Author Topic: Hugo Chavez Mega-thread.  (Read 68463 times)

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Offline Parky

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 25 June 2006, 11:29:29 PM »
I like him, hope it doesn't end in tears.

Alan Shearer 9

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 25 June 2006, 11:40:33 PM »
it will more likely end in his still beating heart being ripped out of his chest by Condeleeza Rice in a robot suit

Offline Rob W

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #27 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 07:47:37 AM »
Chavez is another S American military man who thinks he can run the place by taking a populist line, tearing up all the legistlation, driving out investment and alientating the Middle Class

It always leads to tears and leaves the place worse off than when he started
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Offline Adam^

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #28 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 11:04:56 AM »
Chavez is another S American military man who thinks he can run the place by taking a populist line, tearing up all the legistlation, driving out investment and alientating the Middle Class

It always leads to tears and leaves the place worse off than when he started

I can see your point, but chavez isnt trying to remove the rich or destroy the middle classes. He is simply giveing funding and support to the poor people who need it most. The schemes he has done have also helped the middle classes the new hospitals i saw being built one was near the slums but the other two were in the more affluent areas. Not as if he is just targetting the poor. Everyone is becomnig better off, there country is growing and modernising and he i helping this process by not leaving the poorest parts of society behind. If you want to cast-type him ni to a Castro or whatever go ahead but donr say it will all end in tears when he isnt trying to be like any of them.

Offline Rehhagel

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #29 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 03:32:58 PM »
Adam

A tourist visit is not a very good way to assess any country.

Organisations that research health and standards of living include the World Health Organisation http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/
and the UN Human Development Reports.
[http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2003/indicator/cty_f_VEN.html

By walking around you won't find out that:
- Youth unemployment is 23%
- 30% Rural and 15% Urban of the pop. don't have access to an improved water source
- 29% of Urban pop. don't have access to improved sanitation
- Immunization against measles has deteriorated to 49%
- Undernourishment of people has increased to 21% from 11%
- Net secondary enrollment ratio has increased from 19% to 50%.
- Venezuela is ranked 69th on the Human Poverty Index, Cuba is ranked 52nd


Quote
Just a point i cant see what you think is wrong with putting countires wealth in to helping the poor, if you think that should go live in texas tbh.


I'm not a Socialist.


Edit: I accessed the report from the WHO and just noticed it's for 2003, they have a recent release...

Most of the above have improved, one has declined.

tbh

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #30 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 03:43:08 PM »
Rehagel - would you like to explain the reasons why distributing the natural resources of a nation to it's citizens is a bad idea, instead of just labelling it?

Do you think Cuba's position of poverty has anything to do with the trade embargos?  How would they be affected if they were surrounded by countries with similar systems of government.

I'd be interested to know how those stats have changed in the last ten years, the youth unemployment is comparable to some well established western countries and the points on secondary enrolment and increased undernourishment (?!) are positive, I think.

Offline Parky

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #31 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 03:43:27 PM »
It's not about socialism Rehagel its about common decency and the desire to help our fellow men who are worse of than us if possible.

Offline indi

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #32 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 05:56:24 PM »
Adam

A tourist visit is not a very good way to assess any country.

Organisations that research health and standards of living include the World Health Organisation http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/
and the UN Human Development Reports.
[http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2003/indicator/cty_f_VEN.html

By walking around you won't find out that:
- Youth unemployment is 23%
- 30% Rural and 15% Urban of the pop. don't have access to an improved water source
- 29% of Urban pop. don't have access to improved sanitation
- Immunization against measles has deteriorated to 49%
- Undernourishment of people has increased to 21% from 11%
- Net secondary enrollment ratio has increased from 19% to 50%.
- Venezuela is ranked 69th on the Human Poverty Index, Cuba is ranked 52nd


Quote
Just a point i cant see what you think is wrong with putting countires wealth in to helping the poor, if you think that should go live in texas tbh.


I'm not a Socialist.


Edit: I accessed the report from the WHO and just noticed it's for 2003, they have a recent release...

Most of the above have improved, one has declined.

What are the new figures Rehhagel?

Just out of interest, what would you describe your political views as?

Alan Shearer 9

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #33 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 06:27:43 PM »
neo nazi

Offline Rehhagel

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #34 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 06:33:39 PM »
- Youth unemployment has no figure
- 17% of the pop. don't have access to an improved water source
- 32% of Urban pop. don't have access to improved sanitation
- One-year-olds fully immunized against measles (%), 2003 82%
- Undernourishment of people 17%
- Net secondary enrollment ratio 59%.
- Venezuela is ranked 75th on the Human Poverty Index, Cuba is ranked 52nd

Latest - http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/countries.cfm?c=VEN

HPI = http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indicators.cfm?x=28&y=1&z=1


Alan Shearer 9

Quote
neo nazi


I said I'm not a Socialist.


Offline indi

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #35 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 06:44:59 PM »
- Youth unemployment has no figure
- 17% of the pop. don't have access to an improved water source
- 32% of Urban pop. don't have access to improved sanitation
- One-year-olds fully immunized against measles (%), 2003 82%
- Undernourishment of people 17%
- Net secondary enrollment ratio 59%.
- Venezuela is ranked 75th on the Human Poverty Index, Cuba is ranked 52nd

Latest - http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/countries.cfm?c=VEN

HPI = http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indicators.cfm?x=28&y=1&z=1


Alan Shearer 9

Quote
neo nazi


I said I'm not a Socialist.



Ta.

Does it define what an "improved water source" is?

I guess I could just look myself, really.

Offline Parky

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #36 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 07:15:35 PM »
"neo nazi"..9


He hasn't the charisma. bluebigrazz.gif

Alan Shearer 9

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #37 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 07:17:46 PM »
deja vu man, trippy! (i had to bullshit about charismatic neo-nazis on my last exam)

Offline Adam^

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #38 on: Monday 26 June 2006, 07:52:57 PM »
Yer i cant see that as a tourist but from what i saw things were going up very very quickly. Ive been to delhi i have seent he poverty there and venezuela was far better off, they were doing stuff to improve peoples lives were as india didnt really see anything being done.

Those figures show there is still stuff left to do but do you ahve figures from befor Chavez.

- Youth unemployment has no figure
- 17% of the pop. don't have access to an improved water source
- 32% of Urban pop. don't have access to improved sanitation
- One-year-olds fully immunized against measles (%), 2003 82%
- Undernourishment of people 17%
- Net secondary enrollment ratio 59%.
- Venezuela is ranked 75th on the Human Poverty Index, Cuba is ranked 52nd

Ok lets see youth unemployment, ok fair enough they need more jobs but even in britain we cant just maigc jobs out of the air. Water, saying as a lot of people live in the slums and actually putting amenties in to these places involves demolising the place and put them in. Same with sewage cant exactly just stuck a pipe down the middle of the street. The measles one is pretty high tbh, its a very vast country and immunizing every one year old isnt gonig to be easy. Secondary enrollment guessing thats education, 60% is still good considers this country is an LEDC and lots of people live in slums where getting secondary education isnt as important as surving each day.

Yer you ahve pulled some figures out but the place is on the up. If his schemes fail ok but at least he is trying to do something he is putting the money bakc in to the country. You cant expect and instant fix and the place is huge so so cant improve everything instantly. Yes i was a tourist and i didnt see everything but what i saw made me proud that the people who need help were being helped not just left to die.

Venezuela is a poor country you cant compare it to britain or even places in africa really. You ahve to compare countries in there region and there wealth. The conditions in S.America are differnet to Asia and Africa its easy to grab some numbers but you have to look beyond the numbers and see the peoplel envolved. Things have got better under chavez and thing still need to improve but you cant fix everything over night.

I respect your veiw even thought i find it very hard to understand it. If you belive he is a bad thing ok belive away but having seen these places were people live on nothing I belive he is doing a good thing and shafting the IMF and the big dickheads who live on million in the west is not a bad thing either.

p.s just looked at some of those stats

Literacy
Adult literacy rate (% ages 15 and above), 1990   88.9
Adult literacy rate (% ages 15 and above), 2003   93.0
Youth literacy rate (% ages 15-24), 1990   96.0
Youth literacy rate (% ages 15-24), 2003   97.2

That is one of the things that was targeted quite a substansial rise tbh.

Offline Rob W

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #39 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 10:53:12 AM »
Rehhagel has a point tho (shock!! Horror!!!)

Every time this has been done in the past in Latin America (and Africa) it all looks great for a couple of years and then the s*** hits the fan, the ruling class are discovered to have their fingers in the till, the rule of law goes absent  and the whole place is worse off than when they started

Its happned time after time and its one of the reasons why Latin America is still full of poor people while the Asian countries are moving ahead - instability in the political process is never a good thing
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Offline Adam^

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #40 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 11:32:50 AM »
Well yes in the past it has happened but what make you think it will happen this time ? Yes it has happened time after time but how about you wait and see and dont sterotype him. Yes it could all go to pot, it could all go to pot in the UK but people dont talk about that do they. I doubt that Venezula will be worse off than they started, the rule of law is still in place if people are opposed toChavez they are allowed to be.

I can see why you think that but when there is little to suggest this will happen and judge each country on its own merits instead of a stereotypical  latin america country.

Offline Rob W

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #41 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 11:38:55 AM »
The trouble comes when Chavez (and Blair for example) see things like the democratic process and the law going against them - does he go quietly or does he change the law or worse just ignore it and rule by decree?

And although history does not repeat itself exactly the record of the last 150 years in Latin America is very very discouraging for this sort of thing

Backing Chavez is putting hope against experience I'm sorry to say
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Offline johnnypd

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #42 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 11:39:47 AM »
rob's right. but of course, the same is true of the capitalists in s america who are at the mercy of the imf and world bank. look where they took argentina.

Offline Adam^

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #43 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 02:39:42 PM »
So im wrong for supporting someone who is trying to improve his country and has the bollock to stand up to the US ? Oh and if you had read about him you would know that when parts of the population called a referendum upon on he accepted it and was still voted in, so i dont see him trying to kill off his enemies by any stretch of the imagination.

Hugo Chavez is at the mercy of himself , other countries are tied in to IMF so what happens is really down to him.

Offline BlufPurdi

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #44 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 02:47:38 PM »
The only problem, at the moment, I have with Chavez, is his blatent meddling in other countries' affairs.  It alright having digs at the UK and US, as we have them back, but he's quite clearly trying to dictate to people in other South American countries who and what they should vote for.  That's not on, he should keep to his own country, people might just get off his back, then.
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline Rob W

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #45 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 02:56:14 PM »
So im wrong for supporting someone who is trying to improve his country and has the bollock to stand up to the US ? Oh and if you had read about him you would know that when parts of the population called a referendum upon on he accepted it and was still voted in, so i dont see him trying to kill off his enemies by any stretch of the imagination.

Hugo Chavez is at the mercy of himself , other countries are tied in to IMF so what happens is really down to him.

you could have said the same thing about A Hitler in 1933..................
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Offline Parky

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #46 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 03:50:01 PM »
Silly Rob.

Offline Rob W

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #47 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 04:11:23 PM »
"supporting someone who is trying to improve his country and has the bollock to stand up"

Wikipedia

"A key element of Hitler's appeal was his ability to convey a sense of offended national pride caused by the Treaty of Versailles imposed on the defeated German Empire by the Entente. Germany had lost economically important territory in Europe along with its colonies and in admitting to sole responsibility for the war had agreed to pay a huge reparations bill totaling 32 billion marks. Most Germans bitterly resented these terms"
The rapturous, wild & ineffable pleasure of drinking at someone else's expense

Offline Adam^

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #48 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 05:11:56 PM »
lol compare hitler to chavez, thats a good one. We all know that GB etc let hitler do what he wanted and it wasnt on. Its not like Chavez is trying to claim back parts of brazil is it. I can see your point and he shouldnt influence other countries however USA UK etc all influence other countries so if we can why cant he ? Noone should influence other countries but if the UK is doing it we cant tell him to stop.

Offline Rob W

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Re: An Audience With Hugo Chavez.
« Reply #49 on: Tuesday 27 June 2006, 05:17:13 PM »
It's their country I agree - and if that's what they want  that's their lookout - he may be a financial genius of course or another Lee Kwan Yew in which case it's a good call

But he certainly should sort his own country out before trying to stir the s*** in other peopel's countries

I would suggest that he DOES need to keep an eye out for the CIA - the US Govt has a very long record of interfering in Latin America  - not that its done them a lot of good TBH


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