sharon is also trying to connect maale adumim with the israeli part of jerusalem which will be a land grab. this very arrogant move by the israeli side will probably be the biggest gridlock in negotiations.
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Let sface it - it will never stop untill all the Israelis are re located to the USA
and heres another lovely balanced comment.
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Israel wouldn't have the army they have, if it wasn't for the US.  Israel wouldn't have the LAND they have if it wasn't for the US
and is that a bad thing? israel wouldnt exist if they werent backed by the US and there would be another lovely massacre of jews in the area if israel couldnt defend itself.

Offline indi

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #77 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 07:55:42 PM »
Right, I've read the thread now and it's not as controversial as I had expected.

Something, I'd like to add:

The most powerful weapon in the Israeli arsenal,is not "the bomb", it is the label of anti-semitism.

They know this, which is why they use it so often, much more often than even those armoured bulldozers they're so fond of.

The fear of being labelled as an anti-semite, is so great in the western world, that Israel just has to mention it and a lot of people, who would normally object, to similar actions by other countries, fall silent. This thread provides some prime examples of people's fear of being labelled anti-semitic, look at how cautious we're all being, putting disclaimers, skirting around issues, going out of our way to be fair and even handed.

Now look at the "Magic of Jesus" thread:

http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php/topic,11453.0.html

and see how different it is, people are quite happy to make jokes and take the p*ss, it's all pretty lighthearted and friendly even!! I wonder why? Well no, I don't actually, I know why, it's because people aren't afraid of being anti-Christian, or even anti-Muslim, but they are seriously afraid of being anti-semitic. I'm not religious, by the way, most of you will already know that.

The thing you have to remember is that Israel, is not, and does not represent, the Jewish faith. In the same way that Christian or Muslim countries, do not represent Christianity or Islam.

Therefore, to criticise Israel, is in no way, anti-semitic.

Yes, anti-semites are likely to criticise Israel, but it is not their criticism of Israel that makes them anti-semitic, it is their hatred of Jews, which is not the same thing. Even a hatred of the Israeli government is not anti-semitic.

Yet, the Israeli government's stock response, to any criticism it receives, is to label it's accusers as anti-semitic and usually members of a world-wide anti-semitic plot, against the Jewish people!! This, at first sight, appears rather ironic, considering the accusation's similarity to the anti-semitic myths to which the Jews have been subjected throughout history. However, it is not ironic at all, it is a quite deliberate attempt, by the Israeli government, to use the same underhand tactics that have been used against Judaism for centuries, for their own ends.

This, for me, highlights the issue that is most distasteful about Israel, the sheer hypocracy of it all!!

All countries have dark and dirty histories, most have pretty dark and dirty presents, as well, including Britain, the US, Europe and all the other, self appointed, "Moral Guardians", of the world.

However, Israel stands alone, given the fact that the majority of it's population have direct experience, either first hand, or through immediate relatives, of what it's like to be on the wrong end, of state sponsored persecution. You'd think, well I would anyway, that of all the people on the Earth, Jewish people, would know that it's wrong, for a state to consistantly abuse people's human rights, based upon, the colour of their skin, their race, or their religion.

Yet that's exactly what the Israeli government are doing, every day, in the West Bank and Gaza.

The Israeli government would, and do, say, "But we're being attacked, by Palestinians", yes you are, nobody is denying that, but that doesn't justify the indiscriminate nature of your response. It is this indiscriminate killing and repression of the Palestinian civilians that is the abuse of Human rights.

Yes, groups like Hezbollah and Hamas don't exactly discriminate between killing civilians and military personel, but the difference is, the Israeli government has the use of one of the most highly skilled and best equiped armies in the world, the IDF, the Palastinians have a buch of blokes, with scarves round their heads, waving antique RPGs. What I'm saying is, Israel has the capability to kill almost any individual, on the face of the planet, wherever and whenever they choose (As has been proven on a number of occasions), and the Palestinians don't.

This in no way excuses the indiscriminate killing of civilians, by groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah, but it does explain it. Desperate people, employ desperate measures.

Israel's government has the option of discriminating as to who it chooses to kill, however it, more often than not, simply chooses not to do so.

Let's face it, Israel and the Palestinian groups (Hezbollah, Hamas, etc) are at war, the Israelis know this and so do the Palestinians. If you accept that, then the question stops being about, whether or not they should be fighting each other, and becomes about, how they fight each other.

This is a pretty clear cut situation, for me at least.

The Palestinians, given their resources and international political power, have little choice, but to fight dirty. The Israeli government, on the other hand, given it's resources and political clout, has every option available, it just chooses to fight dirty.

The fact that the Israeli government, claims to occupy the moral highground, whilst in reality, it fights in the gutter, just adds to the overwhelming hypocracy of their position.

The argument, often put forward in an attempt to justify the Israeli government's actions, is that, "Israel needs to be strong, so that it doesn't happen again", where "it" is the Holocaust. Well "it", to a certain extent, is happening again, only this time, it's Israel that's doing it to the Palestinians. Right here comes my own disclaimer:

Although, I am comparing the Israeli persecution of the Palestinians, to the Holocaust, I am in no way saying they are the same thing!! Rather, I am comparing them, in the same way that you might compare, someone beating someone else up, to someone murdering someone else, both are wrong, although one is much more wrong than the other. Hopefully, you all understand what I am saying, although somehow I doubt it.

The Holocaust, which was undeniably horrible beyond belief, should not give the Israeli government "carte blanche" to do whatever they feel like, to whoever they feel like. For them to behave as though it does, combined with their continual and deliberate mislabelling of people as anti-semitic, all adds up to a level of hypocracy that is frankly unbelievable. It is also disgraceful, as it taints the memory of what actually happened to many of the people the Israeli government claim to represent.

Offline Allmo

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #78 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 08:05:03 PM »
Right, I've read the thread now and it's not as controversial as I had expected.

Something, I'd like to add:

The most powerful weapon in the Israeli arsenal,is not "the bomb", it is the label of anti-semitism.

They know this, which is why they use it so often, much more often than even those armoured bulldozers they're so fond of.

The fear of being labelled as an anti-semite, is so great in the western world, that Israel just has to mention it and a lot of people, who would normally object, to similar actions by other countries, fall silent. This thread provides some prime examples of people's fear of being labelled anti-semitic, look at how cautious we're all being, putting disclaimers, skirting around issues, going out of our way to be fair and even handed.

Now look at the "Magic of Jesus" thread:

http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php/topic,11453.0.html

and see how different it is, people are quite happy to make jokes and take the p*ss, it's all pretty lighthearted and friendly even!! I wonder why? Well no, I don't actually, I know why, it's because people aren't afraid of being anti-Christian, or even anti-Muslim, but they are seriously afraid of being anti-semitic. I'm not religious, by the way, most of you will already know that.

The thing you have to remember is that Israel, is not, and does not represent, the Jewish faith. In the same way that Christian or Muslim countries, do not represent Christianity or Islam.

Therefore, to criticise Israel, is in no way, anti-semitic.

Yes, anti-semites are likely to criticise Israel, but it is not their criticism of Israel that makes them anti-semitic, it is their hatred of Jews, which is not the same thing. Even a hatred of the Israeli government is not anti-semitic.

Yet, the Israeli government's stock response, to any criticism it receives, is to label it's accusers as anti-semitic and usually members of a world-wide anti-semitic plot, against the Jewish people!! This, at first sight, appears rather ironic, considering the accusation's similarity to the anti-semitic myths to which the Jews have been subjected throughout history. However, it is not ironic at all, it is a quite deliberate attempt, by the Israeli government, to use the same underhand tactics that have been used against Judaism for centuries, for their own ends.

This, for me, highlights the issue that is most distasteful about Israel, the sheer hypocracy of it all!!

All countries have dark and dirty histories, most have pretty dark and dirty presents, as well, including Britain, the US, Europe and all the other, self appointed, "Moral Guardians", of the world.

However, Israel stands alone, given the fact that the majority of it's population have direct experience, either first hand, or through immediate relatives, of what it's like to be on the wrong end, of state sponsored persecution. You'd think, well I would anyway, that of all the people on the Earth, Jewish people, would know that it's wrong, for a state to consistantly abuse people's human rights, based upon, the colour of their skin, their race, or their religion.

Yet that's exactly what the Israeli government are doing, every day, in the West Bank and Gaza.

The Israeli government would, and do, say, "But we're being attacked, by Palestinians", yes you are, nobody is denying that, but that doesn't justify the indiscriminate nature of your response. It is this indiscriminate killing and repression of the Palestinian civilians that is the abuse of Human rights.

Yes, groups like Hezbollah and Hamas don't exactly discriminate between killing civilians and military personel, but the difference is, the Israeli government has the use of one of the most highly skilled and best equiped armies in the world, the IDF, the Palastinians have a buch of blokes, with scarves round their heads, waving antique RPGs. What I'm saying is, Israel has the capability to kill almost any individual, on the face of the planet, wherever and whenever they choose (As has been proven on a number of occasions), and the Palestinians don't.

This in no way excuses the indiscriminate killing of civilians, by groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah, but it does explain it. Desperate people, employ desperate measures.

Israel's government has the option of discriminating as to who it chooses to kill, however it, more often than not, simply chooses not to do so.

Let's face it, Israel and the Palestinian groups (Hezbollah, Hamas, etc) are at war, the Israelis know this and so do the Palestinians. If you accept that, then the question stops being about, whether or not they should be fighting each other, and becomes about, how they fight each other.

This is a pretty clear cut situation, for me at least.

The Palestinians, given their resources and international political power, have little choice, but to fight dirty. The Israeli government, on the other hand, given it's resources and political clout, has every option available, it just chooses to fight dirty.

The fact that the Israeli government, claims to occupy the moral highground, whilst in reality, it fights in the gutter, just adds to the overwhelming hypocracy of their position.

The argument, often put forward in an attempt to justify the Israeli government's actions, is that, "Israel needs to be strong, so that it doesn't happen again", where "it" is the Holocaust. Well "it", to a certain extent, is happening again, only this time, it's Israel that's doing it to the Palestinians. Right here comes my own disclaimer:

Although, I am comparing the Israeli persecution of the Palestinians, to the Holocaust, I am in no way saying they are the same thing!! Rather, I am comparing them, in the same way that you might compare, someone beating someone else up, to someone murdering someone else, both are wrong, although one is much more wrong than the other. Hopefully, you all understand what I am saying, although somehow I doubt it.

The Holocaust, which was undeniably horrible beyond belief, should not give the Israeli government "carte blanche" to do whatever they feel like, to whoever they feel like. For them to behave as though it does, combined with their continual and deliberate mislabelling of people as anti-semitic, all adds up to a level of hypocracy that is frankly unbelievable. It is also disgraceful, as it taints the memory of what actually happened to many of the people the Israeli government claim to represent.

What he said.

Offline johnnypd

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #79 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 08:06:25 PM »
come on, bluf, that's not fair.  if it were true, then israel would have booted out the palestinians long long ago and in no nice fashion either.  what were the camp david meetings about if not the usa trying to get both sides to compromise? 

they did!

Offline johnnypd

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #80 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 08:09:05 PM »
indigo, it is shocking how much the israeli govt plays the "anti-semitism" card on ridiculously trivial matters. at least it shocks me cos it pisses on the memory of jewish holocaust and anti-semitism victims but i suppose theyve been exploiting that for ages.

i thought this incident showed the OTT paranoia of the israeli establishment http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1183312,00.html

Offline BlufPurdi

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  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #81 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 08:35:23 PM »
Top post Indigo, very impressed.  You're right about the caution.  When Parky told me to be careful I was furiously scanning over everything I said to make sure I hadn't been, as you say, anti semitic. 

Allmo, I totally agree.  The Israelis have been harping on about the BBC for ages, it's almost funny.
« Last Edit: Friday 13 January 2006, 08:42:48 PM by BlufPurdi »
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline indi

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  • Death to David Pleat.
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #82 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 08:52:57 PM »
I think that the fact that everyone hates the BBC, proves that it's not biased at all.

Also, how ironic that The Guardian is one of Israel's biggest British critics, yet others accuse it of being dominated by Jews.

Offline Parky

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #83 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 09:03:17 PM »
Indigo,
You saved me taking it to the next level and my (s***) typing fingers will forever be grateful.
I have first hand experience of the paranoia and 'guilt tripping' the Israeli govt play on as I live in Germany......Where if you mention the
holocaust in a bar...the room goes quiet. bluecool.gif

Offline Allmo

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #84 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 09:38:33 PM »
Top post Indigo, very impressed.  You're right about the caution.  When Parky told me to be careful I was furiously scanning over everything I said to make sure I hadn't been, as you say, anti semitic. 

Allmo I totally agree.  The Israelis have been harping on about the BBC for ages, it's almost funny.

Yeah that was obiously me posting ,  blueyes.gif no such person as a , what is it ........... Johnnypd, no way.

But seriously, there is a great bais in the world to racism , where Isreal , as a jewish country, is not aloud to be bad mouthed otherwise it is Anti-semetic. But if Britiain is critiscised , is that being Anti- Catholic, or Anti-Protestant. THeres total hypocricy in the world. Catholics suffered great persecution in Britain in the past, a long time ago,but so should we use the same card they use.

Offline Allmo

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #85 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 09:39:12 PM »
Top post Indigo, very impressed.  You're right about the caution.  When Parky told me to be careful I was furiously scanning over everything I said to make sure I hadn't been, as you say, anti semitic. 

Allmo I totally agree.  The Israelis have been harping on about the BBC for ages, it's almost funny.

Yeah that was obiously me posting ,  blueyes.gif no such person as a , what is it ........... Johnnypd, no way.

But seriously, there is a great bais in the world to racism , where Isreal , as a jewish country, is not aloud to be bad mouthed otherwise it is Anti-semetic. But if Britiain is critiscised , is that being Anti-Protestant. THeres total hypocricy in the world. Catholics suffered great persecution in Britain in the past, a long time ago,but so should we use the same card they use.


Offline BlufPurdi

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  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #86 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 09:45:18 PM »
Mine in bold

alright i think this is going to be a long post...
Quote
that you believe Israel are absolutely blameless in this whole matter
no i dont but i did present a very one sided arguement to balance out the claim that israels birth is responsible for what is wrong in the world. i personally believe that the palestinians are more at fault of their own situation, theyve followed the wrong people that dug them into this whole. and i do believe that israel has been more accepting of coexisting with palestinians then the other way around.

You seem to just be taking the wishes of the armed groups such as Hamas and the likes.  Many ordinary Palestinians want peace, to have a decent life and not be in fear of their homes being bulldozed because someone might, and I stress might, live down the hall from them that is a terrorist.  Do you honestly think that is fair?  I didn't see the British army bulldozing all the houses in Leeds when we discovered the bombers and their homes.  No, that is not the best way to win hearts and minds, but of course, Israel couldn't give a s*** about Palestinian hearts and minds.

Quote
you deny the Israeli army's continuous oppression of Palestinian people, the non-stop destruction and shelling of their homes, the killing of women and children and the constant racism they have to suffer as a non-event.
this statement is just as one sided as my arguements.

No, he was pointing out the glaring facts that you ignored, he wasn't presenting a one-sided argument.  Facts that are very much relevent to the problems in the area.

Quote
I suppose you're in favour of the wall being constructed, are you

as long as its on israels land and not palestinians they have a right to do whatever. especially if it means stopping suicide bombers.

That's the problem, it's being build on the Palestinian side.  Now what do you have to say?  They have a right?  No.  How about the fact that they ignore the International Court of Justice?  Something the Americans also do, which has completely undermined it.
 
Quote
They simply couldn't give a s*** what the world thinks
and why do you think that is? when has the world ever came to the aid of the israelis? when was there ever pressure on the palestinians to stop suicide bombings? did anyone ever suggested of putting arafat to trial for all the crimes against humanity he has commited? the EU has been quite one sided against israel and if israel would comply with the EU thered be much more dead israelis.

That is possibly one of the funniest statments ever.  When has the world helped Israel, well, OK the WORLD hasn't, but USA has.  You'd be nothing without them.  The help Israel has received from them is pathetic, whilst Palestine have been given a fraction of that.  Not even a tenth of the aid Israel has received.  Arafat?  Crimes against humanity?  How about Ariel Sharon then?  Not heard of his little excursions into Beirut?  And that's only what I've read so far, he's got a very murky past.  But of course he gets away with it due to being in the army.  State terrorism, nothing more, nothing less.  Double standards strike once again.

Quote
How about Israel's Nuclear capabilities, I dare say this is OK too

its more ok for israel to have nuclear capabilities than iran simply because israel never went on the offensive against its neighbors and never called for the elimination of iran and never funded terror attacks in the country.

Doesn't make it OK.  It's double standards.  This President in Iran is the only one that has used such explicit language.  They've been developing Nuclear plants for over 2 decades now.  Israel has no right to them, largely because it pretends not to have them.  Yuo can't have these double standards, and I don't blame Iran, or any other Middle eastern nation, for wanting them. 

Quote
Well, how bloody honourable of them
very honourable actually. if giving back the land to the people who attacked you in order to eliminate your existence isnt a proof of willingness to coexist in peace then i dont know what is.

Are you for real?  You mean the land you stole in the first place?  Whilst you continually occupy the land you've given back.  What a proud nation it must be.  Really leading the world in morality isn't it.  Next.

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Try telling that to the Arab half of Jerusalem, which increasingly looks like it will never be in the hands of the Palestinians
actually sharon has been pushing for a palestinian state during his term, which included transfer of half of jerusalem to the palestinians. the only problem is that sharon is also trying to connect maale adumim with the israeli part of jerusalem which will be a land grab. this very arrogant move by the israeli side will probably be the biggest gridlock in negotiations.

They'll never give the Palestinians their half of Jerusalem.  It's simply not on the cards.  With Netanyahu, it's never ever going to happen.

Quote
Let's face it - it will never stop untill all the Israelis are re located to the USA
and heres another lovely balanced comment.

For some Arabs/Muslims this may be the case.  Thing is, why can't the Palestinians just take back their land.  The land that used to be Palestine?  After all, God probably promised them it too.   :roll:

Quote
Israel wouldn't have the army they have, if it wasn't for the US. Israel wouldn't have the LAND they have if it wasn't for the US
and is that a bad thing? israel wouldnt exist if they werent backed by the US and there would be another lovely massacre of jews in the area if israel couldnt defend itself.

It is when the other side get virtually nothing.  It is when they're backed by the US through everything they've done, under the name of Israel.  Some how escaping the label terrorism because it's done by an official army.  Jews have lived under Islamic occupation for centuries, to the best of my knowledge there were no massacres until the Zionists started their claim on Palestine.
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #87 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 09:46:23 PM »
Top post Indigo, very impressed. You're right about the caution. When Parky told me to be careful I was furiously scanning over everything I said to make sure I hadn't been, as you say, anti semitic.

Allmo I totally agree. The Israelis have been harping on about the BBC for ages, it's almost funny.

Yeah that was obiously me posting , blueyes.gif no such person as a , what is it ........... Johnnypd, no way.

But seriously, there is a great bais in the world to racism , where Isreal , as a jewish country, is not aloud to be bad mouthed otherwise it is Anti-semetic. But if Britiain is critiscised , is that being Anti- Catholic, or Anti-Protestant. THeres total hypocricy in the world. Catholics suffered great persecution in Britain in the past, a long time ago,but so should we use the same card they use.


Whoops!  Johnnypd even!
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline Allmo

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #88 on: Friday 13 January 2006, 11:18:32 PM »
One thing the the Iranian President said after the "wiping isreal off the map " comment.

"Why did'nt 50 years ago the jews relocate into a European state, and cause havoc their"

There is a point coming from the dicator, even though the holy shrine bollocks does contradict this. Isreal in my eyes was just a western satillite state, hence the enormous cash flow by America. But now it has advanced into a too idependant state, which has caused problems for both jews and muslims. It has vast amounts of nuclear weapons, a very good army and is a threat to it's neighbourgh states becasue of this. The Iranian president was very brave with these comments. It will make Isreali pressure even greater on iran, becasue mixed with its nukes, and hatred it will be a deadly combo for the Isreali's too take. 

Offline bulivye

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #89 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 12:07:27 AM »
come on, bluf, that's not fair.  if it were true, then israel would have booted out the palestinians long long ago and in no nice fashion either.  what were the camp david meetings about if not the usa trying to get both sides to compromise? 

they did!

that depends on who you ask.  in 1948 when israel was given nation status by the UN it didn't take hours before the surrounding arab countries declared war on the new nation of israel.  before the actual fighting started, palestinians left/abandoned/were told to leave by both israelis, in the form of vehicles slowly driving the streets of jerusalem with loudspeakers warning them that they'll be blood up to their knees if they stay, AND arabs, in the form of promises made to the palestinians of increased property they would aquire after the jews had been driven into the mediterranean sea.  the sand in the swimsuit for the arabs & palestinians was that israel won the war, leaving many former residents of israel/palestine without homes.  the arabs refused to grant them any place to call home in their countries for reasons of their own, but the suspicion is that they saw an opportunity to use the refugees as a media trump card.  what better way to get the sympathy of the world than to show children throwing stones at tanks as they mercilessly rumble through their streets?  an ironic twist to the david & goliath story.  so, jews use the holocaust to gain world sympathy and it works b/c they got their nation of israel.  now the pendulum is trying to swing back as the arabs use the refugees in the same way.   it's brutal tactics on both sides of two cultures steeped in the razzia blood feuds of the bedouin tradition--both groups claim abraham as their ancestor remember. 


as for the US support of the nation of israel that comes from 2-3 sources: the first, president truman was a bible-believing christian and really saw the new nation of israel as a fulfillment of prophecy; so the usa was the 1st nation to recognize the state of israel in '48.  this began a chain reaction of other nations following that lead in the voting.  second, after ww2 many displaced jews came to america and began to lead very successful lives and make a lot of $.  they remembered and looked after their own by financing a great deal of the costs of european jews who wanted to emmigrate to eretz-israel.  that financial support contiues to this day.  third, the usa, despite its internal problems (which are legion) is still a "christian" nation.  depending on which poll you read, 85-95% of the population claims to believe in God and more than half go to church.  they are always going to support israel all other things being equal, but they certainly are not.  when islamic terrorists are blowing up major US landmarks and killing non-muslims indescriminately throughout the world then for the average american it's a no-brainer--israel has been right all along! 

i think a decent case can be made for the restraint israel has shown on numerable occasions, but they certainly have innocent blood on their hands and don't seem to mind that they do.  as one guy i know put it, would you let your wife be raped twice if you could stop it the 2nd time?

for me it comes down to the fact that westerners want clearcut answers that just aren't there.  we fail to understand the religious passion of either group and we fail to comprehend the history and culture which begat it.  we're too lazy to be bothered to try and understand and so will only go back as far as the oldest point the most high-profile or convenient journalist will take us.

at this point it is helpful to believe in God because it is a problem that only He can sort out. 
altogether elsewhere vast
herds of reindeer move across
miles and miles of golden moss
silently and very fast

Offline Parky

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #90 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 12:44:53 AM »
.....all well and rosy...till Parky decided to introduce into the debate.....the....

























KABALLAH!!!!!!!!! :glasses9:

Offline bulivye

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #91 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 01:22:02 AM »
lol  we should get madonna's point of view! :idea1:
altogether elsewhere vast
herds of reindeer move across
miles and miles of golden moss
silently and very fast

Goashem

  • Guest
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #92 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 01:27:43 AM »
well mr bluff, i had a long post to comment on what youve said but i decided to erase it because it really doesnt matter to you what i have to say (it seems you dont even bother reading most of what i say anyway). you also seem to believe that a country can attack another and expect no negative repercussions if it shall lose. if thats the case then theres probably nothing anyone can tell you about the situation in israel that will defend it. and you seem to be either uneducated or choose to ignore(possibly as a counter arguments to what i say) the jewish history in the area (not the religious stuff). so ill tip my hat and say good day. maybe one day people will choose to resolve their differnces on the pitch rather than in the battlefield 

Offline bulivye

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #93 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 01:31:39 AM »
bummer, i was really enjoying the exchange.   thanks for playing goashem! clapping.gif

did that seem sarcastic?  not meant to be.  i did enjoy your posts.
altogether elsewhere vast
herds of reindeer move across
miles and miles of golden moss
silently and very fast

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #94 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 01:32:26 AM »
I think the problem is that you seem to think Israel do no wrong.  I'm trying to point out they're in the wrong as much as the Palestinians.  Come to your own conclusions about myself if you wish.  If you can't debate, that's not my problem.

You completely ignore the case of the other side.  I'm open to views.  I've completely taken on Bulivye's point of view.  He hasn't given me a one sided argument, and has expressed good points.  You openly admitted your statements were one sided, so I was always going to come back like that. 
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline bulivye

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #95 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 01:35:49 AM »
so, bluf,  IS israel the real danger to world peace?   
altogether elsewhere vast
herds of reindeer move across
miles and miles of golden moss
silently and very fast

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #96 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 01:38:35 AM »
so, bluf, IS israel the real danger to world peace?

It could be, just as much as Iran could be.  Like I said earlier in the thread, once Israel's politcal situation is sorted, and if it is Netanyahu, then both he and Ahmadinejad are going to play vital rolls in future peace in the region.  Which will have massive implications for the world.

Israel has two paths it can take.  The hardline way, with Netanyahu, or the current way with the Deputy PM.  Just like Iran had two paths.  It had the reformist root under Rafsanjani, or the hardline Ahmadinejad.  It choose the hardline.

It's a disaster waiting to occur.  The only hope we have is that sanctions work and turn the populas against Ahmadinejad, which I doubt, to be honest.
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Goashem

  • Guest
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #97 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 01:42:07 AM »
I think the problem is that you seem to think Israel do no wrong.  I'm trying to point out they're in the wrong as much as the Palestinians.  Come to your own conclusions about myself if you wish.  If you can't debate, that's not my problem.

You completely ignore the case of the other side.  I'm open to views. I've completely taken on Bulivye's point of view. He hasn't given me a one sided argument, and has expressed good points. You openly admitted your statements were one sided, so I was always going to come back like that.

fair enough. maybe when ill take the time to sort out a balanced arguement ill come back to this thread.

Offline indi

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Death to David Pleat.
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #98 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 02:13:07 AM »
Oh, how disappointing, I seem to have entered the debate just as it is finishing, back to the "Magic of Jesus" thread then, I guess.

Offline bulivye

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #99 on: Saturday 14 January 2006, 02:52:25 AM »
Oh, how disappointing, I seem to have entered the debate just as it is finishing, back to the "Magic of Jesus" thread then, I guess.

wait!  you can't LEAVE...all the plants'll die. 
altogether elsewhere vast
herds of reindeer move across
miles and miles of golden moss
silently and very fast