Author Topic: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?  (Read 111265 times)

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Offline WhatTheFunk?

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 09:55:21 AM »
What gets up my nose is the way everyone is runnign around shouting that Iran is about to blow up the world when the Israelis have had a "secret" (well, non admitted) bomb for years

If I was Iranian I'd be putting absolute maximum effort into getting a bomb - they are surrounded by N powers and any fool can see why Kim Il Sung is still in power and Saddam is sitting in the dock in Baghdad.

Set off one bucket of instant sunshine and watch people back off

 Probably the biggest arsenal in the world at that.
Here for all the wrong reasons

Offline Rob W

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 10:08:20 AM »
Aye - a few years back their Air force was bigger than the UK & Jormany combined
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Offline Parky

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 11:43:56 AM »
The war continues on two fronts, the material and the spiritual. In so much as the two are actually intrinsically linked hasn't gone unnoticed by certain parties.
Unfortunately there is less determinism in the last grasp for Ahmerikan supremacy, it is more a case of panic at the site of an emerging uncontrollable near future. Bringing Islam to heel is part of the underlying agenda as it has proven a stubborn foe with regard to rolling over and
accepting the dominance of materialism and what I call the technological construct.
On many fronts US supremacy is failing and found woefully short of ideas and economic surety...The are currently running an admitted
budget deficit of $375 billion dollars, the last reliable figures form 2003. This figure was project for $565 billion in 04 and fast reaching $720 billion if projections for 07 follow trend. The Industrial Arms complex (iac) has continued desperate corrective overspend in the form of wars to regenerate a docile and beleguared economy, where mulitnational after multinaltional (Enron style) has gone to the wall, close on the heels of Japan losing 4 of its biggest banks to fraud and bankcruptcy legislation in the 90's. THE OVERALL PICTURE is not good....AND THEY KNOW THIS.
The near future for the US and EU is fillled with uncertainty, unemployment, which will finally lead to public and society wide unrest, the threat of the atom bomb is the psychic policeman that THEY are unfolding if we don't fall back into line.
The charge for greater land and asset grab is counterconnected to the need for more population and thought control, they are doing it they only way they know how.....LESS DEMOCRACY more darkness.
I will talk more of the darkness later.  bluecool.gif

Offline Rob W

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 12:02:43 PM »
actually I'm quite optomistic.................

China and India are taking their place on the world stage and thus have a vested interest in not rocking the boat (do you know how many US$ the russians and chinese hold? - they are keeping the US afloat)

The high oilprice means the Saudis etc can spend more thus cutting employment and undercutting extremism

Japan seems to be growing again and the other "tiger" economies with it and China

The EU  is expanding - which lowers tension in the Balkans, provides plumbers for us and generates more income and higher standards of living

Most of Africa is still a basket case but nothing has changed there in 50 years and its no threat to our comfortable life style

The Russians are still enigmatic but are much less of a threat than they were 15 years ago

All in all  it has been a hell of a lot worse in my lifetime...................................... 


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Offline Parky

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 12:24:45 PM »
China and India are using the 'old' model of compressing costs and are seen as a threat to the New Empire, they will pay a heavy price for their dalliance. The growth of these economies is reliant on cheap and steady supply of fossil fuels which planet wide is unsustainable and threatens the planet in new and unmeasured ways.
Their time on the stage will be curtailed...and how.
The Gulf Oil market will take a backseat to new oil from the old USSR and especially gas to the U.K.
The thresholds of cost compression that were reached in Old Europe in the late 70's await the 'new' old econimies, but at a much faster rate, due to cannibalism of supply and the lack of host and captive markets as the old European model benifited from.
China has been buying up surplus oil futures at a prodigous rate...the Empire will have no choice but to counter....and soon.
In its final stages Mystical Capitalism can only see huge profits in war and plague........

Offline BlufPurdi

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 12:51:12 PM »
For the record, I very much agree that a lot of very powerful and influential people have consistantly attempted to move the Earth in the direct of Human unity through various means. I'm not so much thinking of Illuminati-type stuff, though.

There would be a lot of people who would argue that we'll only explore space (with particular vigour, at any rate) if "we" are comprised of competing states. That Human advancements are the result of conflict. Would the USA have put Armstrong and Aldrin on the Moon if there were no Soviets? It would be a total waste of time and money, surely. Shy of more apocalyptic visions (which I'm not averse to), sustainable world governance will only come about if/when we should make contact with aliens, or more to the point, alien civilisations that would be capable of harming us.

Aye, contact with Aliens would also be on of those 'major' events that would unite us.  Or atleast be used as the reason to.  Read a few of Terence McKenna's books and that's what he reckons will be happening around 2012, due to his research amongst other things.  You might find him an intriguing read.

With regards to the US/Soviet space race, there's no chance they'd have gone.  Human advancements are generally made after conflicts, more reason for me why half these bullshit wars are fought.  Try and test things 'on the field'.
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

Offline Parky

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 12:58:51 PM »
Of course when the village becomes unruly, it is time to call in the circus.
Miracles I tell thee...

Offline Rob W

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 03:19:03 PM »
China and India are using the 'old' model of compressing costs and are seen as a threat to the New Empire, they will pay a heavy price for their dalliance. The growth of these economies is reliant on cheap and steady supply of fossil fuels which planet wide is unsustainable and threatens the planet in new and unmeasured ways.
Their time on the stage will be curtailed...and how.
The Gulf Oil market will take a backseat to new oil from the old USSR and especially gas to the U.K.
The thresholds of cost compression that were reached in Old Europe in the late 70's await the 'new' old econimies, but at a much faster rate, due to cannibalism of supply and the lack of host and captive markets as the old European model benifited from.
China has been buying up surplus oil futures at a prodigous rate...the Empire will have no choice but to counter....and soon.
In its final stages Mystical Capitalism can only see huge profits in war and plague........

A bit wild I think

The USA is so concerned about China they are buying half their imports from them - China & India are still growing at HIGH energy prices - in fact high prices drives them to energy efficiency even faster.  The "fossil fuels are running out" has been around since 1900 - pay enough and people will find it and develope it

The middle East oil is both cheap and accesible - ever seen the costs of building pipelines from Siberia at $ 1 million a mile?

"China has been buying up surplus oil futures at a prodigous rate" - evidence???   Not visibly

What "captive markets" did the old Europe benifit from?    Why does Europe have the highest standard of living it's ever had?

"Mystical Capitalism can only see huge profits in war and plague" - which is why stockmarkets fall when  a war breaks out - and PLAGUE?    FFS - when did we last have an outbreak of Plague??? 1665 IIRC (I  remember it as a lad).  And where are the profits in Plague - chemical companies, JCB's, nursing homes, red paint..................   I can see that but its a bit of abummer for the retail, housing, & entertainment business  IIRC

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bobbyshinton

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 05:09:40 PM »
actually I'm quite optomistic.................

China and India are taking their place on the world stage and thus have a vested interest in not rocking the boat (do you know how many US$ the russians and chinese hold? - they are keeping the US afloat)

The high oilprice means the Saudis etc can spend more thus cutting employment and undercutting extremism

Japan seems to be growing again and the other "tiger" economies with it and China

The EU  is expanding - which lowers tension in the Balkans, provides plumbers for us and generates more income and higher standards of living

Most of Africa is still a basket case but nothing has changed there in 50 years and its no threat to our comfortable life style

The Russians are still enigmatic but are much less of a threat than they were 15 years ago

All in all  it has been a hell of a lot worse in my lifetime...................................... 



bluelaugh.gif

Offline Parky

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 10 January 2006, 07:40:03 PM »
Rob W,
You don't work for Arthur Andersen by any chance? :tongue3:
Do you ever catch the news?

The US economy along with Germany and France are a quagmire or debt and inefficency...Erupean countries have reached the point
where they are admitting pensions cannnot be guaranteed and people will need to work to 70.

If you did read my post you will see that the US is running its biggest budget deficit in history....and the underlying trends
which will filter through ie high energy prices, are still to show up...But maybe you know better than George Soros..(Take a look at his
book the crisis of Modern Capitalism)..He is the geezer who took the pound down a few years back.

As for trading with China did you notice the LITTLE DEBATE about NEW TRADE tarrrifs directed against primarily CHINA??
Drugs companies are actually in a profit renaissance mainly due to the spread of AIDS, HEPATITIS, CANCER, new types of
incurable TB and a myriad of new breathing illnesses especially in European...THIS is the underlying COST of your so called
fossil fuel driven 'new economies'...CHINA is now the worlds biggest polluter and has been building one new coal fired power station every
3 months for the last 5 years, with no interntion of stopping.

None of this IS SUSTAINABLE.


Offline Parky

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 11 January 2006, 11:06:46 AM »
The Rothschilds. bluecool.gif

Offline Rob W

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #36 on: Wednesday 11 January 2006, 02:03:00 PM »
" Rob W,
You don't work for Arthur Andersen by any chance? tongue3"

I wish


Its just that all this doom and gloom seems at variance with life as I know it

I know Soros made zillions on the £ but he lost a bucket load a couple of years back bettign against the $ as well......................

You sound like the "Club of Rome" in 74 who reckoned we were DOOMED within a few years

Get out, look around - things aren't perfect but they are better than they've ever been in human history

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Offline Parky

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #37 on: Wednesday 11 January 2006, 11:33:32 PM »
Rob,

Your right I'll try harder. bluecry.gif

Offline Tooj

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #38 on: Wednesday 11 January 2006, 11:40:27 PM »
Aye, contact with Aliens would also be on of those 'major' events that would unite us.  Or atleast be used as the reason to.  Read a few of Terence McKenna's books and that's what he reckons will be happening around 2012
Has he been listening to this man?

"Elsewhere, at worst, modern commercial football could be seen as the mall rather than the circus; insidiously bland, decaffeinated and pre-packed, its relentless formulaic repetition an instrument for disabling consciousness rather than manipulating it."

David Goldblatt

Offline BlufPurdi

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #39 on: Wednesday 11 January 2006, 11:49:27 PM »
No, the programme has probably been listening to Terence McKenna though.  He stated it decades ago.
« Last Edit: Thursday 12 January 2006, 01:37:23 AM by BlufPurdi »
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

Offline DJ_NUFC

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #40 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 01:28:05 AM »
Interesting thread.

A couple of points though: No matter what doom-mongerers say, the growth of India and China is a freakin' relief and was only a matter of time someone else saw fruits of their hard work over the years to counter the long-running powers that have been controlling the world.

The fact that the US right now can't stop their own companies from investing in China and India is one that is relished by most observers. Note the recent Supreme Court case that was an attempt to ban a Chinese company from buying out an American company. So much for capitalism and 'free market', eh?

I understand what you mean, Parky, when you say China and India are using up resources at an alarming rate - I can attest they're not exactly using them up, they're simply demanding them as they are going to need a lot of them, and  very soon - but to think this is only a temporary issue, and a bad one at that, is to be extremely short-sighted.

Anyone remember what happened when the world was at war for rubber in the 1900s? Pretty much exactly like the case with India and China right now, the US's middle-class was booming and suddenly everyone needed, wanted, an automobile (a machine that had only recently been invented and was thought of as only for the rich). A short version of the story is: after using up most of the rubber plantations around the globe and realising that they're going to be in short supply in comparison to the demand, the US contacted a man who had been living among the tribes in Amazonian Uruguay for decades. They told him to find a rubber tree there, to check for rubber. The man, unaware of the government's intentions, found a huge forest full of them. Sweet, sap-filled rubber. And down came the Americans with their machetes and cleared the whole f***ing forest - killing all wildlife, people and habitat of that region, and made the biggest f***ing plantation of rubber the world had ever seen.

This, my friends, is how economies are built. This is how you and I can drive to work everyday and can afford our $2 McDonald's meal. The Iraq war is the reason we're only still paying less than a $1 a litre for gas, and not something a lot more in the future.

Of course, none of it is fair. It's sick. But this is the way the world works.

So when I hear in the news, especially in American media, that India and China are the new evils of the world, it gets on my f***ing tits. Why, coz they can finally compete with you on a global level? They're simply doing what you've been doing. What the whole world's been doing.

But I also agree with Rob W. The world really isn't as bad as it many people make it out to be. It's surely a lot worse than you can imagine, but also not as bad as you fear at times.

The world has cycles, and there are balancing acts going on just under the surface. This has been happening forever. Every empire has crumbled. New ones have risen.

And as usual, there is nothing the people can actually do about it. Those in power make the decisions, and those without get affected by them. But hey, you can always vote.

India and China are simply what the Western powers have feared for a long time: competition. And as they say in the world of business, all competition is good for the consumer.

Oh by the way, some people mentioned Kashmir and India's nuclear capabilities on here, putting them in the same boat as Iran, Israel and the lot. Care to explain? Got me rather confused. The only country India would ever drop a nuke on is Pakistan. And even that I have my doubts. We didn't when they attacked us cowardly in Kargil, we simply pushed them back to their homeland, so why would we now that we're on an economic rise?

Remember, when you're making money, everyone's your friend.

 bluewink.gif


Offline BlufPurdi

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  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #41 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 01:36:15 AM »
Oh by the way, some people mentioned Kashmir and India's nuclear capabilities on here, putting them in the same boat as Iran, Israel and the lot. Care to explain? Got me rather confused. The only country India would ever drop a nuke on is Pakistan. And even that I have my doubts. We didn't when they attacked us cowardly in Kargil, we simply pushed them back to their homeland, so why would we now that we're on an economic rise?

I mentioned Kashmir in regards to Adam^'s comments that Palestine was the "only problem" and fix that then we're fine.  I just used that as another example of animosity between Muslims and the rest of the world. 

I also made a comment which is the same as yours that India never threatened to wipe Pakistan off the map, or would ever do so, that was in response to Rob W's comments.  Pointing out that Iran and Israel are a different kettle of fish.
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

Offline Rob W

  • General Member
Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #42 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 09:50:47 AM »
Hmmm I seem to remember a couple of years ago there was a panic when it looked as if India was looking at a pre-emptive strike on pakistan - the Foreign Office warned Brits about traveling to teh sub-contitnent IIRC
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Offline Parky

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #43 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 12:01:46 PM »
I think we need to condense here a bit.
1.America is finished.

The question really is...To what lengths are they going to go to survive?

Offline DJ_NUFC

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #44 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 12:04:33 PM »
Hmmm I seem to remember a couple of years ago there was a panic when it looked as if India was looking at a pre-emptive strike on pakistan - the Foreign Office warned Brits about traveling to teh sub-contitnent IIRC

Aye, and too bad India didn't.

 bluecool.gif jk, people.

Screw politics. The leaders of nations never, ever represent the people, and 100% of the time act on their own accord. Which is why I just watch football, drink and try to live life to the fullest.

As you never know when the next World War's around the corner.

See Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove. Love that movie.

Offline Parky

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #45 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 12:10:11 PM »
DJ bluelaugh.gif

Quite a dark film, but not too far off the button. :tongue3:

Obviously some day technology will arrive that will make Nuclear weapons antiques...

Many people have a feeling that the world is strenously trying to balance itself and many
pressure groups and even  big business itself in a small way are trying to moderate their actions...

I think we are in a time of upheveal for many reasons.....But obviously this is being kept from us...

Offline Rob W

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #46 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 03:53:49 PM »
The Millenium was 6 years ago Parky......................
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Offline bulivye

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #47 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 04:06:39 PM »
I don't think I've said anything out of line.  I'm not having a go at Jews, at all.  It's the leaders of these countries, not the people.

I'm sure many Jewish people share my views, infact I know many do.  I've read the books.  Islamic countries are us much to blame for the problems of the world as Israel in recent times.  Just Israel might as well be America the way they're always backed up.  And the whole Israel thing kicked it off. 

The Holocaust was horrific.  I don't believe I made any reference to it though.

EDIT:  Ah, Adam^ did.  The holocaust wasn't used as the reason to take Palestine, ever.  The movement to take Palestine started way before WW2 was even a remote possiblity.  Try 60/70 years, and read about Zionism.  Please don't use that, as it's wrong and is offensive to people.

but until the holocaust, the world was always going to be deaf to the "needs" of the Zionists.  the guilt that major role players in WW2 had from the death camps etc...  meant that zionists had a better grip (if that's the right word) on their future...     sorry, haven't read the whole thread hope i'm not being a minister of the department of redundancy department
altogether elsewhere vast
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miles and miles of golden moss
silently and very fast

Footsoldier

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #48 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 04:19:22 PM »
I work for a British company in the US and really have to laugh at some of the comments on this and other threads which  display a degree of ignorance on the interplay between the US and Western European markets in particular. Without the free US market which provides multinational companies with profits to churn back into research and development and to keep plants open in less profitable countries for example, many of you in the UK wouldn't have a job. So you can sit back and smirk at any shifts in power that you percieve to be happening but you have to recognize that the EU with it's policy of admitting counties who want to take out of the kitty rather than contribute to it will eventually go down the toilet. It's one thing to open up new markets in the likes of Chinaor India with their vast populations, but what good is it if nobody has the money to drive the need for the goods? Also, are you going to be competitive with a huge labour force making a pound or so an hour and being happy about it? Can you explain to me how you'll afford your season tickets and average house prices of 175,000 pounds?

I'm not sure where your glee comes from if there is economic chaos in the west.

Offline Rob W

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Re: Is Israel the real danger to world peace?
« Reply #49 on: Thursday 12 January 2006, 05:02:40 PM »
Is that the "free" US market that discriminates against  Canadian lumber even tho the WTO says you are being discriminatory, or the US market that doesn't allow furreners to buy your airlines (or even fly internally) or the "free" market that discriminates against European insurance companies or the "free" market that ...................
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