Topic: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate

[pedro111]

Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

I agree the east stand needs to be knocked down and built again.

The stand behind the goal in the above pic is something like what I'd like to see, very steep.

[Wullie]

is the metro problem the station or the line? if its the station then surely it can go inside SJP?

It won't be the line, it doesn't run that way. As for the station, fill the f***ing thing in and let the lazy b******s walk from Monument.

[Wullie]

The waiting list is bollocks Stevie, it hasn't existed since the ground extension. I got mine at the high point of the Robson era through one call to the box office.

[Stevie]

Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

That's La Bombanera or summik like that, Boca's ground.  It's THE one ground I'd love to go to that I've not seen, I'd love to see Boca v River, it's one game where I very much get the impression that the hype is not only deserved but understated.   The thing with Boca's ground a lot of those steep stands are actually terracing, which is why there are 61000 at Boca some weeks.  If you look at the Mestaella or however you spell it, it looks higher than Canary Wharf but because it's so steep you need railing in every row and the overall capacity is just 49000.

[NE5]

The waiting list is bollocks Stevie, it hasn't existed since the ground extension. I got mine at the high point of the Robson era through one call to the box office.

Utterly terrible that we can't sell 52,000 season tickets. With such a s**** board eh. Where are all these superior directors at other clubs who shift half that amount with no problem ?

Sad and deluded or what.

[Stevie]

Wullie, we could be relegation fodder for years, in my opinion we'd still get 50,000, we have so many people like my dad, who go to half the games, but would go to all if he could get a ticket for every one, and I know so many people who have families and would like to pick and choose their games.  Douglas Hall who is a w***, once said a succesful Newcastle United could average 100,000, I really don't know if that's true but we could EASY get 70-80,000.  EASY.  Another thing Wullie you're saying the height of the Robson reign??? what heights were they then?  coming 3rd and winning f*** all again?

[Wullie]

Wullie, we could be relegation fodder for years, in my opinion we'd still get 50,000, we have so many people like my dad, who go to half the games, but would go to all if he could get a ticket for every one, and I know so many people who have families and would like to pick and choose their games.  Douglas Hall who is a w***, once said a succesful Newcastle United could average 100,000, I really don't know if that's true but we could EASY get 70-80,000.  EASY.  Another thing Wullie you're saying the height of the Robson reign??? what heights were they then?  coming 3rd and winning f*** all again?

I was merely picking up on your comment that we had a pre-Souness waiting list of 10,000, which is just not true.

[Stevie]

Wullie, we could be relegation fodder for years, in my opinion we'd still get 50,000, we have so many people like my dad, who go to half the games, but would go to all if he could get a ticket for every one, and I know so many people who have families and would like to pick and choose their games.  Douglas Hall who is a w***, once said a succesful Newcastle United could average 100,000, I really don't know if that's true but we could EASY get 70-80,000.  EASY.  Another thing Wullie you're saying the height of the Robson reign??? what heights were they then?  coming 3rd and winning **** all again?

I was merely picking up on your comment that we had a pre-Souness waiting list of 10,000, which is just not true.

Fair enough but I will state now, we have the second biggest true fanbase in this country**, and we could get 70,000 no problem at all, none.  The lad who queried that before is from the South of England.

** Willing and able to go to games every week

[Decky]

is the metro problem the station or the line? if its the station then surely it can go inside SJP?

It won't be the line, it doesn't run that way. As for the station, fill the f***ing thing in and let the lazy b******s walk from Monument.

exactly, even Hay Market is pretty close, so thats two. When i go to Newcastle i dont even use the SJP station, its better walking up from Monument or Hay Market with the crowds

[bobjonson]

is the metro problem the station or the line? if its the station then surely it can go inside SJP?

It won't be the line, it doesn't run that way. As for the station, fill the f***ing thing in and let the lazy b******s walk from Monument.

exactly, even Hay Market is pretty close, so thats two. When i go to Newcastle i dont even use the SJP station, its better walking up from Monument or Hay Market with the crowds

As I've said before the Gallowgate end was designed with the option of being able to extend it to level 7 comparitively easily, the Metro has no impact on it, in fact the design for the hotel casino etc incorporates the metro station.  I'll try to find the artisist impressions that were out a while ago.

here's a bit info I found.

From the New Civil Engineer website:
Newcastle United has tabled plans for a huge leisure and shops complex just yards from its St James' Park ground. The multi-million pound development will include a 200-bed hotel and 45 flats.

The rest of the development on land at St James' Metro Station, Gallowgate, would contain a 280-space multi-storey car park, shops, a cinema, nightclub, offices, bars and restaurants.

Newcastle City Council has just received the plans, which would have to go out for public comments before a decision is made by councillors.

Newcastle United owns all the land where the development will take place, apart from one small section owned by the local authority.

Durham-based architects RPS Consultants said the scheme will also take in the car park behind Wellbar House up to Strawberry Lane and down to St Andrews' Place. Technical director David Kershaw said the scheme would cost "tens of millions of pounds" and revealed that the firm had been working on blueprints with the club for two years.

He added: 

"This will be a landmark scheme within Newcastle. It's at the focal point of St James' Boulevard as it turns down towards Gallowgate.

"It will complement the football ground behind it and sit comfortably beside it.

"The football club see this scheme as complementary to their operation as a and the interests of the club." It has been earmarked in a council brief for redevelopment in a bid to breathe new life into the Gallowgate area.

A Newcastle City Council spokeswoman said: 

"The application will have to go out to public consultation so that any objections or support can be received from interested parties."

[bobjonson]

and this

First appeared on Weds 19.11.03 

From the MGM Mirage website:
New Mixed-Use Development to be Built Alongside Football Stadium LAS VEGAS, Nov. 19

MGM Mirage the most respected U.S. based hotel and gaming company, and Newcastle United PLC today announced a 50:50 joint venture agreement to build a major new mixed-use development on a prime site above St. James' Metro Station, which is in the heart of Newcastle's city centre and adjacent to Newcastle United's football stadium.

Newcastle United is one of the leading English Premier League (Soccer) clubs, finishing 3rd and 4th in the Premier League in the past two seasons.

The site will be used to build an exciting new complex, which could house commercial and retail outlets, residential apartments, a hotel, leisure and entertainment facilities and a Las Vegas style casino of approximately 100,000 square feet.

The complex, completion of which is contingent upon timely implementation of proposed gaming law reforms and obtaining required planning approvals, is expected to become a major new landmark for the city.

The 50:50 joint venture involves Newcastle United PLC providing the land and MGM MIRAGE an equity investment together with its unrivalled knowledge and experience in the gaming and leisure industries to lead the development and management of the new complex. The casino would be owned and operated by MGM MIRAGE in facilities leased from the joint venture.

Commenting on the announcement, Terry Lanni, Chairman and CEO of MGM MIRAGE, said: "We have ambitious plans for the UK -- deregulation and taxation levels permitting -- and we are looking at other opportunities across the country to develop casino facilities of varying sizes, including, where market conditions warrant, large scale hotel/casino destination resorts.

Our proposed joint venture with Newcastle United, adjacent to its football stadium, has considerable promise and will contribute to the many positive developments already taking place in the City."

Freddy Shepherd, Chairman of Newcastle United, said: "This is a very exciting opportunity for Newcastle, its people and for Newcastle United Football Club. Situated alongside St. James' Park, we hope that the development will become a focal point for the city of Newcastle, and create a vibrant mixed-use development at the heart of the city. We are delighted to be playing a leading role in the transformation of Newcastle into a city that the people of the North East can be proud of. "

Lloyd C. Nathan, Managing Director of MGM MIRAGE Development, Europe, added: "Through our research, we have been very impressed by the developments that have taken place in Newcastle over the last decade and we are excited at the prospect of contributing to this further. The joint venture complex promises to create a number of significant new opportunities for Newcastle from jobs to leisure activities, as well as tourist attractions. We look forward to working with the City's people and representatives as the project moves forward and to creating a dynamic entertainment and leisure complex."
 

[Howaythelads]

Don't moan when we fall further behind the top teams due to having less revenue than them. Lots less revenue. Remember that you're happy we're at SJP for tradition and sentimental reasons, with all the limitations that brings with it. Keep in mind also that as those other clubs increase their revenue we'll be very dependant upon being lucky with a quality managerial appointment if we're to challenge them. In fact we'll have to find a Wenger MkII, not easy to find, you may agree. Fergie and Mourinho have achieved things at their clubs due to massive financial resources, wouldn't you agree? Good managers yes, but they've had massive financial backing. Wenger is a one-off imo, but that's what we need now.

You have to remember that for the last 5 years or so we have had a huge gate advantage over everyone bar Man U. That advantage does not seem to have helped us.

BTW If it's such a moot point that we didn't move, why did you start the original thread about development plans that never happened?

My understanding of ground extension issues are that teh East Stand can't be built higher because of the listed building behind it. The Gallowgate cannot be built on as the increase in foundations required would impact on the Metro station.

The building of the main stand was  mistake back in 87/88. If it had been built in the car park it would have allowed everything else to be moved too. Too late now. Bad planning by a board lacking in long-term vision.

The inability to get planning permission for Castle Leazes was also a disaster. I think the original plans were for only 42,000 with a design which would allow extensions to be built later. The use of the existing ground for other things, like training pitches and rugby games would have reduced the overall cost. Not really sure why but the board, under Sir John didn't really fight the fight as they probably should have done. There were some strange pressures within the council too. Councillors were told that if it came to a vote then shareholders in the club would not be allowed to vote as it would be a "conflict of interests". As this excluded a huge number of councillors it made it very likely the council would not approve the move. If the club had really wanted it I think they could have easily turned up the pressure and made it impossible for the council to turn them down. Sir John managed that sort of business "negotiation" with the Metro centre, he could have done it again.

As far as costs go, it would have made a huge diffference to our finances. The club pay roughly £4.5m per year for the ground extension, with the final payment due in 2016/2017. The original plan for 42,000 seats would not have created as much increase in revenue but it woudl have cost lots less, and would still have been expandable.

I'm not convinced that much more than 52,000 is needed. It's nice to fantasise about playing Man U in a title deicder in front of 70,000, or sunlun in a derby, but neither are that likely really. The cup games of the last couple of years have shown that the crowds are fragile. Season ticket holders always go, they've paid up so they will go to all the league games. Cup games seem full of dads with kids, and not that many season ticket holders. If we get to the point where people realise they don't need season tickets, and can generally buy tickets on a game by game basis the crowds for C-list games could plummet. If there were, say 35,000 season tickets sold for this season, meaning 14,000 available on a match by match basis how many people would turn up for Reading midweek, or Watford the weekend before Xmas ?

I agree with most of that.

Want to mention the point you made in blue. I haven't overlooked anything, mate. You've overlooked the value of the manager. We were doing ok in comparision to the other top clubs when Robson was manager. We were 4th then 3rd before Robson started to lose it and we slipped to 5th remember. I know we were behind Arsenal, but as has been said many times and I'm sure most will agree, Wenger really is an exceptional manager who can achieve things with slightly lesser resources.

[bobjonson]

From the ATE online site, "the global business portal for the gambling and gaming industry", November 15th 2004:

"Newcastle United will have to return the £5million it received from Las Vegas casino operator MGM Mirage after the Governments proposed cap on super-casinos, between four and ten, makes it highly unlikely that St James’ Park will receive a license. The Government, reacting to adverse opposition to the Gambling Bill, plans to reduce the number of large regional casinos that they will permit to open, and sources in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport indicated that it was unlikely that there would be one opened at Newcastle ."

From the Journal, 1st December 2004:

Newcastle United has been in talks with MGM Mirage about developing a hotel and casino next to the Metro Station but, with the Government's about-turn on unlimited Super Casinos, its future is unclear.

[Howaythelads]

Ridiculous comment, we had a waiting list pre Souness allegedly of well over 10,000 and we achieved **** all, nothing, won **** all.  We've still won **** all and our average gate next season will be no lower then 51,900, yet we still have people like you coming out with bollocks like that, without sounding like a "SUPER FAN" you know in your heart your not from Newcastle.  I have a lot to say I don't want to say it tonight because the way it will probably be construed will get me a ban so I'll say it tomorrow.

howaythelads Grassroots asked you for side elevations, your reply "yes I have many shots of SJP and of the ones you're asking for" why you being a ..... and not showing them then other than to be awkward?

After making the post I dug out the photo's on the CD, but before doing owt with them I read the post again. I didn't post the photo's  because when I  read his post again I noticed he had said, " ideally drawings ". I don't have drawings, I have a couple of photographs I took myself from the old bus station. I doubt it's what he's after.

Thanks for your interest.

[Geordie_krispy]

Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

That's La Bombanera or summik like that, Boca's ground.  It's THE one ground I'd love to go to that I've not seen, I'd love to see Boca v River, it's one game where I very much get the impression that the hype is not only deserved but understated.   The thing with Boca's ground a lot of those steep stands are actually terracing, which is why there are 61000 at Boca some weeks.  If you look at the Mestaella or however you spell it, it looks higher than Canary Wharf but because it's so steep you need railing in every row and the overall capacity is just 49000.

Ahh, that's where it is.  Has anyone else seen that BBC program about Maradonna, hosted by Lineker.  He goes over there and has a chat to him, and whatever, the last 5-10 mins of the program are Maradonna and his family/cronies and Lineker watching a Boca game.  They are boxes on the left, there's a single bar across the width with a plexiscreen below, and a kind of bench to sit on.  Lineker's just kind of looking bewildered and Maradonna is jumping up and down like a chimp in the zoo, with someone holding his waist and facing away from the game, to make sure he doesn't fall out of the thing!    But you can litererally just lean out and say hi to the people around you, and they're partitioned inbetween with a glass door so you could in essence see all the way along the row.

From the views on the program the seem about 3m wide, 2m deep and about 1.5/2m high.  Now saying that, you couldn't really get many seats in them, so unless they were to be coporate boxes it's not really feasable, but if they were glass on both sides they'd look pretty nice and would not block that much light, just the direct stuff.  Anyway, just thought i'd mention it.  And it's still technically on topic before someone starts flaming!  :winking:

[HTT]

To continue any debate about whether the board are s**** or not, follow this link: http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php/topic,24529.0.html

KEEP ALL POSTS OF THAT NATURE OUT OF THIS THREAD, PLEASE!

This thread exists only to discuss past stadium proposals and future stadium proposals only, and not the successes and failures of the board, Freddy Shepherd or any of that s****.

[HTT]

Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

I agree the east stand needs to be knocked down and built again.

The stand behind the goal in the above pic is something like what I'd like to see, very steep.

Aye, being steep where the tiers overlap, I think that type of scenario seems to be the best option for the East Stand. I've seen photos of that stand from the back and it's quite slim, in fact most of the stadium is, I doubt it's like a city inside unlike wor stadium.

Crazy how the Argie stand pictured is all standing mind, must be amazing when cheering a goal up there... and dangerous!

[HTT]

3 tier stands that don't back out like the Milburn or Leazes:

Stade de Sclessin





Not as tall as SJP but those stands show, great height can be achieved with overlapping tiers at steep angles. An extra one would give you the height of the Milburn.

The smaller stand looks quite similar to the old Milburn Stand so that stadium is a good example.

[Stevie]

3 tier stands that don't back out like the Milburn or Leazes:

Stade de Sclessin





Not as tall as SJP but those stands show, great height can be achieved with overlapping tiers at steep angles. An extra one would give you the height of the Milburn.

The smaller stand looks quite similar to the old Milburn Stand so that stadium is a good example.

I've been outside that stadium, it looks huge and imposing but it only seats 29,000.