Topic: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?

[Footsoldier]

Again, what are you talking about? Foreign airlines can't fly internally in the US? I'm sure you aren't stupid but comments like that are absurd....are you unaware of BA, KLM,Virgin.....? Where do you get this s*** from?

[Rob W]

They can fly TO the USA dear friend but they can't pick up any passengers for flights  WITHIN the USA - BA can't compete on say New York - LA......................

They can't even buy more that 25% of a US airline

Wake up and get out of your cloistered little world

[Parky]

Rob,

I don't think he'll be wanting any afters.
 :rofl:

[Parky]

Maybe the problem is only about 40% have passports and don't get out much.

[Jimburst]

great thread.

[Jimburst]

great thread.

Dont you just hate it when you kill a thread?

[BlufPurdi]

Didn't kill it, just didn't give anything to reply to. 

[Goashem]

ok i didnt really bother reading much of the thread because its quite long, but ive seen some sentences here and there about israel being the devil in the world which i laughed at. first of all people mentioned that israel has tremendous military capability, which is true. israel has no problem blowing apart any of their neighbors yet israel has never been the initiator of the wars in the middle east. israel allowed yassir arafat and his fatah movement enter their country after he's been kicked out of "fellow" muslim countries. they even accepted him as the leader of the palestinian people. now usually a party is judged by its leader and if your leader is a terrorist what would you expect the palestinian cause to be? yet israel still agreed to negotiate peace with him (which reminds me of the double standard when the world doesnt really seem to mind when russians exterminate chechens). now as to the "land grabs", this land was grabbed throughout the wars the arab world waged against israel (spoils of war, strategic points such as the golan heights etc...) and israel has slowly given them back even though terrorist attacks has never ceased! what kind of country would do that? id also like to remind you that last time surveyed, more than 80 percent of the palestine population was in support of suicide bombings! what would you do if someone decided to blow you up at st james's park? to be quite honest israel is the only reason that the middle east has some order. that is everyone in the middle east hates israel and it brings the muslim countries together. when (more of an if) israel is gone muslim countries will have to face their hatred toward each, and i presume the outcome wont be pretty. as for the media no one is more one sided than the BBC. this network has never been sympathetic to the israel side and still has not apologized (at least not that i know about) for the false story about the hebron massacre that never happened.
my biggest problem in the middle east is the arrogance and corruption of the palestinian leaders. no one screwed the palestinians more than their leaders. the biggest mistake was instead of acknowledging their new country in 48 they decided to lunch a massive organized attack against israel which cost them dearly and made them world refugees forever (or so it seems right now)... which reminds me the buldozing of refugee camps is not done to p*ss palestinians off but to destroy weapons labs where terror organizations operate.

[BlufPurdi]

ok i didnt really bother reading much of the thread because its quite long, but ive seen some sentences here and there about israel being the devil in the world which i laughed at. first of all people mentioned that israel has tremendous military capability, which is true. israel has no problem blowing apart any of their neighbors yet israel has never been the initiator of the wars in the middle east. israel allowed yassir arafat and his fatah movement enter their country after he's been kicked out of "fellow" muslim countries. they even accepted him as the leader of the palestinian people. now usually a party is judged by its leader and if your leader is a terrorist what would you expect the palestinian cause to be? yet israel still agreed to negotiate peace with him (which reminds me of the double standard when the world doesnt really seem to mind when russians exterminate chechens). now as to the "land grabs", this land was grabbed throughout the wars the arab world waged against israel (spoils of war, strategic points such as the golan heights etc...) and israel has slowly given them back even though terrorist attacks has never ceased! what kind of country would do that? id also like to remind you that last time surveyed, more than 80 percent of the palestine population was in support of suicide bombings! what would you do if someone decided to blow you up at st james's park? to be quite honest israel is the only reason that the middle east has some order. that is everyone in the middle east hates israel and it brings the muslim countries together. when (more of an if) israel is gone muslim countries will have to face their hatred toward each, and i presume the outcome wont be pretty. as for the media no one is more one sided than the BBC. this network has never been sympathetic to the israel side and still has not apologized (at least not that i know about) for the false story about the hebron massacre that never happened.
my biggest problem in the middle east is the arrogance and corruption of the palestinian leaders. no one screwed the palestinians more than their leaders. the biggest mistake was instead of acknowledging their new country in 48 they decided to lunch a massive organized attack against israel which cost them dearly and made them world refugees forever (or so it seems right now)... which reminds me the buldozing of refugee camps is not done to p*ss palestinians off but to destroy weapons labs where terror organizations operate.

Well, maybe you should've read most of the thread because people have been fairly balanced in their criticism.

There wouldn't be half the trouble if the Israeli state wasn't just declared in 1948.  You can claim they're bringing order now, but they created the disorder in the first place, my friend.  Like I said, you should've read the thread, because you've basically repeated what has been said at points.

With regards to your last point, of course it is.  :roll:

[Goashem]

Well, maybe you should've read most of the thread because people have been fairly balanced in their criticism.

There wouldn't be half the trouble if the Israeli state wasn't just declared in 1948.  You can claim they're bringing order now, but they created the disorder in the first place, my friend.  Like I said, you should've read the thread, because you've basically repeated what has been said at points.

With regards to your last point, of course it is.  :roll:

well sorry for putting my two cents in and answering the guys question.
what do you mean there wouldnt be half the trouble? what do you think was happening there before the EU parted the country? smiles and sunshine? and how is israel responsible for syria occupying lebanon, iraq waging war on kuwait/iran, terror attacks against egyptian christians, the opression of the progressive ideologies by conservatives?

roll your eyes all you want but the evidence is there. refugee camps are being used as weapons workshops. im not saying all of them are but there are enough. what do you expect from the israeli government to just ignore terrorism ? 

[BlufPurdi]

well sorry for putting my two cents in and answering the guys question.
what do you mean there wouldnt be half the trouble? what do you think was happening there before the EU parted the country? smiles and sunshine? and how is israel responsible for syria occupying lebanon, iraq waging war on kuwait/iran, terror attacks against egyptian christians, the opression of the progressive ideologies by conservatives?

roll your eyes all you want but the evidence is there. refugee camps are being used as weapons workshops. im not saying all of them are but there are enough. what do you expect from the israeli government to just ignore terrorism ?

Now that's being silly.  What I was getting at is that not everyone was laying the problems of the world at Israel's feet and if you'd read through, I atleast, was just as critical of Islamic regimes in the region.  They've not helped cause, at all.  The corruption is awful.  ALso no one is blaming Israel for wars in other areas.  Israel has a lot to do with the rise in terrorism though, they consistantly gave Muslims a cause to fight under by consistant oppression of Palestine.  You can try and point out all the times it gave concessions, but the brutallity of the Israeli Defence Force has been there to see. 

I, personally, have never said the Islamic nations, especially ones surrounding Israel, are free of guilt.  They're absolute idiots.

Refugee camps may have been used as labs, but I'll remember that when I see the homes of many being bulldozed as the children of these said houses watch.  And they wonder why they have enemies. 

[Parky]

Golem,
What't the point of coming on here and shooting your mouth off and admitting at the same time
you couldn't be bothered to read the thread?
You don't deserve a response, I think Bluff has been overly polite to you.

[Parky]

Bluff,
There is some doubt as to the Jews actual historical connection with the land they were given, I read
summat about this, I wonder if you can dredge something up...
Weren't the Israeli's themselves killing British soldiers back in the day??

[BlufPurdi]

They certainly did, although why they attacked them, I'm not too sure.  They probably attacked them to put more pressure on them to make sure the Jewish population were given more control of the land, and eventual total control. 

I'm not sure about the about the connection.  Muslims, I think, believe all teachings in Judiasm are Islamic teachings, same goes for Christianity.  So, essentially, Moses was a Muslim, as was Jesus.  I think that might be how they dispute the claim.  I'd need to read more into that though.

[bulivye]

weren't israeli's killing british soldiers because the british had limited jewish immigration to israel?  the british have been a very strange hybrid in israel's history.  one day supporting the need/right for jews to have their own state, e.g. the balfour declaration and then turning around and issuing the white paper the next.  france has been mixed in their support/opposition as well.  the dreyfus affair etc... 

as for moses and jesus being muslim, muslims and jews both claim abraham as an ancestor, well, i should say arabs not muslims.  arabs are the offspring of ishmael and hebrews the offspring of isaac.  muslims claim that the holy books of jews and christians are corrupted texts, only the qur'an is the true word of allah and then only if read in arabic.

it's a very complex topic and perhaps the problem lies in the desire for we westerners to need to see a clear cut side of right and wrong, when really, both jews and palestinians have many incidents of shame in their past.   i've heard one person say upon returning from a year long excursion to the middle east that the answer to the whole situation over there is exactly what they've got---jews and arabs DESERVE each other!    bluesigh.gif

one other thing i'd like to add to the discussion is that zionism and the current nation of israel is a SECULAR political entity.  when israelis celebrate the birth of their nation there are jews in jerusalem who burn that state's flag to symbolize their opposition to its existence.  in their eyes the true nation of israel will only come about when messiah returns... 

[Goashem]

Now that's being silly.  What I was getting at is that not everyone was laying the problems of the world at Israel's feet and if you'd read through, I atleast, was just as critical of Islamic regimes in the region.  They've not helped cause, at all.  The corruption is awful.  ALso no one is blaming Israel for wars in other areas.  Israel has a lot to do with the rise in terrorism though, they consistantly gave Muslims a cause to fight under by consistant oppression of Palestine.  You can try and point out all the times it gave concessions, but the brutallity of the Israeli Defence Force has been there to see. 

I, personally, have never said the Islamic nations, especially ones surrounding Israel, are free of guilt.  They're absolute idiots.

Refugee camps may have been used as labs, but I'll remember that when I see the homes of many being bulldozed as the children of these said houses watch.  And they wonder why they have enemies. 

what im getting from you is that you are assuming there would be no terrorism if israel wasnt created? is that correct?
actually the brutality of the IDF has increased in this latest intefadah and thats simply due to the public getting tired of watching politicians attempt peace talks when people explode in nightclubs and the likes. unfortunately this situation is now a he said she said arguement so its really hard to imagine anything good will happen there soon.

[BlufPurdi]

Don't make wild assumptions.  I'm saying by refusing to comprimise they've given a platform, a cause, for them to get behind.  I never said they are the cause though.  I've mentioned previously in the thread that problems with Kashmir, countless wars in the middle east also have fuelled terrorism.  This is why I had a pop at you not reading the thread, because you'd know where I stand, had you done so.

That's all that's needed? 'Fraid not. Have you not heard of Kashmir? That's little to do with Israel, but gets about half the air time in the media. Many Muslims are as outraged at that as they are the Palestinian cause.

Iraq, Afghanistan too. These are almost more important than Palestine for future peace at the moment. No, there's more than just Palestine that needs sorted.

The above quote is what I've said on the issue.  Notice I did NOT say Palestine is the only cause of all these problems, there are many factors.  Although, I do believe it kicked it all off.  I'd like you to tell me what else started it, if you disagree.

The brutallity was there long before the latest intefadah.  And not only in Israel/Palestine.  The trips into Beirut leave a lot to be desired, to say the least.

[Goashem]

Don't make wild assumptions. I'm saying by refusing to comprimise they've given a platform, a cause, for them to get behind. I never said they are the cause though. I've mentioned previously in the thread that problems with Kashmir, countless wars in the middle east also have fuelled terrorism. This is why I had a pop at you not reading the thread, because you'd know where I stand, had you done so.

The brutallity was there long before the latest intefadah. And not only in Israel/Palestine. The trips into Beirut leave a lot to be desired, to say the least.

well i have read the thread and here are your statements that cause me to make those assumptions

"I think Israel is the real problem in the world.  There's little doubt of that for me."
"There wouldn't be half the trouble if the Israeli state wasn't just declared in 1948. You can claim they're bringing order now, but they created the disorder in the first place, my friend"

which made me think that you blame the terrorism in israel completely on israel.
and what comprimise are you talking about? because israel has only been giving land back. if youre talking about full withdrawal how can you expect that when everytime theres an ease on palestinians the terrorists take advantage of that and bomb israel again? if the palestinian government could have been trusted to put an end to the attacks maybe there could have been some progress (and heres the he said she said).

[indi]

I can see I'm going to have to actually read this thread, before posting in it, it's too late now, but in the morning, I'll be back.

[DJ_NUFC]

Goashem, not wishing to step on your toes here at all, but as an observer, I am going to make a wild assumption - going entirely by your posts - that you believe Israel are absolutely blameless in this whole matter. You paint the Palestinians as bloodhungry lunatics whereas you deny the Israeli army's continuous oppression of Palestinian people, the non-stop destruction and shelling of their homes, the killing of women and children and the constant racism they have to suffer as a non-event.

I think the only person on this thread so far who is one-sided is you, my friend.

[BlufPurdi]

well i have read the thread and here are your statements that cause me to make those assumptionswhich made me think that you blame the terrorism in israel completely on israel.
and what comprimise are you talking about? because israel has only been giving land back. if youre talking about full withdrawal how can you expect that when everytime theres an ease on palestinians the terrorists take advantage of that and bomb israel again? if the palestinian government could have been trusted to put an end to the attacks maybe there could have been some progress (and heres the he said she said).

To be fair, the Palestinian government can be trusted just as much as the Israelis.  This is the problem either side always tries to paint the other as evil, when both infact have a long way to go.

Israel is a dangerous country because it retains full banking from the US, no matter what they do.  I suppose you're in favour of the wall being constructed, are you?  I hope not, as it really says a lot about the attitude of the state there.  They simply couldn't give a s*** what the world thinks.  You like to point out all the failings of the Arabs, do you feel there is any genuine justification for what is little more than segregation?

How about Israel's Nuclear capabilities, I dare say this is OK too.  Yet big bad Iran isn't allowed them.  Neither should, but that's never going to happen.  I don't blame Iran for wanting a weapon, whether it be as a deterrent or to use.  I fear they would use it, yes, but, we, the West, can no longer play the moral high-ground if Israel retains its own. 

Israel look more like they will strike Iran, than the US does.  This is why they're dangerous, it's going to kick off all sorts.  The implicatons could be nasty, and with Netanyahu in power, I hold out little hope of future peace with Iran, and very little hope of a viable Palestinian state.  Certainly not on the borders declared by UN agreements.

You also point out that Israel have been giving back the land.  Well, how bloody honourable of them.  Try telling that to Palestinian familes that see their communites cut in half by the wall.  Try telling that to the Arab half of Jerusalem, which increasingly looks like it will never be in the hands of the Palestinians.  If that's not a 'land grab', I don't know what is.

[Rob W]

Let sface it - it will never stop untill all the Israelis are re located to the USA

[bulivye]

Israel is a dangerous country because it retains full banking from the US, no matter what they do.

come on, bluf, that's not fair.  if it were true, then israel would have booted out the palestinians long long ago and in no nice fashion either.  what were the camp david meetings about if not the usa trying to get both sides to compromise? 

[BlufPurdi]

come on, bluf, that's not fair. if it were true, then israel would have booted out the palestinians long long ago and in no nice fashion either. what were the camp david meetings about if not the usa trying to get both sides to compromise?

A bit harsh, maybe.  But they do retain unconditional support.  How many times have the US vetoed moves by the UN against Israel?  With regards to the wall, especially. 

And anyway, yes, they might have been pushing for a comprimise.  Look what happened though, far-right extremists kill that.  Israel is dangerous for that very reason, their backing from the US.  Israel wouldn't have the army they have, if it wasn't for the US.  Israel wouldn't have the LAND they have if it wasn't for the US.  Can point out one occasion where they've tried their hardest, but 50 odd years is a long time to time to finally pull the finger out their arse.

[Rob W]

come on, bluf, that's not fair. if it were true, then israel would have booted out the palestinians long long ago and in no nice fashion either. what were the camp david meetings about if not the usa trying to get both sides to compromise?

making sure the Saudis didn't cut off their oil?