Topic: Hall to sell shares?

[Baggio]

It was not clear this weekend whether Polygon has already made an approach to Sir John.

If they had then wouldn't Sir John have to announce to the stock exchange that he's been approached about a possible takeover?

I think he would, he did last season.

That's what I was thinking, if there's any truth in the story then we can expect to hear more in the morning.

[indi]

It was not clear this weekend whether Polygon has already made an approach to Sir John.

If they had then wouldn't Sir John have to announce to the stock exchange that he's been approached about a possible takeover?

Only if a bid was made (I think), they can talk about it without informing the LSE, so long as a bid isn't made, anyway he couldn't tell them until 9am tomorrow morning, so a bid could have been made over the weekend.

[Mick]

Macbeth you missed one option off your list and it's the one I think is most likely:

They probably believe the club is undervalued by the market, which in a way it is - the share price is very low - so they're probably thinking they could buy the club, tart it up a bit and then sell it on at a profit.

There's two points to be made here:

The first is that one of the main reasons the club's market valuation is so low is because the city doesn't like the way the club is run, so they don't invest. If the club were to be run by someone else who the city liked then the share price would probably rise after a while.

The second is that it's pretty obvious that anyone looking to buy the club would have to pay well over the market price to do so. If the Halls and Shepherds ask for too high a price then this interest will simply go away because, as I said above, hedge funds are only interested in profits, either quick or big ones as well. I can't see them making a big profit, so I think they're after a quick one, here.

This is the only motivation that makes any sense to me, considering they're a hedge fund and not a private or organisational investor.

That is if they're investing on their own behalf, they might be investing on someone else's and just acting as agents.

I think that it would depend on who was trying to buy the club, if it was a fans trust as mentioned above then it would go cheaper.  Sir John and Shepherd wouldn't have the balls to rip off the people they said they were running the club for.

If fans came up with the cash then I think both the Hall's and Shepherd's would have to go cheaply as they've both taken out more than they've put in while trying to come across as fans.

[indi]

I think that it would depend on who was trying to buy the club, if it was a fans trust as mentioned above then it would go cheaper.  Sir John and Shepherd wouldn't have the balls to rip off the people they said they were running the club for.

If fans came up with the cash then I think both the Hall's and Shepherd's would have to go cheaply as they've both taken out more than they've put in while trying to come across as fans.

But sadly that's not going to happen though.

[Mick]

I think that it would depend on who was trying to buy the club, if it was a fans trust as mentioned above then it would go cheaper.  Sir John and Shepherd wouldn't have the balls to rip off the people they said they were running the club for.

If fans came up with the cash then I think both the Hall's and Shepherd's would have to go cheaply as they've both taken out more than they've put in while trying to come across as fans.

But sadly that's not going to happen though.

It's very unlikely.

[Baggio]

It was not clear this weekend whether Polygon has already made an approach to Sir John.

If they had then wouldn't Sir John have to announce to the stock exchange that he's been approached about a possible takeover?

Only if a bid was made (I think), they can talk about it without informing the LSE, so long as a bid isn't made, anyway he couldn't tell them until 9am tomorrow morning, so a bid could have been made over the weekend.

I've just dug this up from the previous takeover talk...

Date: 27.07.05

Speculation has mounted that Newcastle United may become the next Premier League takeover target after former chairman Sir John Hall was approached about selling his share in the club.

In a declaration to the stock market, Sir John Hall confirmed an unnamed party had expressed an interest in buying his majority stake, estimated at 28.5 per cent of the club.

Hall’s announcement followed an 18 per cent rise in Newcastle United's share price on Monday as investors contemplated the Toon could follow Manchester United as the next English Premier League club to be taken over.

Newcastle United shares are now at their highest level in over four years, subsequently valuing the club at £75.6 million, up by over £10 million from Monday morning.

Sir John revealed the stake holder approach in response to press reports that two groups of businessmen were interested in his stake.

The first consortium leading the chase for Sir John’s stake are a Malaysian-based group who are keen on developing existing plans to accommodate a casino and leisure complex at St James’ Park – the stadium where Newcastle United play their home games.

The other group are, according to the Daily Express, led by a “cash rich British entrepreneur” who wants to bring back Kevin Keegan to the club in a senior role. Sir John was an instrumental playing bringing Keegan to Newcastle in 1992 as manager; where he went on to take Newcastle into Europe and 2nd in the Premiership.

Freddy Shepherd, the Newcastle chairman and also 2nd largest stakeholder in the club, currently owns 27 per cent of all shares. It is considered that any takeover deal will need Shepherd’s blessing.

Newcastle takeover speculation comes just two months after Manchester United were taken over by US tycoon Malcolm Glazer for £790 million.

Elsewhere, Premier League team Aston Villa are also the centre of a takeover attempt by former Man City defender Ray Branson, who is now making his second attempt to buy the club after the original £30 million offer was rejected by Villa chairman Doug Ellis last year.

[indi]

It was not clear this weekend whether Polygon has already made an approach to Sir John.

If they had then wouldn't Sir John have to announce to the stock exchange that he's been approached about a possible takeover?

Only if a bid was made (I think), they can talk about it without informing the LSE, so long as a bid isn't made, anyway he couldn't tell them until 9am tomorrow morning, so a bid could have been made over the weekend.

I've just dug this up from the previous takeover talk...

Date: 27.07.05

Speculation has mounted that Newcastle United may become the next Premier League takeover target after former chairman Sir John Hall was approached about selling his share in the club.

In a declaration to the stock market, Sir John Hall confirmed an unnamed party had expressed an interest in buying his majority stake, estimated at 28.5 per cent of the club.

Hall’s announcement followed an 18 per cent rise in Newcastle United's share price on Monday as investors contemplated the Toon could follow Manchester United as the next English Premier League club to be taken over.

Newcastle United shares are now at their highest level in over four years, subsequently valuing the club at £75.6 million, up by over £10 million from Monday morning.

Sir John revealed the stake holder approach in response to press reports that two groups of businessmen were interested in his stake.

The first consortium leading the chase for Sir John’s stake are a Malaysian-based group who are keen on developing existing plans to accommodate a casino and leisure complex at St James’ Park – the stadium where Newcastle United play their home games.

The other group are, according to the Daily Express, led by a “cash rich British entrepreneur” who wants to bring back Kevin Keegan to the club in a senior role. Sir John was an instrumental playing bringing Keegan to Newcastle in 1992 as manager; where he went on to take Newcastle into Europe and 2nd in the Premiership.

Freddy Shepherd, the Newcastle chairman and also 2nd largest stakeholder in the club, currently owns 27 per cent of all shares. It is considered that any takeover deal will need Shepherd’s blessing.

Newcastle takeover speculation comes just two months after Manchester United were taken over by US tycoon Malcolm Glazer for £790 million.

Elsewhere, Premier League team Aston Villa are also the centre of a takeover attempt by former Man City defender Ray Branson, who is now making his second attempt to buy the club after the original £30 million offer was rejected by Villa chairman Doug Ellis last year.

I'm not sure he had to say anything though, I think he only said it because of all the rumours and trading going on. They could have been talking for ages before that.

[NE5]

And, do you think this final option is the one they are likely to take ?

Why?

what ?

It's a question. Do YOU think this final option might be the one they take ?

[Mick]

And, do you think this final option is the one they are likely to take ?

Why?

what ?

It's a question. Do YOU think this final option might be the one they take ?

It's possible that the last option is the one that they would take, again, why do you ask?

[Baggio]

Wasn't it suggested somewhere that Freddie and the Hall's had an understanding that if either of them wanted to sell then the other would have first refusal?

I think if anyone is going to buy the club out it'll be Freddie Shepherd.

[indi]

Wasn't it suggested somewhere that Freddie and the Hall's had an understanding that if either of them wanted to sell then the other would have first refusal?

I think if anyone is going to buy the club out it'll be Freddie Shepherd.

Don't think he could afford it, even at market value.

[NE5]

And, do you think this final option is the one they are likely to take ?

Why?

what ?

It's a question. Do YOU think this final option might be the one they take ?

It's possible that the last option is the one that they would take, again, why do you ask?

because I'm curious for his opinion. Why do you think I asked ?

[macbeth]

It's a pity the fans couldn't get together and stump up a grand each, if every person who attended on match day did that then the fans could own the club.

It's interesting that the figure given of £3 million is £10 million less than they've taken out, they could give the shares away and would have still made a massive profit.

The Halls sold 16m of their shares back to the club in 2003 for £4.5m

The Halls dividends since the club became a PLC total £13.7m

The Halls currently own 55.3m shares, worth roughly £25m at the current market price.

All figures taken from Newcastle United Accounts published 1998-2006.

And ?

dunno, that was all I wanted to add to what Mick had said. He suggested the £3m Hall investment had brought them in £13m, whereas the club accounts show a total of £18.2m including the share buy-back. I know you approve of only facts being given, so that's what I did.

If this hasn't answered you "And?" question then I'm sorry it is often difficult to try and guess what you're on about.

But ?

[macbeth]

Macbeth you missed one option off your list and it's the one I think is most likely:

They probably believe the club is undervalued by the market, which in a way it is - the share price is very low - so they're probably thinking they could buy the club, tart it up a bit and then sell it on at a profit.

Sorry, yes, I forgot to mention that one ! The problem with that scenario is the belief that there would be a second buyer waliting in the wings when we haven't seen one yet. It would make sense if the team could get into the CL, and gain a bigger brand image. Apart from that I'm not sure what other tarting up could be done.

There's two points to be made here:

The first is that one of the main reasons the club's market valuation is so low is because the city doesn't like the way the club is run, so they don't invest. If the club were to be run by someone else who the city liked then the share price would probably rise after a while.



The second is that it's pretty obvious that anyone looking to buy the club would have to pay well over the market price to do so. If the Halls and Shepherds ask for too high a price then this interest will simply go away because, as I said above, hedge funds are only interested in profits, either quick or big ones as well. I can't see them making a big profit, so I think they're after a quick one, here.

Really depends on the Halls personal financial situation. The Cameron Hall accounts were in a right mess which was why they had to sell the shares back to the club in 2003. There was an allegation going around that the reported approach to Sir John last summer was done to boost the share price at a time when the NUFC shares were the only asset owned by Cameron Hall. Cameron Hall has made financial commitments against their assets and were going to default a the value of the assets were low. Boosting the share price made their assets cover their commitments and bought them more time. If there is still a financial problem they may well sell the shares at a discount to just shift them, and pay off debts. The shares are in the Cameron Hall books as having cost just under 11p each, so even selling for around the current market price would give a 300% return  :winking:   53m shares would give about a further £18m profit.

This is the only motivation that makes any sense to me, considering they're a hedge fund and not a private or organisational investor.

That is if they're investing on their own behalf, they might be investing on someone else's and just acting as agents.

[NE5]

It's a pity the fans couldn't get together and stump up a grand each, if every person who attended on match day did that then the fans could own the club.

It's interesting that the figure given of £3 million is £10 million less than they've taken out, they could give the shares away and would have still made a massive profit.

The Halls sold 16m of their shares back to the club in 2003 for £4.5m

The Halls dividends since the club became a PLC total £13.7m

The Halls currently own 55.3m shares, worth roughly £25m at the current market price.

All figures taken from Newcastle United Accounts published 1998-2006.

And ?

dunno, that was all I wanted to add to what Mick had said. He suggested the £3m Hall investment had brought them in £13m, whereas the club accounts show a total of £18.2m including the share buy-back. I know you approve of only facts being given, so that's what I did.

If this hasn't answered you "And?" question then I'm sorry it is often difficult to try and guess what you're on about.

But ?

But ?

As i said to Mick, I am just curious as to what you think - or hope -  will happen

[Matt]

Like some, I cannot see the attraction of NUFC, which at best is a break-even company in the medium-to-long term (not many football clubs make money).

Unless of course, they plan something far more drastic.

Four words that should send a warning to those who think this investment would be a good thing- "sale and lease back".

[Mick]

But ?

As i said to Mick, I am just curious as to what you think - or hope -  will happen

Think and hope are two different things, I'd hope that the fans would buy into the club and own it, if that happened then it would be the end of dividends and would see somebody appointed who was answerable for performance.

All money coming into the club would then be used for the benefit of the club, to the benefit of the team.

As for think, anything could happen.

[NE5]

But ?

As i said to Mick, I am just curious as to what you think - or hope -  will happen

Think and hope are two different things, I'd hope that the fans would buy into the club and own it, if that happened then it would be the end of dividends and would see somebody appointed who was answerable for performance.

All money coming into the club would then be used for the benefit of the club, to the benefit of the team.

As for think, anything could happen.

eerrr.....Hall and Shepherd bought into the club as "fans of the club". And very welcome they were at the time too.

As you should know.

[NE5]

Like some, I cannot see the attraction of NUFC, which at best is a break-even company in the medium-to-long term (not many football clubs make money).

Unless of course, they plan something far more drastic.

Four words that should send a warning to those who think this investment would be a good thing- "sale and lease back".

Exactly.

Two phrases should also give food for thought

"the grass is always greener"

"be careful what you wish for"

[Mick]

But ?

As i said to Mick, I am just curious as to what you think - or hope -  will happen

Think and hope are two different things, I'd hope that the fans would buy into the club and own it, if that happened then it would be the end of dividends and would see somebody appointed who was answerable for performance.

All money coming into the club would then be used for the benefit of the club, to the benefit of the team.

As for think, anything could happen.

eerrr.....Hall and Shepherd bought into the club as "fans of the club". And very welcome they were at the time too.

As you should know.

And they/Sir John started off doing a good job, unlike now.

The club is now the cash cow for both families and it would appear that at least one family is going to make even more money to the downfall of the club they've all claimed they love, claims which now seem to have been lies, it's money they appear to love, not the club.

[Mick]

Like some, I cannot see the attraction of NUFC, which at best is a break-even company in the medium-to-long term (not many football clubs make money).

Unless of course, they plan something far more drastic.

Four words that should send a warning to those who think this investment would be a good thing- "sale and lease back".

Exactly.

Two phrases should also give food for thought

"the grass is always greener"

"be careful what you wish for"

It doesn't matter what we wish for, the people in power are the only ones whose opinions matter.

If this goes tits up then it's them to blame, nobody else.

[NE5]

Like some, I cannot see the attraction of NUFC, which at best is a break-even company in the medium-to-long term (not many football clubs make money).

Unless of course, they plan something far more drastic.

Four words that should send a warning to those who think this investment would be a good thing- "sale and lease back".

Exactly.

Two phrases should also give food for thought

"the grass is always greener"

"be careful what you wish for"

It doesn't matter what we wish for, the people in power are the only ones whose opinions matter.

If this goes tits up then it's them to blame, nobody else.

what are you babbling on about ? Why do you think they should put the club before their own personal interest ?

Actually, if a bid was made, and this doesn't happen, will you applaud the fact that they have put the club before their personal interest ? Somehow, I doubt it.

I am aware of the pitfalls, how well they have done, and where our current standing is, you're the one who wants them out because you think they are s***, and infer almost anyone would be better.

[Mick]

what are you babbling on about ? Why do you think they should put the club before their own personal interest ?

Actually, if a bid was made, and this doesn't happen, will you applaud the fact that they have put the club before their personal interest ? Somehow, I doubt it.

I am aware of the pitfalls, how well they have done, and where our current standing is, you're the one who wants them out because you think they are s***, and infer almost anyone would be better.

Why do I think they should put the club before their own aims?

It's easy really, that's what they said they got involved in the club for, they claim they are supporters and they are the ones who have taken vast sums out of the club while claiming only to be fans.

They have set themselves up as something they don't appear to be, if they get stick for that then they're reaping what they've sown.  Are you blind and deaf to what they say and do?

If this bid is turned down then I'll think that they weren't offered enough money and they'd rather stay and take money out annually through dividends and salaries which have rocketed while the club has gone backwards.  I don't think the good of the club enters into it, I think the good of the bank accounts of those in charge comes first and always will.

I want them out because they've turned this club into a laughing stock and they're taking the club backwards, I don't think just anybody coming in would improve things and I'm sure you'll now back up what you've said with a link, I'll not be holding my breath.

If they sell up to this group of people, who is to blame if it goes tits up?

[Dragon55544]

what are you babbling on about ? Why do you think they should put the club before their own personal interest ?

Actually, if a bid was made, and this doesn't happen, will you applaud the fact that they have put the club before their personal interest ? Somehow, I doubt it.

I am aware of the pitfalls, how well they have done, and where our current standing is, you're the one who wants them out because you think they are s***, and infer almost anyone would be better.

Why do I think they should put the club before their own aims?

It's easy really, that's what they said they got involved in the club for, they claim they are supporters and they are the ones who have taken vast sums out of the club while claiming only to be fans.

They have set themselves up as something they don't appear to be, if they get stick for that then they're reaping what they've sown.  Are you blind and deaf to what they say and do?

If this bid is turned down then I'll think that they weren't offered enough money and they'd rather stay and take money out annually through dividends and salaries which have rocketed while the club has gone backwards.  I don't think the good of the club enters into it, I think the good of the bank accounts of those in charge comes first and always will.

I want them out because they've turned this club into a laughing stock and they're taking the club backwards, I don't think just anybody coming in would improve things and I'm sure you'll now back up what you've said with a link, I'll not be holding my breath.

If they sell up to this group of people, who is to blame if it goes tits up?

Seems to me Mick you aint happy because they get paid, Do you think if the club gets sold that the buyer wont take money out?

[NE5]

what are you babbling on about ? Why do you think they should put the club before their own personal interest ?

Actually, if a bid was made, and this doesn't happen, will you applaud the fact that they have put the club before their personal interest ? Somehow, I doubt it.

I am aware of the pitfalls, how well they have done, and where our current standing is, you're the one who wants them out because you think they are s***, and infer almost anyone would be better.

Why do I think they should put the club before their own aims?

It's easy really, that's what they said they got involved in the club for, they claim they are supporters and they are the ones who have taken vast sums out of the club while claiming only to be fans.

They have set themselves up as something they don't appear to be, if they get stick for that then they're reaping what they've sown.  Are you blind and deaf to what they say and do?

If this bid is turned down then I'll think that they weren't offered enough money and they'd rather stay and take money out annually through dividends and salaries which have rocketed while the club has gone backwards.  I don't think the good of the club enters into it, I think the good of the bank accounts of those in charge comes first and always will.

I want them out because they've turned this club into a laughing stock and they're taking the club backwards, I don't think just anybody coming in would improve things and I'm sure you'll now back up what you've said with a link, I'll not be holding my breath.

If they sell up to this group of people, who is to blame if it goes tits up?

You have lost the plot Mick. You can't expect them to work for nothing. The club has gone forwards, very much so, since 1992. We are the 5th best club in the country in the last decade. You can't call that "going backwards" unless you think every club has a divine right to stay 2nd in the league. This is deluded, and I have pointed out many clubs in the past who also have fell from far greater heights. This is the reality of football. From a business perspective, building a new training complex and expanding the stadium, is very much a major development that has moved the club forward.

The very fact that you expect so much from the club, shows they have succeeded massively in raising expectations. Not understanding this, is the sort of comment that leads me to think you didn't support the club in the 70's and 80's like you say you did.

People are in anything for money. Welcome to the real world. If they sell up, why would you blame them ? I could say - blame people like yourself who give them flak and those who booed at the testimonial. This offer, rumour, or whatever it is, is a wake up call to those who think that we will automatically replace them with someone better.