Author Topic: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder  (Read 136418 times)

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Offline BlufPurdi

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  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6625 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 09:52:58 am »
Yeah it's a total shitshow. Nobody in a position of power considered any of this before asking the question because they just thought Remain would win.

It's the problem with independence based referendums, not that I accept in the slightest Brexit equates to any real form independence.  We could bomb countries whilst most of the rest of the EU turned their noses up at us, so we could largely do what the f*** we want and I'll never be convinced by this argument (have some time about arguing for our parliament's 'supremacy' but whatever).  But up here, we've got the "All Under One Banner" indy movement.  They're not even trying to win the argument on Scottish independence anymore, it's no better, in the slightest, than the Brexiteers and their 'believe in Britain' bullshit.  In fact, it's identical.  One argument is "let's just get independence, we can worry about the rest later", which mirrors Brexit's "we can elect someone else to deliver Brexit" rhetoric, generally peddled by Left Leavers during much of that referendum.  Completely ignored the political realities at the time.

I still snigger at Scottish Remainers, who are in turn indy believers.  They don't even see themselves deploying the exact same arguments as some of the more demented Brexiteers. 

My point, I'm not quite sure what that is now, but shows that yeah, great, we can unite, left, right and centre to achieve these momentous changes, but the second it's delivered the fractures are a million times worse than before.  Scotland will be a shitshow if it gets indy, and their little socialist utopia won't materialise as the the unity that brought them together for that one great push, will be shown for the shallow project it was, bereft of planning, insight, and most importantly of all, honesty.  Just like Brexit.

I've asked similar questions of my pro-independence anti-brexit partner. Her general view is of the generally right wing England ('westminster') reducing the voting share of the generally left wing Scotland. Therefore the ability to push through left wing Scottish agendas is permanently reduced until England decides it wants to try out socialism again. It's a needs-must kind of independence.

This need isn't there when talking about Europe, as it's a socialist ideal and generally seems like it could be a good idea if we got it right. Scotland isn't negatively affected by it's association with the EU as it is with it's association with the UK... when talking about ideals.

I think it's fair enough, really. Not quite as ridiculous as you paint it.

On the contrary, the EU would actually have a lot of control over the Scottish budget when they're independent and in the EU.  Scotland will have to do a lot, such as austerity, to prove their fiscal credentials to the EU and to actually balance to books for a ten-15 year period.  This is the baffling thing.  Look at the smaller countries that get in trouble fiscally, and the EU drills down on their budgets.  See Ireland, Portugal, Italy, Spain, and I won't even mention Greece, that's just the worst of the worst case scenarios.  People seem to think you just join the EU and that's that, but we in the end will join the euro and have to go through austerity (this is what the EU would demand of Scotland to balance the books, not me, eminent economists that point this out).  Scotland would have to inherit their side of the British debt, HBOS etc, there's no way out of it, no matter how many times their supporters scream project fear.

Financially, Scotland do a million times better out of the UK union than they ever would do alone and in the EU.  Just check their latest deficit, which the EU would never allow them to run in the first place, but they get to do that in the UK.  So say good bye to the free prescriptions, OAP bus passes etc.  Their cheap as p*ss oil will not save them now, nor will the whisky business.

In fact, their arguments for independence would make more sense if they weren't arguing to join the EU and euro  What type of politics, whether its conservatism or socialism, doesn't really matter when you can't run deficit to get out of trouble, and that's been the EU's big thing since the crash, no deficits.  Although individual countries sometimes flout this, but not long term.  Considering Scotland has run on a deficit for about a century now, it's not going to be pretty when they take that ability away.

Budget wise that's fair enough, and something I hadn't really thought about before. I still see the merits of wanting to be away from England in a political sense, can you not? Westminster is absolutely f***ed and Scotland has barely any say in it.

Oh aye, I do see the merits, I just hate the lack of honesty that it'll be just as hard as what people went through in the last ten years with austerity, it'll be just as hard as Brexit.  I don't mind voters and supporters of it not being honest on that or willing to accept it, that's a given, but Sturgeon etc should.  It was the same obfuscation we got from leading Brexiteers during that ref. 

In saying all that, if the ref vote was today I'd go for indy, I think the UK is ruined and will never work with any sense of unity again.  The fact another ref isn't today, and could be years down the line, we just never know what the position the UK will be in by then despite the state we're in now, perhaps there'll be enough hope left in unionist scots in the UK as a whole to hold the indy tide back. 
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

Offline Klaus

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6626 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 10:48:20 am »
Yellowhammer is an anagram of Orwell Mayhem
« Last Edit: Thursday 12 September 2019, 11:10:01 am by Klaus »

Online sadnesstan

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Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6627 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 10:53:23 am »
Yellowhammer is an anagram from Orwell Mayhem

Brilliant spot.

Offline kingkerouac

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Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6628 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 02:00:28 pm »
Wonder how the right wing tabloids will report on the UK Prime Minister being found to have broken the law and lied to the Queen, and on the Yellowhammer report.

Ah here we are:



Interestingly, I read a piece about the US media.
People have accused them of s'spinning' facts, when in fact outlets like Fox News just 'omit' what they don't want their viewers to know.
Some guy a Trump rally was asking people what they thought about Donald Trumps' latest f***-up, and they had no idea.
Incredible stuff.

Online sadnesstan

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Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6629 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 02:13:42 pm »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

Offline hakka

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6630 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 02:54:02 pm »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

:thup: it's beyond a joke. Thankfully there influence has plummeted over last 20 years. Hopefully in another 20 there bust.

Offline BottledDog

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6631 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 03:15:13 pm »
Goves 'Get Ready for Brexit' adverts sponsoring the Remaniacs podcast.  :hmm: :lol:

Thought the sunderland MP Bridget Phillipson came across as remarkably sane. Not anti Brexit, but anti shitshow. :clap:
"Newcastle is a strange club and I don't know what else you can say about them" - Ferguson.

Offline Disco

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6632 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 04:55:18 pm »

Honourary Englishman Mick Gove there.

Offline Wullie

  • Administrator
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6633 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 04:56:39 pm »
Remainiacs tweeted that they don't control the ads and that they'll be using the money from those ads for something in particular.

Bridget's N-O alumni, of course she's sane.
Jeff's Garage - Cheaper than some other garages.

Offline Jimburst

  • General Member
  • Yeah Buddy!
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6634 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 05:06:16 pm »
Yeah it's a total shitshow. Nobody in a position of power considered any of this before asking the question because they just thought Remain would win.

It's the problem with independence based referendums, not that I accept in the slightest Brexit equates to any real form independence.  We could bomb countries whilst most of the rest of the EU turned their noses up at us, so we could largely do what the f*** we want and I'll never be convinced by this argument (have some time about arguing for our parliament's 'supremacy' but whatever).  But up here, we've got the "All Under One Banner" indy movement.  They're not even trying to win the argument on Scottish independence anymore, it's no better, in the slightest, than the Brexiteers and their 'believe in Britain' bullshit.  In fact, it's identical.  One argument is "let's just get independence, we can worry about the rest later", which mirrors Brexit's "we can elect someone else to deliver Brexit" rhetoric, generally peddled by Left Leavers during much of that referendum.  Completely ignored the political realities at the time.

I still snigger at Scottish Remainers, who are in turn indy believers.  They don't even see themselves deploying the exact same arguments as some of the more demented Brexiteers. 

My point, I'm not quite sure what that is now, but shows that yeah, great, we can unite, left, right and centre to achieve these momentous changes, but the second it's delivered the fractures are a million times worse than before.  Scotland will be a shitshow if it gets indy, and their little socialist utopia won't materialise as the the unity that brought them together for that one great push, will be shown for the shallow project it was, bereft of planning, insight, and most importantly of all, honesty.  Just like Brexit.

I've asked similar questions of my pro-independence anti-brexit partner. Her general view is of the generally right wing England ('westminster') reducing the voting share of the generally left wing Scotland. Therefore the ability to push through left wing Scottish agendas is permanently reduced until England decides it wants to try out socialism again. It's a needs-must kind of independence.

This need isn't there when talking about Europe, as it's a socialist ideal and generally seems like it could be a good idea if we got it right. Scotland isn't negatively affected by it's association with the EU as it is with it's association with the UK... when talking about ideals.

I think it's fair enough, really. Not quite as ridiculous as you paint it.

On the contrary, the EU would actually have a lot of control over the Scottish budget when they're independent and in the EU.  Scotland will have to do a lot, such as austerity, to prove their fiscal credentials to the EU and to actually balance to books for a ten-15 year period.  This is the baffling thing.  Look at the smaller countries that get in trouble fiscally, and the EU drills down on their budgets.  See Ireland, Portugal, Italy, Spain, and I won't even mention Greece, that's just the worst of the worst case scenarios.  People seem to think you just join the EU and that's that, but we in the end will join the euro and have to go through austerity (this is what the EU would demand of Scotland to balance the books, not me, eminent economists that point this out).  Scotland would have to inherit their side of the British debt, HBOS etc, there's no way out of it, no matter how many times their supporters scream project fear.

Financially, Scotland do a million times better out of the UK union than they ever would do alone and in the EU.  Just check their latest deficit, which the EU would never allow them to run in the first place, but they get to do that in the UK.  So say good bye to the free prescriptions, OAP bus passes etc.  Their cheap as p*ss oil will not save them now, nor will the whisky business.

In fact, their arguments for independence would make more sense if they weren't arguing to join the EU and euro  What type of politics, whether its conservatism or socialism, doesn't really matter when you can't run deficit to get out of trouble, and that's been the EU's big thing since the crash, no deficits.  Although individual countries sometimes flout this, but not long term.  Considering Scotland has run on a deficit for about a century now, it's not going to be pretty when they take that ability away.

Budget wise that's fair enough, and something I hadn't really thought about before. I still see the merits of wanting to be away from England in a political sense, can you not? Westminster is absolutely f***ed and Scotland has barely any say in it.

Oh aye, I do see the merits, I just hate the lack of honesty that it'll be just as hard as what people went through in the last ten years with austerity, it'll be just as hard as Brexit.  I don't mind voters and supporters of it not being honest on that or willing to accept it, that's a given, but Sturgeon etc should.  It was the same obfuscation we got from leading Brexiteers during that ref. 

In saying all that, if the ref vote was today I'd go for indy, I think the UK is ruined and will never work with any sense of unity again.  The fact another ref isn't today, and could be years down the line, we just never know what the position the UK will be in by then despite the state we're in now, perhaps there'll be enough hope left in unionist scots in the UK as a whole to hold the indy tide back. 

I think people just think it couldn't be any worse. Do you think the Austerity would be ideologically driven? I would say not, although I know your dislike for the SNP.

Would that make it easier to stomach (the austerity) if it weren't controlled by right wingers and instead by EU pressure? It could foster anti EU sentiment, I suppose. Maybe having a hand in your own future might make it more palatable.
A splatterhouse turd done in the manky toilets of a discotheque, brought on my the consumption of cowies or toot.

Online sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6635 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 05:12:08 pm »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

:thup: it's beyond a joke. Thankfully there influence has plummeted over last 20 years. Hopefully in another 20 there bust.

It will never go bust. It's not the job of the sun to influence it's 1.4 million readers. It's job is to inform the perceptions of those readers, and amplify the relevance.

Offline Thomson Mouse

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6636 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 05:37:57 pm »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

:thup: it's beyond a joke. Thankfully there influence has plummeted over last 20 years. Hopefully in another 20 there bust.

It will never go bust. It's not the job of the sun to influence it's 1.4 million readers. It's job is to inform the perceptions of those readers, and amplify the relevance.

Which is contrary to what Murdoch admits he uses it for.

People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people.

Online sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6637 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 05:42:03 pm »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

:thup: it's beyond a joke. Thankfully there influence has plummeted over last 20 years. Hopefully in another 20 there bust.

It will never go bust. It's not the job of the sun to influence it's 1.4 million readers. It's job is to inform the perceptions of those readers, and amplify the relevance.

Which is contrary to what Murdoch admits he uses it for.

LMAO

Offline Thomson Mouse

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6638 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 05:44:43 pm »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

:thup: it's beyond a joke. Thankfully there influence has plummeted over last 20 years. Hopefully in another 20 there bust.

It will never go bust. It's not the job of the sun to influence it's 1.4 million readers. It's job is to inform the perceptions of those readers, and amplify the relevance.

Which is contrary to what Murdoch admits he uses it for.

LMAO

:thup: you’re a bit odd
People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people.

Offline TheHoob

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6639 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 05:46:53 pm »

 :lol:

Offline Thomson Mouse

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6640 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 06:06:48 pm »
Didn’t realise Cummings was a Durham boy. Family farm near where Cock o the north used to be apparently
People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people.

Offline Klaus

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6641 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 06:07:27 pm »
:lol: 'passion for France' ffs

Offline mrmojorisin75

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6642 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 09:37:53 pm »
started a new job down in farnborough working in the brexitgammon offices, good times
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Offline BottledDog

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6643 on: Thursday 12 September 2019, 10:24:00 pm »
started a new job down in farnborough working in the brexitgammon offices, good times

Oh man, spent way too much time down there and the Frimley, Aldershot and Camberley surrounds since a friend ended up there.

It is not a joyous place.

Well no, that's unfair. If you're off your face on coke and a radge c***, or away from the dregs and on top of a horse, you're golden.
"Newcastle is a strange club and I don't know what else you can say about them" - Ferguson.

Offline Shadow Puppets

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6644 on: Friday 13 September 2019, 07:05:47 am »
Didn’t realise Cummings was a Durham boy. Family farm near where Cock o the north used to be apparently

My mate plays 5 a side with some of his relatives. By all accounts he’s very unhinged.

Offline kingkerouac

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6645 on: Friday 13 September 2019, 07:40:39 am »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

:thup: it's beyond a joke. Thankfully there influence has plummeted over last 20 years. Hopefully in another 20 there bust.

It will never go bust. It's not the job of the sun to influence it's 1.4 million readers. It's job is to inform the perceptions of those readers, and amplify the relevance.

Which is contrary to what Murdoch admits he uses it for.
All through the 80s, when the Paedo/Sun was attacking anything slightly liberal, the Labour Party, the miners, Snoop Dogg, Elton John etc etc, every time I saw Murdoch interviewed he would boast that he was in touch with his editor every day, and he really controlled the content. Then the it emerged they had wiped Milly Dowler's phone, he apparently knew nothing about it.
A monster. King Paedo.

Offline Thomson Mouse

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6646 on: Friday 13 September 2019, 09:09:07 am »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

:thup: it's beyond a joke. Thankfully there influence has plummeted over last 20 years. Hopefully in another 20 there bust.

It will never go bust. It's not the job of the sun to influence it's 1.4 million readers. It's job is to inform the perceptions of those readers, and amplify the relevance.

Which is contrary to what Murdoch admits he uses it for.
All through the 80s, when the Paedo/Sun was attacking anything slightly liberal, the Labour Party, the miners, Snoop Dogg, Elton John etc etc, every time I saw Murdoch interviewed he would boast that he was in touch with his editor every day, and he really controlled the content. Then the it emerged they had wiped Milly Dowler's phone, he apparently knew nothing about it.
A monster. King Paedo.

That what I was getting at, Murdoch bought it to influence and control opinions nevermind perception stuff.
People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people.

Online sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6647 on: Friday 13 September 2019, 09:42:36 am »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

:thup: it's beyond a joke. Thankfully there influence has plummeted over last 20 years. Hopefully in another 20 there bust.

It will never go bust. It's not the job of the sun to influence it's 1.4 million readers. It's job is to inform the perceptions of those readers, and amplify the relevance.

Which is contrary to what Murdoch admits he uses it for.
All through the 80s, when the Paedo/Sun was attacking anything slightly liberal, the Labour Party, the miners, Snoop Dogg, Elton John etc etc, every time I saw Murdoch interviewed he would boast that he was in touch with his editor every day, and he really controlled the content. Then the it emerged they had wiped Milly Dowler's phone, he apparently knew nothing about it.
A monster. King Paedo.

That what I was getting at, Murdoch bought it to influence and control opinions nevermind perception stuff.

You completely ignore his influence over yourself, when you make that claim. He informs your opinion of the "average sun reader",

Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6648 on: Friday 13 September 2019, 10:23:06 am »
:lol: Man you talk so much guff
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make

Online sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #6649 on: Friday 13 September 2019, 10:32:59 am »
But the sun knows it's position. It knows it's reputation. It knows we know what it is doing, and yet it does it so obviously. It's almost as if they're just laughing at the outrage.

:thup: it's beyond a joke. Thankfully there influence has plummeted over last 20 years. Hopefully in another 20 there bust.

It will never go bust. It's not the job of the sun to influence it's 1.4 million readers. It's job is to inform the perceptions of those readers, and amplify the relevance.

Which is contrary to what Murdoch admits he uses it for.
All through the 80s, when the Paedo/Sun was attacking anything slightly liberal, the Labour Party, the miners, Snoop Dogg, Elton John etc etc, every time I saw Murdoch interviewed he would boast that he was in touch with his editor every day, and he really controlled the content. Then the it emerged they had wiped Milly Dowler's phone, he apparently knew nothing about it.
A monster. King Paedo.

He's definitely the master of grooming vulnerable minds.