Author Topic: UK Politics - Generation Tory  (Read 122186 times)

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Offline Thomson Mouse

  • General Member
  • Perth, Western Australia
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #450 on: Thursday 16 January 2020, 03:25:59 PM »
Matt Hancock's come up with a brilliant idea to stop the NHS missing their waiting time targets: scrap the targets. :thup:


I’ve seen the interview. The clinician targets is complete s****.

If they remove the 4 hour waiting time then you can kiss goodbye to the NHS.

Interesting that he’s talking about same day bullshit, complete distraction
People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people.

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #451 on: Thursday 16 January 2020, 05:05:53 PM »
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/why-left-keeps-losing

Good read that, if a bit depressing. To the joy of most of the country Labour are f***ed for a long while yet. The only question is how much Boris' blues choose to punish them and their voters.

I disagree, Johnson became unpopular down in the capital because you could see his failures everywhere. Hopefully the same will happen on a national level.


Voters are going to admit they're wrong in probably the most tribal time in UK and world politics? Good luck with that.
I thought the Tories sweeping gains in the North put paid to tribalism ?
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline Disco

  • General Member
  • Newcastle
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #452 on: Thursday 16 January 2020, 05:32:51 PM »
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/why-left-keeps-losing

Good read that, if a bit depressing. To the joy of most of the country Labour are f***ed for a long while yet. The only question is how much Boris' blues choose to punish them and their voters.

I disagree, Johnson became unpopular down in the capital because you could see his failures everywhere. Hopefully the same will happen on a national level.


Voters are going to admit they're wrong in probably the most tribal time in UK and world politics? Good luck with that.
I thought the Tories sweeping gains in the North put paid to tribalism ?

It signalled the conclusion of old tribalism based on Thatcher and unleashed a new wave based on Brexit, nationalism and austerity.

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #453 on: Thursday 16 January 2020, 07:48:37 PM »
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/why-left-keeps-losing

Good read that, if a bit depressing. To the joy of most of the country Labour are f***ed for a long while yet. The only question is how much Boris' blues choose to punish them and their voters.

I disagree, Johnson became unpopular down in the capital because you could see his failures everywhere. Hopefully the same will happen on a national level.


Voters are going to admit they're wrong in probably the most tribal time in UK and world politics? Good luck with that.
I thought the Tories sweeping gains in the North put paid to tribalism ?

It signalled the conclusion of old tribalism based on Thatcher and unleashed a new wave based on Brexit, nationalism and austerity.
I wouldn't say austerity, they think leaving the EU will end austerity because we'll have a fantastic economy because we are Brits and world leaders at everything. If and when this doeant happen their lent votes to the Tories may end..... probably to be swept up by an ever more populist bulls hitter. However I think one election isn't enough to declare a new tribalism.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline kingkerouac

  • General Member
  • London, UK
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #454 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 07:29:33 AM »
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/why-left-keeps-losing

Good read that, if a bit depressing. To the joy of most of the country Labour are f***ed for a long while yet. The only question is how much Boris' blues choose to punish them and their voters.

I disagree, Johnson became unpopular down in the capital because you could see his failures everywhere. Hopefully the same will happen on a national level.


Voters are going to admit they're wrong in probably the most tribal time in UK and world politics? Good luck with that.
I thought the Tories sweeping gains in the North put paid to tribalism ?

It signalled the conclusion of old tribalism based on Thatcher and unleashed a new wave based on Brexit, nationalism and austerity.
I wouldn't say austerity, they think leaving the EU will end austerity because we'll have a fantastic economy because we are Brits and world leaders at everything. If and when this doeant happen their lent votes to the Tories may end..... probably to be swept up by an ever more populist bulls hitter. However I think one election isn't enough to declare a new tribalism.

Agreed. It was Brexit Wot Wun It.

Offline Decky

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #455 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 07:35:51 AM »
Labour will obviously go for Long-Bailey. They'll be pressurised into their first female leader. Hopefully Starmer hangs about for the leadership in 5 years again.
Steve Bruce, liar, s*** manager and general prick.

Online mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #456 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 08:34:56 AM »
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/why-left-keeps-losing

Good read that, if a bit depressing. To the joy of most of the country Labour are f***ed for a long while yet. The only question is how much Boris' blues choose to punish them and their voters.

I disagree, Johnson became unpopular down in the capital because you could see his failures everywhere. Hopefully the same will happen on a national level.


Voters are going to admit they're wrong in probably the most tribal time in UK and world politics? Good luck with that.
I thought the Tories sweeping gains in the North put paid to tribalism ?

It signalled the conclusion of old tribalism based on Thatcher and unleashed a new wave based on Brexit, nationalism and austerity.
I wouldn't say austerity, they think leaving the EU will end austerity because we'll have a fantastic economy because we are Brits and world leaders at everything. If and when this doeant happen their lent votes to the Tories may end..... probably to be swept up by an ever more populist bulls hitter. However I think one election isn't enough to declare a new tribalism.

Agreed. It was Brexit Wot Wun It.

it was, but we also can't ignore the devastating effect that the indyref has wrought on labour's chances of ever getting elected again as well, they're fighting a losing battle and it's very hard to see how the can recover scotland in sufficient numbers to make any difference
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #457 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 11:53:45 AM »
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/why-left-keeps-losing

Good read that, if a bit depressing. To the joy of most of the country Labour are f***ed for a long while yet. The only question is how much Boris' blues choose to punish them and their voters.

I disagree, Johnson became unpopular down in the capital because you could see his failures everywhere. Hopefully the same will happen on a national level.


Voters are going to admit they're wrong in probably the most tribal time in UK and world politics? Good luck with that.
I thought the Tories sweeping gains in the North put paid to tribalism ?

It signalled the conclusion of old tribalism based on Thatcher and unleashed a new wave based on Brexit, nationalism and austerity.
I wouldn't say austerity, they think leaving the EU will end austerity because we'll have a fantastic economy because we are Brits and world leaders at everything. If and when this doeant happen their lent votes to the Tories may end..... probably to be swept up by an ever more populist bulls hitter. However I think one election isn't enough to declare a new tribalism.

Agreed. It was Brexit Wot Wun It.

it was, but we also can't ignore the devastating effect that the indyref has wrought on labour's chances of ever getting elected again as well, they're fighting a losing battle and it's very hard to see how the can recover scotland in sufficient numbers to make any difference
Wasnt even so much Brexit as Labours complete inability to get its position across, which they do regularly across many policy areas

On that though, Labours position throughout the whole brexit debacle has been confusing and all over the place from backing the referendum bill in the first place to triggering article 50. No wonder their position seems confused.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline Papavasiliou

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #458 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 11:56:43 AM »
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/why-left-keeps-losing

Good read that, if a bit depressing. To the joy of most of the country Labour are f***ed for a long while yet. The only question is how much Boris' blues choose to punish them and their voters.

I disagree, Johnson became unpopular down in the capital because you could see his failures everywhere. Hopefully the same will happen on a national level.


Voters are going to admit they're wrong in probably the most tribal time in UK and world politics? Good luck with that.
I thought the Tories sweeping gains in the North put paid to tribalism ?

It signalled the conclusion of old tribalism based on Thatcher and unleashed a new wave based on Brexit, nationalism and austerity.
I wouldn't say austerity, they think leaving the EU will end austerity because we'll have a fantastic economy because we are Brits and world leaders at everything. If and when this doeant happen their lent votes to the Tories may end..... probably to be swept up by an ever more populist bulls hitter. However I think one election isn't enough to declare a new tribalism.

Agreed. It was Brexit Wot Wun It.

it was, but we also can't ignore the devastating effect that the indyref has wrought on labour's chances of ever getting elected again as well, they're fighting a losing battle and it's very hard to see how the can recover scotland in sufficient numbers to make any difference
Wasnt even so much Brexit as Labours complete inability to get its position across, which they do regularly across many policy areas

Is that really Labour's fault though? They explained their position loads of times but for the most part the media just ignored them so they could keep up the narrative.

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #459 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 12:00:56 PM »
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/why-left-keeps-losing

Good read that, if a bit depressing. To the joy of most of the country Labour are f***ed for a long while yet. The only question is how much Boris' blues choose to punish them and their voters.

I disagree, Johnson became unpopular down in the capital because you could see his failures everywhere. Hopefully the same will happen on a national level.


Voters are going to admit they're wrong in probably the most tribal time in UK and world politics? Good luck with that.
I thought the Tories sweeping gains in the North put paid to tribalism ?

It signalled the conclusion of old tribalism based on Thatcher and unleashed a new wave based on Brexit, nationalism and austerity.
I wouldn't say austerity, they think leaving the EU will end austerity because we'll have a fantastic economy because we are Brits and world leaders at everything. If and when this doeant happen their lent votes to the Tories may end..... probably to be swept up by an ever more populist bulls hitter. However I think one election isn't enough to declare a new tribalism.

Agreed. It was Brexit Wot Wun It.

it was, but we also can't ignore the devastating effect that the indyref has wrought on labour's chances of ever getting elected again as well, they're fighting a losing battle and it's very hard to see how the can recover scotland in sufficient numbers to make any difference
Wasnt even so much Brexit as Labours complete inability to get its position across, which they do regularly across many policy areas

Is that really Labour's fault though? They explained their position loads of times but for the most part the media just ignored them so they could keep up the narrative.
Using this place as an example, even on here people were saying about Labours position not being clear and that wasnt the media fault.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #460 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 12:05:39 PM »
If you want to blame the media then dont bother fighting the next election as it ain't going to change. Even on live programmes the Labour representative allowed themselves to be bullied and were even sometimes complicit in the narrative (the crash was Labours fault etc). The message too often opaque and scatter gun and lacked passion, I heard better and more convincing arguments in our mess room than were made by many Labour reps. From what I saw only Barry Gardiner put up much of a fight.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline Disco

  • General Member
  • Newcastle
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #461 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 12:11:00 PM »
It's not just Brexit like. They're a toxic brand with many toxic figures and views that mask ones that people like. They're also flying in the face of an ever growing nationalist and populist nation that loves nothing more than getting one over on their perceived opponent or enemy that ideally makes their life worse as a direct result regardless of what the outcome is for their own victorious situation.

How they resolve this is anyone's guess but it's going to be a long old road.

Offline Wullie

  • Administrator
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #462 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 12:12:58 PM »
Retail figures plunged in December. If only there were some sort of mass consumer event that month that could have improved things.
Jeff's Garage - Cheaper than some other garages.

Online Smal

  • General Member
  • Leeds/York
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #463 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 12:53:54 PM »
Retail figures plunged in December. If only there were some sort of mass consumer event that month that could have improved things.

Brexit has had an effect, but High Street retail has shot itself in the face trying to get involved with Black Friday.

Heavy discounting and making low margins (or, as I see often in the bicycle industry, no margin at all) on sales during what should be the busiest and most profitable time of the year is a recipe for disaster. Long term, it's helped to create a culture now where people expect discounts all year round and they will just wait until what they want inevitably goes on sale. There's a race to the bottom and High Street retail is f***ed for the time being.

I'd like to see an online sales tax brought in. Something that the likes of Amazon can't avoid paying would be good.

Offline Disco

  • General Member
  • Newcastle
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #464 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 01:21:15 PM »
Can't see that ever happening or being able to be implemented without it just being bypassed by multinationals and further hitting UK companies.

Unfortunately when it boils down to it, not many people really care about retail jobs so long as they're still getting the goods they want for a cheap price. It's mainly women and younger people too, something that doesn't help. Compare say to the uproar when a manufacturer or service provider goes to the wall there's way more outcry.

Online mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #465 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 01:53:48 PM »
If you want to blame the media then dont bother fighting the next election as it ain't going to change. Even on live programmes the Labour representative allowed themselves to be bullied and were even sometimes complicit in the narrative (the crash was Labours fault etc). The message too often opaque and scatter gun and lacked passion, I heard better and more convincing arguments in our mess room than were made by many Labour reps. From what I saw only Barry Gardiner put up much of a fight.

For me they need to go on the attack the moment the next leader is confirmed. At any time, during any interview with whoever if lies or mistruths are told they need to drill down on it until they get an acceptance of what happened. Don't allow things to move on.

The last few years has proven that repetition works on people, if they see 5 years of labour relentlessly calling out bullshit they'll get it.

We can't appease these people any more, it doesn't work.
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline SEMTEX

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #466 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 02:09:08 PM »
I'd like to see an online sales tax brought in.

:lol: I'm sure that'd be a very popular move. Maybe Labour could lead with it for their 2025 manifesto.

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #467 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 02:23:52 PM »
If you want to blame the media then dont bother fighting the next election as it ain't going to change. Even on live programmes the Labour representative allowed themselves to be bullied and were even sometimes complicit in the narrative (the crash was Labours fault etc). The message too often opaque and scatter gun and lacked passion, I heard better and more convincing arguments in our mess room than were made by many Labour reps. From what I saw only Barry Gardiner put up much of a fight.

For me they need to go on the attack the moment the next leader is confirmed. At any time, during any interview with whoever if lies or mistruths are told they need to drill down on it until they get an acceptance of what happened. Don't allow things to move on.

The last few years has proven that repetition works on people, if they see 5 years of labour relentlessly calling out bullshit they'll get it.

We can't appease these people any more, it doesn't work.
Couldnt agree more. Also use simple tactics with presenters ie dont but in on others then ask the presenter/moderator "are you going to stop this that's the third time you e allowed them to to shout all over others" it works on the presenter and those watching and starts getting others to do what you say. (Like a referee walking away then telling a player to come to them, it breeds compliance)
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Online mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #468 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 03:28:04 PM »
If you want to blame the media then dont bother fighting the next election as it ain't going to change. Even on live programmes the Labour representative allowed themselves to be bullied and were even sometimes complicit in the narrative (the crash was Labours fault etc). The message too often opaque and scatter gun and lacked passion, I heard better and more convincing arguments in our mess room than were made by many Labour reps. From what I saw only Barry Gardiner put up much of a fight.

For me they need to go on the attack the moment the next leader is confirmed. At any time, during any interview with whoever if lies or mistruths are told they need to drill down on it until they get an acceptance of what happened. Don't allow things to move on.

The last few years has proven that repetition works on people, if they see 5 years of labour relentlessly calling out bullshit they'll get it.

We can't appease these people any more, it doesn't work.
Couldnt agree more. Also use simple tactics with presenters ie dont but in on others then ask the presenter/moderator "are you going to stop this that's the third time you e allowed them to to shout all over others" it works on the presenter and those watching and starts getting others to do what you say. (Like a referee walking away then telling a player to come to them, it breeds compliance)

Bang on. Can't see it mind.
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Online Smal

  • General Member
  • Leeds/York
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #469 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 03:33:07 PM »
If you want to blame the media then dont bother fighting the next election as it ain't going to change. Even on live programmes the Labour representative allowed themselves to be bullied and were even sometimes complicit in the narrative (the crash was Labours fault etc). The message too often opaque and scatter gun and lacked passion, I heard better and more convincing arguments in our mess room than were made by many Labour reps. From what I saw only Barry Gardiner put up much of a fight.

For me they need to go on the attack the moment the next leader is confirmed. At any time, during any interview with whoever if lies or mistruths are told they need to drill down on it until they get an acceptance of what happened. Don't allow things to move on.

The last few years has proven that repetition works on people, if they see 5 years of labour relentlessly calling out bullshit they'll get it.

We can't appease these people any more, it doesn't work.
Couldnt agree more. Also use simple tactics with presenters ie dont but in on others then ask the presenter/moderator "are you going to stop this that's the third time you e allowed them to to shout all over others" it works on the presenter and those watching and starts getting others to do what you say. (Like a referee walking away then telling a player to come to them, it breeds compliance)

Bang on. Can't see it mind.

Doing it on TV is all well and good, but most people don't watch political debates/QT. How are you supposed to combat the headlines in the Mail and the Sun? Or Dominic Cummings' Facebook Memes for the Middle-Aged™?

Offline madras

  • Philosoraptor
  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #470 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 03:42:21 PM »
If you want to blame the media then dont bother fighting the next election as it ain't going to change. Even on live programmes the Labour representative allowed themselves to be bullied and were even sometimes complicit in the narrative (the crash was Labours fault etc). The message too often opaque and scatter gun and lacked passion, I heard better and more convincing arguments in our mess room than were made by many Labour reps. From what I saw only Barry Gardiner put up much of a fight.

For me they need to go on the attack the moment the next leader is confirmed. At any time, during any interview with whoever if lies or mistruths are told they need to drill down on it until they get an acceptance of what happened. Don't allow things to move on.

The last few years has proven that repetition works on people, if they see 5 years of labour relentlessly calling out bullshit they'll get it.

We can't appease these people any more, it doesn't work.
Couldnt agree more. Also use simple tactics with presenters ie dont but in on others then ask the presenter/moderator "are you going to stop this that's the third time you e allowed them to to shout all over others" it works on the presenter and those watching and starts getting others to do what you say. (Like a referee walking away then telling a player to come to them, it breeds compliance)

Bang on. Can't see it mind.

Doing it on TV is all well and good, but most people don't watch political debates/QT. How are you supposed to combat the headlines in the Mail and the Sun? Or Dominic Cummings' Facebook Memes for the Middle-Aged™?
Most peoe dont read the Mail etc, its creating a culture, Labour let the Tories create one of bullying them and telling lies with impunity.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Offline Troll

  • Book Wanker
  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #471 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 07:26:27 PM »

RLB doesn't appear to be picking up many 2nd/3rd/4th preference votes.  People are either all in for her, or avoiding altogether.

The Little Waster

  • Guest
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #472 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 10:15:31 PM »

RLB doesn't appear to be picking up many 2nd/3rd/4th preference votes.  People are either all in for her, or avoiding altogether.

YouGov - Tory owned polling organisation

Offline Greg

  • General Member
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #473 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 10:31:54 PM »
I’ve rejoined Labour to vote for Starmer.

Online newsted

  • General Member
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, EU
Re: UK Politics - Generation Tory
« Reply #474 on: Friday 17 January 2020, 11:29:16 PM »
I’ve rejoined Labour to vote for Starmer.

:thup:

mrs n was "I don't like the look of him" this morning.

"He's the best one, pet. Listen, don't look."
:) As you were.