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Author Topic: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder  (Read 253281 times)

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Offline Disco

  • General Member
  • Newcastle
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #50 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 11:30:20 AM »
Your average member of Joe Public doesn't give a flying f*** about some poor or disabled dying though. Even moreso if they receive a single penny of public funds.

Nor do most of the media or political class so it'll never be a main narrative.
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Offline Raconteur

  • General Member
  • I don't see any method at all, sir
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #51 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 11:46:52 AM »
Aren't more people going to die, imminently for some, if nuclear isotopes can't clear customs before they decay?
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Steve Bruce: Ashley Enabler.

"I have heard lots of nonsense about tactics but the big thing is about showing pride and having a go." 29/09/19

Offline Darth Crooks

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  • The greatest show on Darth
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #52 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 11:50:06 AM »
What is the Lexit (ugh...) argument exactly? That the EU is an overly powerful capitalist plutocracy?
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Offline Klaus

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #53 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 11:52:46 AM »
Mass immigration suppressing wages and making the rich richer?
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Offline Matt

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #54 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 11:58:52 AM »
It’s grossly unfair to equate people who think the best thing for the country to remain in the EU with not caring about the worst off in our society.

Just because there is clear suffering now is not a reason to disregard the long-term wellbeing of our country. You can have the best-meaning policies in the world, but they will be ineffective if your economy isn’t strong enough to support the level of taxation needed to implement them properly.

It’s not like Labour are 20 points clear and a GE would be a shoo-in tomorrow. We could end up exactly where we are now.
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Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #55 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 12:08:17 PM »
It doesn't really matter how fair it is, it's how these people see it.  Take a trip down Corbynista Lane, all the warning signs are there, but no one is listening to them.  They're pretty much saying they won't vote for Remain, I'm hoping it's all a bluff, or that it's not reflective of the true numbers, but I stand by the statement that the Left will ensure Brexit.

EDIT: For the sake of clarity, I never once said people that want a second referendum didn't care about the state of the country.  What I said was that is how those most affected by the state of the country will feel when you prioritise this above their lives.  It's not even so much about the choice, it's the conduct of it all.  The fact the leadership of it is the likes of Grieve, Soubry and Umunna only compounds they belief that those that want it don't really care about those that are suffering most in society.  I don't really need to make this argument, it's out there in the masses of the Left.  Because of that, I guarantee they'll tell the EU to f*** off and more than the 30% (whatever the precise figure was) of Labour voters will vote for Brexit this time. 
« Last Edit: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 01:04:28 PM by BlufPurdi »
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Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline AyeDubbleYoo

  • General Member
  • Ian W
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #56 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 12:28:19 PM »
Hard to predict obviously. Corbyn also attracted loads of young people to Labour who presumably mostly want remain. Not to mention the people who were too young to vote in 2016.
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Offline neesy111

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  • Madrid, ES
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #57 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 12:35:24 PM »
What a grim conversation.
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Offline Raconteur

  • General Member
  • I don't see any method at all, sir
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #58 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 01:24:36 PM »
EU straight up saying that no deal = hard Irish border.

Quote
No-deal Brexit will lead to hard border in Ireland, says EU

At his briefing in Brussels, as well as quoting the Spice Girls to make the point that the EU does not know what the UK wants on Brexit (see 11.53am), Margaritis Schinas, the European commission spokesman, also said that a no-deal Brexit would lead to the return of a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. He said:

    If you like to push me and speculate on what might happen in a no-deal scenario in Ireland, I think it’s pretty obvious, you will have a hard border.

    Our commitment to the Good Friday agreement and everything that we have been doing for years with our tools, instruments and programmes will have to take inevitably into account this fact.

    So, of course, we are for peace, of course we stand behind the Good Friday agreement, but that’s what a no-deal scenario would entail.

According to the Sun’s Nick Gutteridge, that is the first time the commission has been this explicit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/jan/22/brexit-latest-news-developments-theresa-may-under-pressure-to-allow-ministers-free-vote-on-amendment-to-block-no-deal-politics-live

How much do English Brexiteers care about that?
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Steve Bruce: Ashley Enabler.

"I have heard lots of nonsense about tactics but the big thing is about showing pride and having a go." 29/09/19

Offline Klaus

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #59 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 01:32:01 PM »
I’m sure voters in Sunderland and Stoke can’t sleep at night, thinking about it.
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Online sadnesstan

  • General Member
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #60 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 01:35:39 PM »
How will "brexiteers" react to the news that the EU is putting it's own economic interests before the interests of the people it pretends to represent?

Probably not surprised.
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Offline Disco

  • General Member
  • Newcastle
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #61 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 01:40:26 PM »
Quote from: Raconteur on Tuesday 22 January 2019, 01:24:36 PM
EU straight up saying that no deal = hard Irish border.

Quote
No-deal Brexit will lead to hard border in Ireland, says EU

At his briefing in Brussels, as well as quoting the Spice Girls to make the point that the EU does not know what the UK wants on Brexit (see 11.53am), Margaritis Schinas, the European commission spokesman, also said that a no-deal Brexit would lead to the return of a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. He said:

    If you like to push me and speculate on what might happen in a no-deal scenario in Ireland, I think it’s pretty obvious, you will have a hard border.

    Our commitment to the Good Friday agreement and everything that we have been doing for years with our tools, instruments and programmes will have to take inevitably into account this fact.

    So, of course, we are for peace, of course we stand behind the Good Friday agreement, but that’s what a no-deal scenario would entail.

According to the Sun’s Nick Gutteridge, that is the first time the commission has been this explicit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/jan/22/brexit-latest-news-developments-theresa-may-under-pressure-to-allow-ministers-free-vote-on-amendment-to-block-no-deal-politics-live

How much do English Brexiteers care about that?

https://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/londonderry-car-bomb.1459068/page-6

Getting quite excited about it, it would appear.
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Offline Raconteur

  • General Member
  • I don't see any method at all, sir
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #62 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 01:50:33 PM »
Quote from: sadnesstan on Tuesday 22 January 2019, 01:35:39 PM
How will "brexiteers" react to the news that the EU is putting it's own economic interests before the interests of the people it pretends to represent?

Probably not surprised.

Can you explain to me how a hard border between the Republic and the North is in the economic interests of Brussels and yet also against the interests of the entire EU population?

Also, just wondering if your use of quotation marks meant you took the term Brexiteer as a pejorative? Is that where we're at, semantically? What collective noun should be used to describe people who want the UK to leave the EU?
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Steve Bruce: Ashley Enabler.

"I have heard lots of nonsense about tactics but the big thing is about showing pride and having a go." 29/09/19

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #63 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 02:30:53 PM »
Quote from: Raconteur on Tuesday 22 January 2019, 01:24:36 PM
EU straight up saying that no deal = hard Irish border.

Quote
No-deal Brexit will lead to hard border in Ireland, says EU

At his briefing in Brussels, as well as quoting the Spice Girls to make the point that the EU does not know what the UK wants on Brexit (see 11.53am), Margaritis Schinas, the European commission spokesman, also said that a no-deal Brexit would lead to the return of a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. He said:

    If you like to push me and speculate on what might happen in a no-deal scenario in Ireland, I think it’s pretty obvious, you will have a hard border.

    Our commitment to the Good Friday agreement and everything that we have been doing for years with our tools, instruments and programmes will have to take inevitably into account this fact.

    So, of course, we are for peace, of course we stand behind the Good Friday agreement, but that’s what a no-deal scenario would entail.

According to the Sun’s Nick Gutteridge, that is the first time the commission has been this explicit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/jan/22/brexit-latest-news-developments-theresa-may-under-pressure-to-allow-ministers-free-vote-on-amendment-to-block-no-deal-politics-live

How much do English Brexiteers care about that?

They don't really care.  They're quite happy to jeopardise peace in NI to get Brexit.  Of course, they cling to the notion that Brexit doesn't mean trouble has to start again, and of course that's right, it doesn't have to.  They (Norn Irish) can meekly roll over and allow English eccentrics and fuckwit rulers to f*** them over again (and again and again and again), but the chances are they won't, and some sort of resistance/terrorism will form and return.
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Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline Raconteur

  • General Member
  • I don't see any method at all, sir
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #64 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 02:40:48 PM »
I guess that’s what inspired the question - politicians see a red line and a potentially massive social problem, but it doesn’t mean much to the citizens who want out.
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Steve Bruce: Ashley Enabler.

"I have heard lots of nonsense about tactics but the big thing is about showing pride and having a go." 29/09/19

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #65 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 02:48:15 PM »
Hmm, nah sorry, I might not have been as clear as I hoped.  I should have been clearer, it's the Brexiteer politicians that have cleared the way for the people to think nothing of NI.  The likes of Mogg, Hoey, probably a few others, dismissing the role the GFA has played in continued and long-lasting peace.  If it wasn't for them specifically pissing on the NI redline, I don't think voters would have been as dismissive, but that's pure speculation obviously. 

There'd clearly always be some voters that were never going to care, but once the politicians opened their mouth and gave the soundbites that undermined the GFA/NI, it enabled a mass of voters to start thinking along those lines too, if that makes any sense.  No deal used to be the most unpopular scenario, it's now at the point where I think it's neck and neck with a second referendum.  We've panned some of the politicians for their incompetence, but I think we underestimate the effect they have on the electorate, at our peril.
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Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #66 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 03:13:10 PM »

Interesting analysis from John Curtice. 
Logged
Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline Darth Crooks

  • General Member
  • The greatest show on Darth
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #67 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 04:21:21 PM »
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Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #68 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 04:28:48 PM »
Adam Tooze is good. :thup:
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Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline BlufPurdi

  • Administrator
  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #69 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 05:12:45 PM »
Looks like Labour are tearing themselves apart over the second referendum.

A load of other tweets, but I agree with this:

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Making mistakes is how you learn.
Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and there is no final defeat, and so a little bit of history may help.
“What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
That is why no one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it – including you and me, here and now.

Offline Incognito

  • General Member
  • Get your hands off me you freak
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #70 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 05:17:20 PM »
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Offline Skeletor

  • General Member
  • I joined Newcastle before they were mainstream
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #71 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 05:28:34 PM »
Quote from: BlufPurdi on Tuesday 22 January 2019, 03:13:10 PM

Interesting analysis from John Curtice. 

He's stating the obvious. The only people who support a second referendum are remain voters. That's why politicians won't commit to it as they know the support isn't there. A sky poll the other day showed 56% against a second vote.
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Offline Super Duper Branko Strupar

  • General Member
  • Leeds Leeds Leeds
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #72 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 05:29:13 PM »
Of Sky viewers, yeah.

Remember, these people actively choose to watch Eamonn Holmes and Kay Burley.
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Offline AyeDubbleYoo

  • General Member
  • Ian W
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #73 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 05:40:31 PM »
If Sky news only have 56% I’m confident there’s actually a majority for it.
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Offline neesy111

  • General Member
  • Madrid, ES
Re: Brexit 2: Brexit Harder
« Reply #74 on: Tuesday 22 January 2019, 05:41:31 PM »
There's not a majority for a 2nd ref looking at various polls.
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