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Archives => Hall Of Fame => Topic started by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 07:58:25 AM

Title: Scottish Independence - No Wins!
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 07:58:25 AM
Not seen a thread on this yet so thought we should have one.

A push for a referendum from Alex Salmond as leader of the SNP and now Scotlands first minister...this is really gathering pace.

Should we all vote on it in the UK or should it be Scotlands vote ?


Personally I would be dissapointed if we broke the union up.


Bit of history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 08:45:52 AM
Doesn't concern me greatly either way, other than the prospect of having to remember my passport and change my money when I want to go walking (because whichever way you look at it, they've got better mountains than we have).  I don't think anybody can accurately foresee what difference it'll make to either country economically without it actually happening.  Not sure how they'll manage as regards military (or whether they'll just not bother).

It should be Scotland's vote exclusively, though - it's nowt to do with us, really.
it's a break of the union so surely all members of the union should have a vote ? and why would you need to change money and need a passport etc ? never been to the benelux countries ?

fwiw i couldn't give a toss and they tend to run scared themselves when you tell them they aren't getting the oil/gas.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: garth on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 08:48:07 AM
A good thing. I hope they go for it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: MKSC on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:09:13 AM
I'm all for Scottish independence, and you can add Welsh and Irish independence in to the pot to boot. IMO England is under represented in Westminster and foots the bill for the other countries while not getting the same benefits like free prescriptions, no tuition fees, drugs that are restricted in England due to cost but available in Scotland etc etc. The whole idea of the Union is past it's sell by date and devolution has only served to hasten the full break-up of it. It would have happened eventually. England should have it's own parliament and take control of her own affairs as should the other members of the union.

This isn't a racist thing by the way. Colour or religion don't come in to it. It's purely about people living in England, regardless of ethnicity, being ripped off by the rest of the UK.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Super Duper Branko Strupar on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:12:08 AM
Wouldn't want it myself. Canny proud to be a part of the same nation as the Scottish. I feel that if we lose the Scottish attitude and influence then we'd be worse off. Especially up North.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:18:23 AM
Sad to see it break up, we've achived some pretty big things together.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:20:15 AM
My feeling is that people should be moving to more and more unity, not more and more separation. I would disappointed if Scotland chose to leave the UK.

I am slightly annoyed that Scotland gets a much better deal on things like prescriptions and students fees though, but devolution wouldn't solve that.

It's a difficult issue, even putting it to referendum in Scotland will leave a lot of people feeling it's been forced on them. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I guess it can't be more than about 65% of the Scottish population who would be in favour.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: OzzieMandias on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:28:32 AM
It would mean Conservative governments forever in England, like.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:33:11 AM
It would mean Conservative governments forever in England, like.

I think England needs Scotland more then Scotland needs England.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:45:47 AM
Also, would set a precedent that Wales and Ireland (eek!) would no doubt push hard to follow.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Fenham Mag on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:50:57 AM
Don't know what there problem is like. Im proud to be British.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:53:18 AM
England on its own, it'll be ran by total dickheads.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:54:02 AM
England on its own, it'll be ran by total dickheads.

Yep, if Scotland get independence I want Tyneside to go with them.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:55:59 AM
yup.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 09:56:45 AM
No happening.  Salmond's just a fat c***.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 10:09:35 AM
No happening.  Salmond's just a fat c***.

He is drumming up support, promising the Scots a "look at Norway" model.

Tho one Scotch guy on newsnight said "Norway is really expensive".

Apparently Salmond used to bang on about Iceland and Ireland as models.

Oh dear.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Darth Crooks on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 11:34:32 AM
Surely their economy would suffer. Granted they only have to govern around 4 million people. Surley the benefits of a British Union outweigh being separate. Oh and the fact Alex Salmand is an absolute cleft.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Dokko on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 11:42:45 AM
Can scotland financially support itself?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 11:52:06 AM
Can scotland financially support itself?

They claim they can, Salmond also (according to newsnight)  that he wants scotland to be the saudi arabi of renewable fuels.



Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 12:34:01 PM
Can scotland financially support itself?

They claim they can, Salmond also (according to newsnight)  that he wants scotland to be the saudi arabi of renewable fuels.





If he can guarantee a certain quota of Saudi sunshine every year that sounds great.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 02:24:07 PM
I think the vote should only be in Scotland and England. People in Wales and the north of Ireland would vote for the wrong reasons, for example nationalists here would vote yes just to break the union and make the chances of a referendum here even greater.

Im all for their Independence and the union breaking, but right now is probably not the best time to do it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 02:33:57 PM
get them tae f*** (as long as we keep the oil :thup:)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 02:41:26 PM
I think the vote should only be in Scotland and England. People in Wales and the north of Ireland would vote for the wrong reasons, for example nationalists here would vote yes just to break the union and make the chances of a referendum here even greater.

Im all for their Independence and the union breaking, but right not is probably not the best time to do it.

Aren't we stronger as a collection of nations rather then being individual nations, ie Europe will swallow us all.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 02:45:43 PM
Aren't we stronger as a collection of nations rather then being individual nations, ie Europe will swallow us all.

we're a f***ing joke as we are, don't see how breaking up will make things any worse

when i say worse i mean for everyone but england - i think breaking up would be a disaster for england personally, politics would go right-wing to the max and we'd become the island nation the tories always wanted
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 02:59:29 PM
Aren't we stronger as a collection of nations rather then being individual nations, ie Europe will swallow us all.

we're a f***ing joke as we are, don't see how breaking up will make things any worse

when i say worse i mean for everyone but england - i think breaking up would be a disaster for england personally, politics would go right-wing to the max and we'd become the island nation the tories always wanted

I would dread the day!

Id move to scotland or if I have the money fcking off to Canada, NZ, or Aus.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: pedro111 on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 03:11:16 PM
It would mean Conservative governments forever in England, like.

I think England needs Scotland more then Scotland needs England.

Errr, how? We benefit from the oil and?.....
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 03:11:39 PM
Aren't we stronger as a collection of nations rather then being individual nations, ie Europe will swallow us all.

we're a f***ing joke as we are, don't see how breaking up will make things any worse

when i say worse i mean for everyone but england - i think breaking up would be a disaster for england personally, politics would go right-wing to the max and we'd become the island nation the tories always wanted

I would dread the day!

Id move to scotland or if I have the money fcking off to Canada, NZ, or Aus.

mind if i was scottish i'd be on the streets campaigning like a motherfucker to go indi like - assuming they could get the oil money (how can they by the way?)

never understood unionists from scotland, wales and ni personally, can't compute it
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 03:13:02 PM
It would mean Conservative governments forever in England, like.

I think England needs Scotland more then Scotland needs England.

Errr, how? We benefit from the oil and?.....

I wasn't talking about it from a resources point of view, more about the issue thay Scotland brings a bit of balance.  Otherwise england will be a tory country.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 03:13:20 PM
It would mean Conservative governments forever in England, like.

I think England needs Scotland more then Scotland needs England.

Errr, how? We benefit from the oil and?.....

there doesn't need to be anything else einstein, look at the f***ing taxes the tories have just hit the oil companies with - that all goes away

think petrol is expensive now?  imagine jock mctavish selling it to the english :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 03:15:23 PM
Every government will tax the f*** out of fuel, you don't need to worry about that.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 03:17:05 PM
Every government will tax the f*** out of fuel, you don't need to worry about that.

population of scotland is the key though isn't it ian?  salmond has a plan and it if i was a jock it'd sound pretty f***ing good to me
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: The Prophet on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 03:21:12 PM
Do it, it'll be fun watching reality sink in
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 03:35:07 PM
Do it, it'll be fun watching reality sink in

who do what?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Tooj on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 03:47:21 PM
It would mean Conservative governments forever in England, like.

This.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 05:25:17 PM
It would mean Conservative governments forever in England, like.
That is a good ficking point and a large part of the reason that Scotland is even considering this in the first place.

Thatcher and the Tories really had it in for the North and were pretty severe towards the NE... they were even worse towards Scotland. I still remember the Poll Tax fiasco in Scotland of 1989-1990.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: SiLvOR on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 05:33:34 PM
I'm all for Scottish independence, and you can add Welsh and Irish independence in to the pot to boot. IMO England is under represented in Westminster and foots the bill for the other countries while not getting the same benefits like free prescriptions, no tuition fees, drugs that are restricted in England due to cost but available in Scotland etc etc. The whole idea of the Union is past it's sell by date and devolution has only served to hasten the full break-up of it. It would have happened eventually. England should have it's own parliament and take control of her own affairs as should the other members of the union.

This isn't a racist thing by the way. Colour or religion don't come in to it. It's purely about people living in England, regardless of ethnicity, being ripped off by the rest of the UK.

Spot on mate.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 05:33:52 PM
It would mean Conservative governments forever in England, like.
That is a good ficking point and a large part of the reason that Scotland is even considering this in the first place.

Thatcher and the Tories really had it in for the North and were pretty severe towards the NE... they were even worse towards Scotland. I still remember the Poll Tax fiasco in Scotland of 1989-1990.
:dowie:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: CheickMansour on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 05:43:38 PM
It would mean Conservative governments forever in England, like.

Aye, I think it's the one thing that makes this even a possibility. Otherwise I don't think it would even be an issue.

If you come from a country that consistently votes for the left but you're constantly ruled by the Conservatives and the like (Lib dems and labour are barely different), then it must get pretty tiring.

Personally I'm against for that very reason. If devolution appeals to anyone, just think of years of endless Tory hell. Plus, I moved up to Scotland many year ago and found them to be much more similar to the North in terms of attitudes etc compared to those down south. Like someone suggested earlier, it would be interesting if the North were to break away with them. It won't happen though.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: cp40 on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 05:47:16 PM
why hasnt jock mcGM had his two penneth in this thread?


i say fk em if they dont want us- fk off, bomb the b******s.










on the other hand, maybe not so good to break the union up, had some canny holidays in jocko land , might not of went if it was foreign.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: CheickMansour on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 05:49:42 PM
I'm all for Scottish independence, and you can add Welsh and Irish independence in to the pot to boot. IMO England is under represented in Westminster and foots the bill for the other countries while not getting the same benefits like free prescriptions, no tuition fees, drugs that are restricted in England due to cost but available in Scotland etc etc. The whole idea of the Union is past it's sell by date and devolution has only served to hasten the full break-up of it. It would have happened eventually. England should have it's own parliament and take control of her own affairs as should the other members of the union.

This isn't a racist thing by the way. Colour or religion don't come in to it. It's purely about people living in England, regardless of ethnicity, being ripped off by the rest of the UK.

I don't know about Wales or Ireland, but doesn't Scotland receives its money as a block grant, which it then chooses to divide and use as it wants? It's not like free prescriptions drain money from England's NHS budget. Instead, x amount of money is set aside for Scotland and it receives that money regardless of whether they have free prescriptions/ free university or not.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: AfroP on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 06:44:37 PM
they would be doomed to fail on they're own
majority of the NHS and public services are paid for with tax revenue generated here, unemployment and alcoholism are rife in Scotland and many of the skilled workers come to the UK to find work and better paying jobs.

If they do seperate from us I think we should charge them rent for taking up the top half of our island :-)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: ross magoo on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 06:53:41 PM
I'm not opposed to it in principle but somebody would need to put forward a good economic argument in its favour first and i'm still waiting for that to happen.  There are a lot of questions still to be answered such as what would an independent Scotland have done about the RBS collapse (go to the IMF with our begging bowl is not an acceptable answer).  I want to know what the SNP's plans are for job & wealth creation, health, education etc post-independence but so far they've been pretty reluctant to get into that discussion, it's all been a bit too "vote for independence first and we'll sort out the important stuff later" for my liking.

So right now it's a no from me but if they can come up with a plan that stacks up then i am open to having my mind changed.  However i won't hold my breath on that given that in my experience most of the SNP's support comes from parochial anti-English bigots who aren't even interested in the politics or economics of it unfortunately.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 07:03:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfkr_bYnIeU
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 07:25:28 PM
I wouldn't want to see Scotland leave the union, I don't think it would be in either the Scottish or the British interests, we'd all be worse off I reckon.

As for Northern Ireland I'm not so sure, it'd be tempting to just let it be someone else's problem, but rationally the same thing probably applies to them and all.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 07:44:35 PM
As someone born in Newcastle, but who has lived most his life in Scotland, I've got an arseful of splinters from having sat on the fence on this issue for years. On balance, if I think about it then I have to admit I have a good deal of sympathy with those who call for greater autonomy for Scotland, not least because of what Thatcher did to this country and the Poll Tax being just one of them, but I'm not in favour of independence. I think I'd actually favour a system of federal government with power devolved to all four home nations, each having their own Parliament (possibly with England having two assemblies, one for North of England and another for the South of England). I think that would ensure that every area had a more representative system of government, and a greater degree of self-determination in terms of social and economic policy. I'd also want the House of Lords to become an elected UK-wide Senate with overall control of defence, foreign affairs and international development. That would make sense to me.

There's no clear, definitive evidence on whether Scotland could actually go it alone successfully, or if there is I have yet to see it, but these recent news stories make for interesting reading if you're bothered enough to equip yourselves with some slightly more informed opinion on the issue, rather than rolling out half-arsed, dog-eared, cliché-ridden, angst laden tripe that dogs this debate.

I have to say the comments in this thread by some folks about wanting to escape to Scotland to escape the ravages of Tory government have put a wry smile of recognition on my face. After all, it was only 7 years ago that the North-East was given an opportunity to have its own Assembly which was rejected at the time, quite forcefully: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3984387.stm
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 07:48:17 PM
Yep, you lot f***ed it all for the rest of us too. :angry:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 07:49:11 PM
"you lot" being the north east, not GM and the rest of the sporran wearers.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 07:52:26 PM
"you lot" being the north east, not GM and the rest of the sporran wearers.

I am not actually Scottish, nor do I own or have I ever worn a sporran. :hmm:

But I take your point otherwise. :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 08:14:53 PM
Dinae fash y'sell big yin, ah ken ya noo a Scot. ;)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 08:29:35 PM
Dinae fash y'sell big yin, ah ken ya noo a Scot. ;)

(http://www.emofaces.com/en/smilies/s/scotsman-smile.gif)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: RupertCommunicator on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 08:33:06 PM
Having been born in England, educated in Scotland, employed by the BRITISH Army and having spent a decent chunk of time living in Norn Iron, I can add the following pearls of wisdom:

1.  Scotland is a pretty decent place.
2. The North East of England (minus wearyside) is also pretty decent.
3. The rest of England and Wales is alright with the exceptions of London and Merseyside (which are full of c***s) and Birmingham (which is a shithole).
4.  Norn Iron is about 200 years behind everyone else due to some Sectarian pricks who have ruined the place.

Therefore, if the split happened, i'd rather it was at Cleveland in order to say with the decent half of the country. But it wouldn't work because the Scottish economy would instantly fold.
I'd be all for giving Norn Iron away though, nothing to offer the UK whatsoever.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 08:37:38 PM
Northern Ireland would never be part of the UK if it wasnt for Unionists, that is literally the only reason its still in the union. If a day comes when Northern Ireland has more nationalists than unionists, you can expect the Brits to give it up in a heartbeat. If the Irish economy is better of course.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: johnnypd on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 08:42:57 PM
As someone born in Newcastle, but who has lived most his life in Scotland, I've got an arseful of splinters from having sat on the fence on this issue for years. On balance, if I think about it then I have to admit I have a good deal of sympathy with those who call for greater autonomy for Scotland, not least because of what Thatcher did to this country and the Poll Tax being just one of them, but I'm not in favour of independence. I think I'd actually favour a system of federal government with power devolved to all four home nations, each having their own Parliament (possibly with England having two assemblies, one for North of England and another for the South of England). I think that would ensure that every area had a more representative system of government, and a greater degree of self-determination in terms of social and economic policy. I'd also want the House of Lords to become an elected UK-wide Senate with overall control of defence, foreign affairs and international development. That would make sense to me.

There's no clear, definitive evidence on whether Scotland could actually go it alone successfully, or if there is I have yet to see it, but these recent news stories make for interesting reading if you're bothered enough to equip yourselves with some slightly more informed opinion on the issue, rather than rolling out half-arsed, dog-eared, cliché-ridden, angst laden tripe that dogs this debate.
  • http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/22/new-study-undermines-economic-independence-scotland
  • http://news.scotsman.com/scottishindependence/Michael-Keating-How-can-Scotland.6785081.jp
  • http://news.stv.tv/scotland/253188-snp-economic-adviser-unsure-of-benefits-independence-would-bring/

I have to say the comments in this thread by some folks about wanting to escape to Scotland to escape the ravages of Tory government have put a wry smile of recognition on my face. After all, it was only 7 years ago that the North-East was given an opportunity to have its own Assembly which was rejected at the time, quite forcefully: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3984387.stm


Yep, I'd be in favour of a more federalised UK, with an NE assembly, Yorkshire parliament etc, or whatever, with Scotland being part of that with probably even greater autonomy than now. I think the current set up is pretty amazing for the Scots tbh, with many of the advantages of the union - having their banks bailed out by the govt for instance, had they gone it alone it would've crippled the nation, or having cheaper NHS or University access, benefits im not sure they could afford being independent. while they also have many of the advantages of a more independent approach.

The NE missing out on a regional assembly was a devastating missed opportunity - the tories manipulative, negative approach apparently convinced the more naturally conservative or stupid north-easterners who bought lies about bureacracy, or bought into the regional infighting that mackems revel in. certainly doesn't raise a wry smile to my face - more like an angry scowl

On a personal level since I live in Scotland i wouldnt want to wake up one morning to find out i'm no longer in "my" country. i also think nationalism has a narrow minded, insular streak that i wouldn't want to see encouraged any further. though maybe the chip on the shoulder that many scots have would disappear with full independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 08:50:11 PM
As someone born in Newcastle, but who has lived most his life in Scotland, I've got an arseful of splinters from having sat on the fence on this issue for years. On balance, if I think about it then I have to admit I have a good deal of sympathy with those who call for greater autonomy for Scotland, not least because of what Thatcher did to this country and the Poll Tax being just one of them, but I'm not in favour of independence. I think I'd actually favour a system of federal government with power devolved to all four home nations, each having their own Parliament (possibly with England having two assemblies, one for North of England and another for the South of England). I think that would ensure that every area had a more representative system of government, and a greater degree of self-determination in terms of social and economic policy. I'd also want the House of Lords to become an elected UK-wide Senate with overall control of defence, foreign affairs and international development. That would make sense to me.

There's no clear, definitive evidence on whether Scotland could actually go it alone successfully, or if there is I have yet to see it, but these recent news stories make for interesting reading if you're bothered enough to equip yourselves with some slightly more informed opinion on the issue, rather than rolling out half-arsed, dog-eared, cliché-ridden, angst laden tripe that dogs this debate.
  • http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/22/new-study-undermines-economic-independence-scotland
  • http://news.scotsman.com/scottishindependence/Michael-Keating-How-can-Scotland.6785081.jp
  • http://news.stv.tv/scotland/253188-snp-economic-adviser-unsure-of-benefits-independence-would-bring/

I have to say the comments in this thread by some folks about wanting to escape to Scotland to escape the ravages of Tory government have put a wry smile of recognition on my face. After all, it was only 7 years ago that the North-East was given an opportunity to have its own Assembly which was rejected at the time, quite forcefully: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3984387.stm


Yep, I'd be in favour of a more federalised UK, with an NE assembly, Yorkshire parliament etc, or whatever, with Scotland being part of that with probably even greater autonomy than now. I think the current set up is pretty amazing for the Scots tbh, with many of the advantages of the union - having their banks bailed out by the govt for instance, had they gone it alone it would've crippled the nation, or having cheaper NHS or University access, benefits im not sure they could afford being independent. while they also have many of the advantages of a more independent approach.

The NE missing out on a regional assembly was a devastating missed opportunity - the tories manipulative, negative approach apparently convinced the more naturally conservative or stupid north-easterners who bought lies about bureacracy, or bought into the regional infighting that mackems revel in. certainly doesn't raise a wry smile to my face - more like an angry scowl

On a personal level since I live in Scotland i wouldnt want to wake up one morning to find out i'm no longer in "my" country. i also think nationalism has a narrow minded, insular streak that i wouldn't want to see encouraged any further. though maybe the chip on the shoulder that many scots have would disappear with full independence.

Whereabouts do you live, johnnypd?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 10:48:25 PM
i also think nationalism has a narrow minded, insular streak that i wouldn't want to see encouraged any further.
That's the pith of this discussion really and the biggest argument against independence, for both England and Scotland BTW. If Scotland left, as Ozzy pointed out, Tories would rule supreme and I fear they and England ingeneral would move more toward nationalism as well.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 11:11:49 PM
"you lot" being the north east, not GM and the rest of the sporran wearers.

I am not actually Scottish, nor do I own or have I ever worn a sporran. :hmm:

But I take your point otherwise. :lol:

 :kasper: GM man, get yourself a sporran, you're missing out.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 11:23:01 PM
"you lot" being the north east, not GM and the rest of the sporran wearers.

I am not actually Scottish, nor do I own or have I ever worn a sporran. :hmm:

But I take your point otherwise. :lol:

 :kasper: GM man, get yourself a sporran, you're missing out.

Well I do have two cats. :naughty:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 5 July 2011, 11:24:50 PM
"you lot" being the north east, not GM and the rest of the sporran wearers.

I am not actually Scottish, nor do I own or have I ever worn a sporran. :hmm:

But I take your point otherwise. :lol:

 :kasper: GM man, get yourself a sporran, you're missing out.

Well I do have two cats. :naughty:

Keep those poor cats away from there!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: johnnypd on Tuesday 12 July 2011, 09:39:29 PM
As someone born in Newcastle, but who has lived most his life in Scotland, I've got an arseful of splinters from having sat on the fence on this issue for years. On balance, if I think about it then I have to admit I have a good deal of sympathy with those who call for greater autonomy for Scotland, not least because of what Thatcher did to this country and the Poll Tax being just one of them, but I'm not in favour of independence. I think I'd actually favour a system of federal government with power devolved to all four home nations, each having their own Parliament (possibly with England having two assemblies, one for North of England and another for the South of England). I think that would ensure that every area had a more representative system of government, and a greater degree of self-determination in terms of social and economic policy. I'd also want the House of Lords to become an elected UK-wide Senate with overall control of defence, foreign affairs and international development. That would make sense to me.

There's no clear, definitive evidence on whether Scotland could actually go it alone successfully, or if there is I have yet to see it, but these recent news stories make for interesting reading if you're bothered enough to equip yourselves with some slightly more informed opinion on the issue, rather than rolling out half-arsed, dog-eared, cliché-ridden, angst laden tripe that dogs this debate.
  • http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/22/new-study-undermines-economic-independence-scotland
  • http://news.scotsman.com/scottishindependence/Michael-Keating-How-can-Scotland.6785081.jp
  • http://news.stv.tv/scotland/253188-snp-economic-adviser-unsure-of-benefits-independence-would-bring/

I have to say the comments in this thread by some folks about wanting to escape to Scotland to escape the ravages of Tory government have put a wry smile of recognition on my face. After all, it was only 7 years ago that the North-East was given an opportunity to have its own Assembly which was rejected at the time, quite forcefully: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3984387.stm


Yep, I'd be in favour of a more federalised UK, with an NE assembly, Yorkshire parliament etc, or whatever, with Scotland being part of that with probably even greater autonomy than now. I think the current set up is pretty amazing for the Scots tbh, with many of the advantages of the union - having their banks bailed out by the govt for instance, had they gone it alone it would've crippled the nation, or having cheaper NHS or University access, benefits im not sure they could afford being independent. while they also have many of the advantages of a more independent approach.

The NE missing out on a regional assembly was a devastating missed opportunity - the tories manipulative, negative approach apparently convinced the more naturally conservative or stupid north-easterners who bought lies about bureacracy, or bought into the regional infighting that mackems revel in. certainly doesn't raise a wry smile to my face - more like an angry scowl

On a personal level since I live in Scotland i wouldnt want to wake up one morning to find out i'm no longer in "my" country. i also think nationalism has a narrow minded, insular streak that i wouldn't want to see encouraged any further. though maybe the chip on the shoulder that many scots have would disappear with full independence.

Whereabouts do you live, johnnypd?

living in Edinburgh atm. stockbridge area or thereabouts. nicest place ive lived in the UK.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Friday 27 January 2012, 01:26:35 PM
Thought this article was both thoughtful and thought-provoking in equal measure. (http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/7738/scotsmansmile.gif)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/15/neal-ascherson-scottish-independence-salmond (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/15/neal-ascherson-scottish-independence-salmond)

Quote
 
Let Scotland be a sovereign, mature nation and England benefits too
Scots have long wanted to run their own affairs, but don't want independence. Devo max gives them that chance

 
Neal Ascherson
The Observer, Sunday 15 January 2012

Slowly but inexorably, the coalition government is backing into a Scottish trap. But in the end it's a benevolent trap. If it clangs shut, the nations of the United Kingdom – England as well as Scotland – may emerge transformed into a wiser, modernised relationship in which they can cope with their own problems without illusions.

Everything depends on getting the famous "second question" into the referendum. This is the option for "devolution plus" or "devo max". It's the choice that Scotland should acquire full control over taxation and other "reserved matters" while staying – for the present – within the United Kingdom which would keep authority over foreign policy and defence. In other words, complete internal autonomy – as practised in several European multinational states. Spain, for instance, grants full internal self-government, including taxation powers, to the Basque country and Catalonia.

So far, the powers in London and Edinburgh won't admit that any such option should stand on the ballot paper. David Cameron and Ed Miliband, queasily supported by the Liberal Democrats, demand the single question: yes or no to full sovereign independence. Alex Salmond, first minister and leader of the SNP, doesn't shut the door on that second question. But he continues to insist that by 2014 the Scottish people will be ready to return a solid majority vote for independence.

Does he really believe it? In an article published in Friday's Herald, Salmond scathingly derided the panicky efforts of Westminster to impose its own terms and date for the referendum, which he claims are merely hardening support for "independence, nothing less". He did not even mention the "second question". But everyone knows that it's on his mind.

There's a gross contrast between the muddled uproar in the Westminster village and the sardonic calm north of the border. The Scots have heard all this stuff many times in the past half-century, especially the bedraggled old threat that uncertainty about the constitutional future is driving business away from Scotland (the evidence for it is still zero). They are entertained and stimulated by the fuss. But they are waiting to see if anyone is going to make the Scots an offer resembling what most people want.

Scotland is a deeply conservative country – with a small "c". The colossal uprootings and transformations of the industrial and agrarian revolutions left the Scots with a heavy distrust of social experiment. Politics has become a matter of drastic steps to preserve older securities. In that sense, paradoxically, the SNP can be seen as the most "British" of parties. Its social programme is to preserve and fortify what's left of the old British welfare state consensus, building a new Hadrian's Wall against the neoliberal tsunami that has weakened social justice and cohesion in England from Thatcher through Blair and Brown to Cameron. Ironically, this resistance is also the programme of the Scottish Labour party, brutally traumatised by the experience of Blairism and New Labour. On almost all policy save constitutional matters, the two parties agree. But they hate each other too much to say so.

In the same way, Scottish views about how their nation should be governed show a stolid consistency across generations. For most of my working life, the polls have shown the wish for independence drifting up and down between 20 and 30%. Nothing , not even the years of hating Mrs Thatcher, seemed to change that significantly. Some polls taken in the present crisis show the figure rising slightly over that 30%. It's still a minority, and – unless something outrageous happens – it's almost impossible to imagine that Alex Salmond could create his clear majority for independence by 2014. And that cunning man – "sleekit" is a good Scottish word for him – must know that in his heart.

Many Scottish politicians, starting with John Smith and Donald Dewar, have talked about "the settled will of the Scottish people". Few have taken that will to its full conclusion. But, as a matter of fact, it has been broadly clear for about 40 years. It's really quite simple. The Scots want to run their own country as other small nations do. Most of them want to stay in the Union. They want a Scottish government that is not bossed about by London, and especially not by English politicians in parties most Scots did not vote for. As David – now Lord – Steel said a few years ago: "No self-respecting parliament can exist permanently on a grant from another parliament."

This preference has been around for much longer than people realise. Oddly, it was a main reason for Scottish Labour's initial hostility to devolution in the 1970s. This assembly would just be a talking shop, or so ran their line. They felt that if it had real powers to change the lives of working people in Scotland, that would be a different matter. Many non-political Scots agreed with that. They also saw that devolution had been invented to "dish the Nats" and not because Harold Wilson thought it was a good thing in itself. Those old anti-devolution campaigners predicted – rightly, as it turned out – that a Scottish Parliament, far from dishing the SNP, would eventually unlock the doors of power for them.

That proposal failed in 1979. Tony Blair revived devolution for Scotland and Wales and the Scottish referendum in 1997 produced a strong "yes". But the new Scottish Parliament, wonderfully open and democratic in its procedures, was still financed by a block grant from London and lacked control over some important areas – immigration, broadcasting, the coastal seabed among them. Within a year, public mutters began to suggest the Parliament needed wider powers if it was to command real respect. Slowly, the politicians responded. Wendy Alexander, for Scottish Labour, suggested a transfer of tax powers. In 2006, the Scottish Liberal Democrats called for "fiscal federalism" allowing Holyrood to raise and vary most taxes, perhaps even corporation and income taxes.

Then things began to move fast. The SNP formed a minority government in 2007, and won a crushing overall victory in May 2011. In response, the Westminster government drafted a new Scotland bill whose minor concessions, including control of airgun licences and speed limits, some borrowing powers, a right to modify some income tax, were already far behind the curve when they were published. The SNP retorted by demanding far higher borrowing rights, full control of taxes (including corporation tax), devolution of the Crown Estate (inshore seabed) and broadcasting.

This is what's now known as devo max. Its idea of "fiscal autonomy" means that Holyrood would set, raise and keep all taxes – remitting to London Scotland's share of common costs on foreign affairs and defence. As soon as this plan was published, it became widely popular. Why not? For the first time, somebody had put forward a scheme coming close to that long-standing, patient wish – "to run our own affairs as other nations do".

Today, the polls suggest that this version of devo max is supported by some 70% of Scottish voters. But the coalition parties and the Labour opposition in London are determined to keep it off the ballot paper. The SNP government will let it in by the back door in their referendum consultation document, due in 10 days' time.

And how does devo max fit with that persistence preference to stay within the Union? And what happens if the two wishes converge? If the majority's preference for full "federal" autonomy is blocked by London, won't independence appear in a quite different light – as a reluctant necessity, as the only means to reach that full self-government? That has to be one of the scenarios revolving in the Big Eck brain. Another, given Salmond's rare sense of political process, must be that devo max can also be seen as verging on "Independence Lite", which – given some predictable wrangles with London – can easily slide into independence full strength.

This weekend, an independent campaign was being organised in Edinburgh to fight for the "second question" – the one which so obviously corresponds to what most Scots want. By denying it and concentrating on the "Independence: Yes or No" choice, the coalition and the Unionist camp are backing into the trap. If Salmond runs his own consultative referendum including that second question, there would be a huge majority for sweeping change. If the coalition tries to impose its own referendum, Salmond could call for a boycott and render it meaningless – except as a poisonous abscess of mistrust between the two countries.

Independence means not being dependent. "Max-devolved" or sovereign, a new Scotland responsible for its own resources – and blunders – would be a far better partner for England. And the English would at last have to face their own problems: a decent nation grotesquely dominated by the interests of the rich south-east and the City of London. Giving the Scots what most of them want can also mean "England Arise!" This referendum is a historic chance for change – and not just for Scotland.

© 2012 Guardian News and Media Limited or its affiliated companies. All rights reserved.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/15/neal-ascherson-scottish-independence-salmond/print (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/15/neal-ascherson-scottish-independence-salmond/print)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Saturday 28 January 2012, 02:52:29 AM
interesting what ian said back at the start of this thread, that people should be moving towards integration not away from it - hadn't thought of it like that, couldn't agree more really
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Saturday 28 January 2012, 04:54:17 PM
Can tell you that me nor any of my mates support independence. It's no surprise that the dregs of Scottish society are the ones supporting it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Saturday 28 January 2012, 05:22:56 PM
Bad crack for us in the north of england if the scots really do want to be on there own.  We will be totally dominated by the south of england.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: ObiChrisKenobi on Saturday 28 January 2012, 05:58:52 PM
I'm all for Scottish independence, and you can add Welsh and Irish independence in to the pot to boot. IMO England is under represented in Westminster and foots the bill for the other countries while not getting the same benefits like free prescriptions, no tuition fees, drugs that are restricted in England due to cost but available in Scotland etc etc. The whole idea of the Union is past it's sell by date and devolution has only served to hasten the full break-up of it. It would have happened eventually. England should have it's own parliament and take control of her own affairs as should the other members of the union.

This isn't a racist thing by the way. Colour or religion don't come in to it. It's purely about people living in England, regardless of ethnicity, being ripped off by the rest of the UK.

Aye, be interesting to see how Scotland & Wales fund their own governments.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 29 January 2012, 12:55:20 PM
Where would scotland pull enough revenue from to support 5 million people, free education, free health care, millitary, social support and whatever else is needed for a modern western country.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: 80 on Sunday 29 January 2012, 01:03:22 PM
The Money Fairy, what are you stupid or something?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Sunday 29 January 2012, 01:07:00 PM
Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: neesy111 on Sunday 29 January 2012, 01:09:44 PM
Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Stu on Sunday 29 January 2012, 01:21:30 PM
Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.

Whisky and haggis farming
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: neesy111 on Sunday 29 January 2012, 01:30:14 PM
Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.

Whisky and haggis farming

True, but the amount of tax made on oil must supplement quite a bit of the scottish economy.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Incognito on Sunday 29 January 2012, 01:33:05 PM
Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.

Whisky and haggis farming

True, but the amount of tax made on oil must supplement quite a bit of the scottish economy.

They use most of the oil in their cooking don't they?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 29 January 2012, 01:53:40 PM
The Money Fairy, what are you stupid or something?

Stupid me aye.

But seriously, they'll have to have some serious reform if they think they can give all the pubilc "free" services.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Sunday 29 January 2012, 02:23:05 PM
Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.

Whisky and haggis farming

True, but the amount of tax made on oil must supplement quite a bit of the scottish economy.

Something that never seems to get mentioned is even if the oil ends up being under Scottish territorial waters, the companies who are exploiting it are not Scottish and will not choose to be, meaning that most of the profits from the oil would leave the country.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:13:05 PM
Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.

Whisky and haggis farming

True, but the amount of tax made on oil must supplement quite a bit of the scottish economy.

Something that never seems to get mentioned is even if the oil ends up being under Scottish territorial waters, the companies who are exploiting it are not Scottish and will not choose to be, meaning that most of the profits from the oil would leave the country.

Would the scots not then tax the oil companies appropraitely ?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: OzzieMandias on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:16:06 PM
There's going to be one hell of an argument about where the offshore boundary goes and which oilfields belong to which country.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: LesPaul on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:19:15 PM
If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:23:58 PM
If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: LesPaul on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:29:49 PM
If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.
Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:34:59 PM
If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.
Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: neesy111 on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:39:41 PM
They'll have some massive problems getting finance as well (the government of the new independent Scotland).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: LesPaul on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:41:01 PM
If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.
Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??


No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:44:34 PM
If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.
Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??


No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.

So where did all the money come from to suddenly start a massive building program?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: LesPaul on Sunday 29 January 2012, 03:48:59 PM
If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.
Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??


No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.

So where did all the money come from to suddenly start a massive building program?
We have a low corporation tax so there's a lot foreign companies here. Obviously some borrowing was required and we'd have been fine if people during the boom had been more careful with spending etc. What f***ed us up was people beeing able to take out a 110% + mortgage or mortgage top ups to afford a foreign holiday and/or new car. If we had better regulation of internal affairs we'd not be in this mess.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Sunday 29 January 2012, 04:01:01 PM
Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.

Whisky and haggis farming

True, but the amount of tax made on oil must supplement quite a bit of the scottish economy.

Something that never seems to get mentioned is even if the oil ends up being under Scottish territorial waters, the companies who are exploiting it are not Scottish and will not choose to be, meaning that most of the profits from the oil would leave the country.

Would the scots not then tax the oil companies appropraitely ?

Yeah, but there's more to live than taxes. Every major "Scottish" company will have a major decision to make about whether to remain British, or become Scottish and there'd be a significant risk in moving from one of the world's largest economies to a brand new country which would be starting from scratch. I don't think many will see that as being in their business interests and most will stay British and pay the majority of their taxes to the UK.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 29 January 2012, 04:45:00 PM
If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.
Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??


No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.

So where did all the money come from to suddenly start a massive building program?
We have a low corporation tax so there's a lot foreign companies here. Obviously some borrowing was required and we'd have been fine if people during the boom had been more careful with spending etc. What f***ed us up was people beeing able to take out a 110% + mortgage or mortgage top ups to afford a foreign holiday and/or new car. If we had better regulation of internal affairs we'd not be in this mess.

So where has all this industry gone?  Has the Irish gov had to put taxes up to make up for the short fall in the economy?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: LesPaul on Sunday 29 January 2012, 05:00:10 PM
If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.
Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??


No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.

So where did all the money come from to suddenly start a massive building program?
We have a low corporation tax so there's a lot foreign companies here. Obviously some borrowing was required and we'd have been fine if people during the boom had been more careful with spending etc. What f***ed us up was people beeing able to take out a 110% + mortgage or mortgage top ups to afford a foreign holiday and/or new car. If we had better regulation of internal affairs we'd not be in this mess.

So where has all this industry gone?  Has the Irish gov had to put taxes up to make up for the short fall in the economy?
The building industry collapsed because people started undercutting prices and were doing the job for less than they could afford and the arse fell out of it. Taxes have gone up alright.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: 80 on Monday 30 January 2012, 02:01:06 AM
The Money Fairy, what are you stupid or something?

Stupid me aye.

But seriously, they'll have to have some serious reform if they think they can give all the pubilc "free" services.

Knew you'd get chippy at that :lol: I agree with you. Even 'if' they got all the oil and it all went smooth as butter re: taxation, it wouldn't cover all the things they get now, let alone the extra stuff the SNP claim they could have. I made a post in the politics thread the other day which set out some stuff.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Monday 30 January 2012, 02:20:56 AM
one way to look at it is that we in the north get left with a tory government for years.

the other way is that we allow the shortbread tins independence then invade the t***s, aside from stepping round the sheep s*** it woulodn't be too difficuilt.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Monday 30 January 2012, 03:00:40 AM
A whole host of opportunities could appear for Newcastle being a border city. Places like Newry on the Irish border thrive with southern shoppers trying to escape the euro.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: The College Dropout on Monday 30 January 2012, 03:13:43 AM
Ireland also received a lot of support (and still do) from the EU during there boom and decline.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: johnnypd on Monday 30 January 2012, 03:29:16 AM
Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.

Whisky and haggis farming

True, but the amount of tax made on oil must supplement quite a bit of the scottish economy.

Something that never seems to get mentioned is even if the oil ends up being under Scottish territorial waters, the companies who are exploiting it are not Scottish and will not choose to be, meaning that most of the profits from the oil would leave the country.

Would the scots not then tax the oil companies appropraitely ?

Yeah, but there's more to live than taxes. Every major "Scottish" company will have a major decision to make about whether to remain British, or become Scottish and there'd be a significant risk in moving from one of the world's largest economies to a brand new country which would be starting from scratch. I don't think many will see that as being in their business interests and most will stay British and pay the majority of their taxes to the UK.

Wonder if Alex Salmond would answer the question of what would've happened had scotland been independent during the financial crisis - two of the world's top banks, and most affected banks, HBOS and RBS, were based in Scotland. It would've basically finished the country off to bail them out. the bailouts would've been many magnitudes larger than those needed in Ireland.

Scotland needs to admit they have the best of both worlds right now - ability to make their own policies and get the rest of the UK to help pay for it, or at least to shield scotland from the full-on financial consequences of their policies.

there'd be no such fiscal freedom in an independent state. all this free tuition, free prescription stuff isn't going to last once they have independence. personally having lived in scotland i think they've got it great - one last hold-out against the evil forces of neo-liberalism who seek to f*** over everything and turn all our cherished services into profit-driven entreprises. i used to think it was unfair that Scots got their university tuition for free, and it basically is unfair on the English students, but now i just see it as "oh well, at least there's one place that's not f***ed it up yet".

Then there's all the f***ing bureaucracy and mind-numbing minutiae that would have to be addressed and sorted out in the event of independence. not least for the hundreds and thousands of english in scotland and 800,000 scots in england. or anyone who frequently travels or does business in both countries. which is every company in the UK. and how do you divide up north sea fossil fuels? or the london-based companies who mine there? and the armed forces loyal to the Queen? what do they do with their currency? make a new one? then what happens if exchange rates fluctuate so that bread costs twice as much in gretna than in carlisle? basically they'd have to peg it to the UK pound sterling - so much for true independence there. maybe they'd join the Euro after all. superb timing that would be  :iamatwat: What about crossing the border - as a new EU nation will they sign up to Schengen? gonna need passport checks at Edinburgh Waverley then? It'll no doubt make moving house or moving jobs between one area of what is now the UK to another more of a hassle too.

Nah, it's a f***ing s*** idea when you get down to it, based on little more than a bloody mel gibson movie.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: johnnypd on Monday 30 January 2012, 03:38:57 AM
A whole host of opportunities could appear for Newcastle being a border city. Places like Newry on the Irish border thrive with southern shoppers trying to escape the euro.

it's not really though - Berwick is, Gretna is, Carlisle is to an extent. we're 50 miles from the border. and as the southern govt hate us they're never likely to give us a proper motorway to Edinburgh to speed up integration and connections between those two cities. c***s.

I think England would be eternally f***ed if scotland left. we work well together to limit the amount of elections the tories can win. without our scottish brethren i can't see the tories losing another election for decades.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Monday 30 January 2012, 07:54:28 AM
Quote
Knew you'd get chippy at that  I agree with you. Even 'if' they got all the oil and it all went smooth as butter re: taxation, it wouldn't cover all the things they get now, let alone the extra stuff the SNP claim they could have. I made a post in the politics thread the other day which set out some stuff.

I forgot to put my smiley in man  :lol:  Knew what you were getting at  :thup:
Title: Scottish Independence and the possible break-up of the Union
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 10:52:57 AM
Was a bit of interest in this in the Sunderland thread :lol: so have started a new thread about it.

Interested to hear opinions from everyone really, would be good to hear what you guys in England think about it and what you know about it. There is a lot of bluster from both camps at the moment although the YES campaign certainly seems to be operating with more integrity to me. The NO campaign appears to be focusing on things like the EU membership and using opportunities like that to discredit the campaign. I am more interested in the bigger picture personally although these smaller factors will obviously be very important. One thing I have noticed since I started to take a more focused interest in it is that the BBC is pretty shockingly one sided and they are making no bones about this.

Around a year ago I was marginally against voting for independence but after having a long think about it and doing some proper research into both sides of it I have decided almost certainly to vote yes unless something majorly changes in the next couple of years. There are various reasons for this and I'll just say now it has nothing to do with Mel Gibson and I am no big fan of the SNP(they have done better than I expected however).

At this point in time I don't think there will be enough votes to gain independence, mainly because of the inconvenience it will cause in the short-term for so many people which I can understand. I really hope it does happen though as something needs to change in Scotland, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 10:58:07 AM
 :thup: Will do a search next time!  :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - Whats Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:04:10 AM
Sorry. :blush:

Sadly, I've become pro-Independence.  It's mainly because I feel we need to get as far away from the Tories/Establishment as we can.  I don't think we'll survive very well, but I like Scotland's politics, we're a very socialist nation.  And let's face it, it can't be any worse than being part of the Tories Victorian Britain agenda.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:07:48 AM
Sorry. :blush:

Sadly, I've become pro-Independence.  It's mainly because I feel we need to get as far away from the Tories/Establishment as we can.  I don't think we'll survive very well, but I like Scotland's politics, we're a very socialist nation.  And let's face it, it can't be any worse than being part of the Tories Victorian Britain agenda.

Certainly one of my reasons for it too Bluf, this belief that we can't survive on our own though I think is a mis-conception and I know where it comes from.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:12:18 AM
I just mean, we'll be a small insignificant nation.  It's probably just a hangover from the "World Player" Britain of the last, well, of my whole life, but I've little to believe we'd actually do well.  We do as well as we do just now because we're in the Union.  If we leave, I doubt free prescriptions, council tax freezes for 5 years etc are going to be as easy to maintain.  I don't like how much we're hinging our hopes on Europe, who are, quite frankly, as corrupt as they come and I want nothing to do with the EU in its current form. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:12:24 AM
I'm not Scottish and I don't really have any strong affection for 'Great Britain' either, but I think it's a shame that we are talking about splitting nations up even further instead of banding together more closely. The future is an interconnected world where what country someone is from is increasingly irrelevant.

For political reasons if I was Scottish I would probably want independence to guarantee a Labour government. It will be poorer and northern areas of England that suffer most from generations of Tory rule that doesn't care about or need to consider them to get elected.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:19:06 AM
I'm not Scottish and I don't really have any strong affection for 'Great Britain' either, but I think it's a shame that we are talking about splitting nations up even further instead of banding together more closely. The future is an interconnected world where what country someone is from is increasingly irrelevant.

For political reasons if I was Scottish I would probably want independence to guarantee a Labour government. It will be poorer and northern areas of England that suffer most from generations of Tory rule that doesn't care about or need to consider them to get elected.

I hope independence will guarantee new parties and new ways of thinking. I want decisions about Scotland to be made in Scotland. I don't think westminster really has any idea what it's like in the highlands of Scotland for example. Keep it small and you can manage it better.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:20:46 AM
I just mean, we'll be a small insignificant nation.  It's probably just a hangover from the "World Player" Britain of the last, well, of my whole life, but I've little to believe we'd actually do well.  We do as well as we do just now because we're in the Union.  If we leave, I doubt free prescriptions, council tax freezes for 5 years etc are going to be as easy to maintain.  I don't like how much we're hinging our hopes on Europe, who are, quite frankly, as corrupt as they come and I want nothing to do with the EU in its current form. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/oct/30/global-prosperity-index-usa-economy?fb=native (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/oct/30/global-prosperity-index-usa-economy?fb=native)

I'm not saying this is 100% credible or whatever but looking at that countries I would say are of similar size/potential to Scotland are doing rather well. As for the EU thing I agree but there is no real alternative is there?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:20:54 AM
Fair point, I can see a lot of reasons why residents might go for it.

TBF though, Scottish constituencies send MPs the same as people in Moss Side or North Shields. I doubt 'Westminster' as a whole has any idea about those places either, but it's the MPs job to represent their interests.

I know it doesn't really work, obviously.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Incognito on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 01:23:03 PM
Despite what Cameron says about keeping the Union intact, it's actually an English  Tory's dream scenario for Scotland to become independent. So I hope Scotland says a resounding no to Independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: garth on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 01:28:55 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: cp40 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 01:30:20 PM
Its good, I'll only have to travel 60 miles to go abroad.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 01:46:34 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: garth on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 01:50:33 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 01:54:12 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: garth on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:03:40 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Well I'm not going to debate on this as I don't really know that much about UK politics. All I can say is I can't see the problem with them being independent. I mean if you say their part of the UK, then same could be said about all the European countries.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:09:19 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Well I'm not going to debate on this as I don't really know that much about UK politics. All I can say is I can't see the problem with them being independent. I mean if you say their part of the UK, then same could be said about all the European countries.
not really. european countries can make their own laws etc, as can the UK, of which scotland is a part. it was an independent nation in the past, as was Northumbria, wessex,cornwall etc.

the way some go on you'd think scotland was an occupied seperate state.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:10:16 PM
Now there's an idea!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:12:50 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:13:00 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Well I'm not going to debate on this as I don't really know that much about UK politics. All I can say is I can't see the problem with them being independent. I mean if you say their part of the UK, then same could be said about all the European countries.
not really. european countries can make their own laws etc, as can the UK, of which scotland is a part. it was an independent nation in the past, as was Northumbria, wessex,cornwall etc.

the way some go on you'd think scotland was an occupied seperate state.

When you daft c***s let the tories in time and again, believe me, it feels like it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:15:56 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:24:56 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Well I'm not going to debate on this as I don't really know that much about UK politics. All I can say is I can't see the problem with them being independent. I mean if you say their part of the UK, then same could be said about all the European countries.
not really. european countries can make their own laws etc, as can the UK, of which scotland is a part. it was an independent nation in the past, as was Northumbria, wessex,cornwall etc.

the way some go on you'd think scotland was an occupied seperate state.

When you daft c***s let the tories in time and again, believe me, it feels like it.
well it was jocks that f***ed the labour party wasn't it (blair, brown) ? :p
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:29:36 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Well I'm not going to debate on this as I don't really know that much about UK politics. All I can say is I can't see the problem with them being independent. I mean if you say their part of the UK, then same could be said about all the European countries.
not really. european countries can make their own laws etc, as can the UK, of which scotland is a part. it was an independent nation in the past, as was Northumbria, wessex,cornwall etc.

the way some go on you'd think scotland was an occupied seperate state.

When you daft c***s let the tories in time and again, believe me, it feels like it.
well it was jocks that f***ed the labour party wasn't it (blair, brown) ? :p

:lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:31:23 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:32:45 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
no you aren't. you're part of the UK.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:34:56 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
no you aren't. you're part of the UK.

So are you not english then?

By definition I'm sure you are correct Madras fair enough, but why would we even be having a referendum if we are not considered a seperate nation?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:40:00 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
no you aren't. you're part of the UK.

So are you not english then?
yes, and a geordie and a novcastrian, though it says none of them on my passport.

conversely, if you were a seperate nation you wouldn't need a referendum to become seperate.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: PCW1983 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:47:34 PM
Does Scottish Independence mean that Scotland will be truly independent? Or is it just independent on paper.  By that i mean will the United Kingdom still exist? 

If thats what they want then fair enough but for me if they vote for independence than i truly hope that its complete, as in no longer part of the UK and no affiliation to the UK's resources. 

I would hate to think that England, Wales and NI would be contributing towards Scotland's well being in any other way than the way we may or may not currently be doing with the EU and for the record i hope its vice/versa too.

Just for the record though, i think its a bad idea.  We need each other more than either party would care to admit IMO.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:49:29 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
no you aren't. you're part of the UK.

So are you not english then?

By definition I'm sure you are correct Madras fair enough, but why would we even be having a referendum if we are not considered a seperate nation?

This is where the Yes camp lose me.  I'm not going to bang on about "we're a separate nation" stuff.  We are the UK, ideologically, I love the principle behind the Union, I love what Britain can and has been, the Olympic spirit was a good example of us coming together, but the Tories are driving us out.  They want it, and, well, we're fed up with them, so even some of the more loyal Scots to the Union are questioning why we should still put up with this s***.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:50:22 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:51:20 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
no you aren't. you're part of the UK.

So are you not english then?

By definition I'm sure you are correct Madras fair enough, but why would we even be having a referendum if we are not considered a seperate nation?

This is where the Yes camp lose me.  I'm not going to bang on about "we're a separate nation" stuff.  We are the UK, ideologically, I love the principle behind the Union, I love what Britain can and has been, the Olympic spirit was a good example of us coming together, but the Tories are driving us out.  They want it, and, well, we're fed up with them, so even some of the more loyal Scots to the Union are questioning why we should still put up with this s***.

The queen does not want the break up of the Union.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:51:21 PM
Does Scottish Independence mean that Scotland will be truly independent? Or is it just independent on paper.  By that i mean will the United Kingdom still exist? 

If thats what they want then fair enough but for me if they vote for independence than i truly hope that its complete, as in no longer part of the UK and no affiliation to the UK's resources. 

I would hate to think that England, Wales and NI would be contributing towards Scotland's well being in any other way than the way we may or may not currently be doing with the EU and for the record i hope its vice/versa too.

Just for the record though, i think its a bad idea.  We need each other more than either party would care to admit IMO.

It would be a complete split.  We'd no longer be part of the UK, although the Queen would still be our head of state.  Which is beginning to fracture the Yes camp a bit, I certainly don't want to bring those leeches with us. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: PCW1983 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:52:04 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.

Without sounding sarcastic, can/could Scotland survive on its own? 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:52:06 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
no you aren't. you're part of the UK.

So are you not english then?

By definition I'm sure you are correct Madras fair enough, but why would we even be having a referendum if we are not considered a seperate nation?

This is where the Yes camp lose me.  I'm not going to bang on about "we're a separate nation" stuff.  We are the UK, ideologically, I love the principle behind the Union, I love what Britain can and has been, the Olympic spirit was a good example of us coming together, but the Tories are driving us out.  They want it, and, well, we're fed up with them, so even some of the more loyal Scots to the Union are questioning why we should still put up with this s***.

The queen does not want the break up of the Union.

She's as Tory as they come, mate.  She wants it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:52:48 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.

Not really, Salmond and his party have said they would keep stirling as the currency, would keep the queen as head of state and retain the same army with the remianing UK.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:53:40 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
no you aren't. you're part of the UK.

So are you not english then?

By definition I'm sure you are correct Madras fair enough, but why would we even be having a referendum if we are not considered a seperate nation?

This is where the Yes camp lose me.  I'm not going to bang on about "we're a separate nation" stuff.  We are the UK, ideologically, I love the principle behind the Union, I love what Britain can and has been, the Olympic spirit was a good example of us coming together, but the Tories are driving us out.  They want it, and, well, we're fed up with them, so even some of the more loyal Scots to the Union are questioning why we should still put up with this s***.

The queen does not want the break up of the Union.

She's as Tory as they come, mate.  She wants it.

Nah, a tory on question time let slip that she is dead against it, then he had to back track massively when Dimbleby pulled hiim saying the queen has no power anymore.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:55:36 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.

Not really, Salmond and his party have said they would keep stirling as the currency, would keep the queen as head of state and retain the same army with the remianing UK.



Not true, we're going to establish a Scottish Defence Force, and pay something like £1.6b less a year for than we do contributing to the UK's armed forces. 

The only tricky issue is keeping the Sterling pound, which Osbourne has already given hints to that he's going to f*** the Scots about.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:56:24 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
no you aren't. you're part of the UK.

So are you not english then?

By definition I'm sure you are correct Madras fair enough, but why would we even be having a referendum if we are not considered a seperate nation?

This is where the Yes camp lose me.  I'm not going to bang on about "we're a separate nation" stuff.  We are the UK, ideologically, I love the principle behind the Union, I love what Britain can and has been, the Olympic spirit was a good example of us coming together, but the Tories are driving us out.  They want it, and, well, we're fed up with them, so even some of the more loyal Scots to the Union are questioning why we should still put up with this s***.

The queen does not want the break up of the Union.

She's as Tory as they come, mate.  She wants it.

Nah, a tory on question time let slip that she is dead against it, then he had to back track massively when Dimbleby pulled hiim saying the queen has no power anymore.

I think we've established in the Royal thread she has more power than they let on. 

She may well be against it, but I'm not sure why you quoted my post and told me though anyway. :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: pi_D on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:56:47 PM
I'm not Scottish and I don't really have any strong affection for 'Great Britain' either, but I think it's a shame that we are talking about splitting nations up even further instead of banding together more closely. The future is an interconnected world where what country someone is from is increasingly irrelevant.

For political reasons if I was Scottish I would probably want independence to guarantee a Labour government. It will be poorer and northern areas of England that suffer most from generations of Tory rule that doesn't care about or need to consider them to get elected.

I also agree that countries should be comming together rather than seperating.

However in this case it's important to remember the premise that the Act of Union was created under. It is in essence an imperialist Union designed to let England have greater economic and military control over its weaker neighbours. I think it was the Darian Project that bankrupted Scotland, then England came along with the Union... :D

Anyway, I agree that countries should be coming together but I'd be assuming that Scotland doesn't feel they entered this union freely, it wasn't really a mutual thing afaik.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:56:49 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.

Without sounding sarcastic, can/could Scotland survive on its own? 

I'll say it again, it cannot be any worse than living in Tory Britain.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:57:29 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.

Without sounding sarcastic, can/could Scotland survive on its own? 

Well this is one of the big debates, the evidence I have seen would suggest we can, others will say we can't.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:57:39 PM
I'm not Scottish and I don't really have any strong affection for 'Great Britain' either, but I think it's a shame that we are talking about splitting nations up even further instead of banding together more closely. The future is an interconnected world where what country someone is from is increasingly irrelevant.

For political reasons if I was Scottish I would probably want independence to guarantee a Labour government. It will be poorer and northern areas of England that suffer most from generations of Tory rule that doesn't care about or need to consider them to get elected.

I also agree that countries should be comming together rather than seperating.

However in this case it's important to remember the premise that the Act of Union was created under. It is in essence an imperialist Union designed to let England have greater economic and military control over its weaker neighbours. I think it was the Darian Project that bankrupted Scotland, then England came along with the Union... :D

Anyway, I agree that countries should be coming together but I'd be assuming that Scotland doesn't feel they entered this union freely, it wasn't really a mutual thing afaik.

This is the truth.  England has all the power.  We're not equal players, the economic power of London proves this in spades.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:58:39 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.

Not really, Salmond and his party have said they would keep stirling as the currency, would keep the queen as head of state and retain the same army with the remianing UK.



Not true, we're going to establish a Scottish Defence Force, and pay something like £1.6b less a year for than we do contributing to the UK's armed forces. 

The only tricky issue is keeping the Sterling pound, which Osbourne has already given hints to that he's going to f*** the Scots about.

It would still be our own sterling anyway I thought?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 02:59:33 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.

Not really, Salmond and his party have said they would keep stirling as the currency, would keep the queen as head of state and retain the same army with the remianing UK.



Not true, we're going to establish a Scottish Defence Force, and pay something like £1.6b less a year for than we do contributing to the UK's armed forces. 

The only tricky issue is keeping the Sterling pound, which Osbourne has already given hints to that he's going to f*** the Scots about.

Interesting...didn't know that.

Not sure why Osborne would f*** Scotland about with sterling, just seems spiteful.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:00:25 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.

Not really, Salmond and his party have said they would keep stirling as the currency, would keep the queen as head of state and retain the same army with the remianing UK.



Not true, we're going to establish a Scottish Defence Force, and pay something like £1.6b less a year for than we do contributing to the UK's armed forces. 

The only tricky issue is keeping the Sterling pound, which Osbourne has already given hints to that he's going to f*** the Scots about.

It would still be our own sterling anyway I thought?

I'm not big on money matters, but it's controlled by the Bank of England, the interest rates etc.  All I know is, it's not going to be simple on that front.  Obviously Salmond never wanted this, he'd planned for his referendum years ago when the Eurozone wasn't so evidently going to collapse.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: PCW1983 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:01:31 PM
Who keeps the rights to the oil?  :mike:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:01:49 PM
I'm not Scottish and I don't really have any strong affection for 'Great Britain' either, but I think it's a shame that we are talking about splitting nations up even further instead of banding together more closely. The future is an interconnected world where what country someone is from is increasingly irrelevant.

For political reasons if I was Scottish I would probably want independence to guarantee a Labour government. It will be poorer and northern areas of England that suffer most from generations of Tory rule that doesn't care about or need to consider them to get elected.

I also agree that countries should be comming together rather than seperating.

However in this case it's important to remember the premise that the Act of Union was created under. It is in essence an imperialist Union designed to let England have greater economic and military control over its weaker neighbours. I think it was the Darian Project that bankrupted Scotland, then England came along with the Union... :D

Anyway, I agree that countries should be coming together but I'd be assuming that Scotland doesn't feel they entered this union freely, it wasn't really a mutual thing afaik.

This is the truth.  England has all the power.  We're not equal players, the economic power of London proves this in spades.

Pretty much it...

The crowns were merged first then Scotland backrupted itself by trying to create colonies in the new world.  Lots of Barons and loards lost money then England offered them their money back if they merged parliments.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:01:53 PM
We'd be completely seperate, our own everything if you know what I mean.

Not really, Salmond and his party have said they would keep stirling as the currency, would keep the queen as head of state and retain the same army with the remianing UK.



Not true, we're going to establish a Scottish Defence Force, and pay something like £1.6b less a year for than we do contributing to the UK's armed forces. 

The only tricky issue is keeping the Sterling pound, which Osbourne has already given hints to that he's going to f*** the Scots about.

Interesting...didn't know that.

Not sure why Osborne would f*** Scotland about with sterling, just seems spiteful.

I get that feeling because Salmond said there'd be no change in currency, then Osborne released a statement, or aqppeared on a show, whatever, saying it wouldn't be that simple, that they'd have to accept different rates of interest.  I turn off when it comes to money matters.  It's not really real to people like us.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:01:53 PM
I can't see what's the problem is with Scottish independence, same goes for Wales. Your still going to rely on each other economically. Just they will have a say in the running of their country, so it should be!
they already have a say in the running of their "country".

How much do they have in running their country? I mean they don't have their own customs and excise, army, navy etc. Which they should have.
as much as england has. there is a UK, of which they are part, army,navy, customs and excise etc.

Scotland didn't vote for tories yet we are still ruled by them overall, how is that right?

That's democracy though isn't it? I bet most of Tyneside didn't vote for the Tories either, but they abide by the result of the election like anyone.

We are a seperate country though, surely that's the difference?
no you aren't. you're part of the UK.

So are you not english then?

By definition I'm sure you are correct Madras fair enough, but why would we even be having a referendum if we are not considered a seperate nation?

This is where the Yes camp lose me.  I'm not going to bang on about "we're a separate nation" stuff.  We are the UK, ideologically, I love the principle behind the Union, I love what Britain can and has been, the Olympic spirit was a good example of us coming together, but the Tories are driving us out.  They want it, and, well, we're fed up with them, so even some of the more loyal Scots to the Union are questioning why we should still put up with this s***.

The nationalism stuff doesn't bother me either way Bluf, I think most normal people don't really care about it that much. The union is a nice principle I agree with that but the UK has so much s*** attached to it's shoes now I'd be happy not be associated with it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: pi_D on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:03:30 PM
I'm not Scottish and I don't really have any strong affection for 'Great Britain' either, but I think it's a shame that we are talking about splitting nations up even further instead of banding together more closely. The future is an interconnected world where what country someone is from is increasingly irrelevant.

For political reasons if I was Scottish I would probably want independence to guarantee a Labour government. It will be poorer and northern areas of England that suffer most from generations of Tory rule that doesn't care about or need to consider them to get elected.

I also agree that countries should be comming together rather than seperating.

However in this case it's important to remember the premise that the Act of Union was created under. It is in essence an imperialist Union designed to let England have greater economic and military control over its weaker neighbours. I think it was the Darian Project that bankrupted Scotland, then England came along with the Union... :D

Anyway, I agree that countries should be coming together but I'd be assuming that Scotland doesn't feel they entered this union freely, it wasn't really a mutual thing afaik.

This is the truth.  England has all the power.  We're not equal players, the economic power of London proves this in spades.

Pretty much it...

The crowns were merged first then Scotland backrupted itself by trying to create colonies in the new world.  Lots of Barons and loards lost money then England offered them their money back if they merged parliments.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme)


Tragic on many levels.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:03:39 PM
Who keeps the rights to the oil?  :mike:

They say Scotland will keep the oil in Scottish waters.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:03:40 PM
Who keeps the rights to the oil?  :mike:

Pfft, what f***ing oil.  There's barely f*** all left, hence us having to do deals with the likes of Russia et all.  It's a red herring of an argument.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:04:01 PM
I'm not Scottish and I don't really have any strong affection for 'Great Britain' either, but I think it's a shame that we are talking about splitting nations up even further instead of banding together more closely. The future is an interconnected world where what country someone is from is increasingly irrelevant.

For political reasons if I was Scottish I would probably want independence to guarantee a Labour government. It will be poorer and northern areas of England that suffer most from generations of Tory rule that doesn't care about or need to consider them to get elected.

I also agree that countries should be comming together rather than seperating.

However in this case it's important to remember the premise that the Act of Union was created under. It is in essence an imperialist Union designed to let England have greater economic and military control over its weaker neighbours. I think it was the Darian Project that bankrupted Scotland, then England came along with the Union... :D

Anyway, I agree that countries should be coming together but I'd be assuming that Scotland doesn't feel they entered this union freely, it wasn't really a mutual thing afaik.

This is the truth.  England has all the power.  We're not equal players, the economic power of London proves this in spades.

Pretty much it...

The crowns were merged first then Scotland backrupted itself by trying to create colonies in the new world.  Lots of Barons and loards lost money then England offered them their money back if they merged parliments.



:thup:

And this only ever gets fixed by abolishing the monarchy and implementing a federal system like most other democracies in the world.  But, asif.

The Royals bring in so much tourism money. :yao:

You guys have your tourism, and we'll have our country.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:14:19 PM
Who keeps the rights to the oil?  :mike:

Pfft, what f***ing oil.  There's barely f*** all left, hence us having to do deals with the likes of Russia et all.  It's a red herring of an argument.

 :thup: People keep getting fixated on the oil, pisses me off.

Diomhair prt1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saqQnj0LKlQ#ws)

Good documentary about the whole thing here, it's in Gaidhlig though so fair play if yous can't be arsed watching it.  :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:22:02 PM
My thoughts, because I'm sure y'all care what an American thinks :lol: :

1. Scotland could survive on its own.

2. Both Scotland and the rest of the UK are stronger together than they would be apart.

3. As far as I can tell, majority of Scots don't want independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:24:39 PM
My thoughts, because I'm sure y'all care what an American thinks :lol: :

1. Scotland could survive on its own.

2. Both Scotland and the rest of the UK are stronger together than they would be apart.

3. As far as I can tell, majority of Scots don't want independence.


Think you're pretty much spot on, I'd argue the second part, plenty of people would support your view though.

An interesting thing I was reading about the other day was how the US are viewing the whole thing,
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/as-others-see-us-the-view-from-the-united-states.2012112643  (http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/as-others-see-us-the-view-from-the-united-states.2012112643.)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: PCW1983 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:26:12 PM
Who keeps the rights to the oil?  :mike:

Pfft, what f***ing oil.  There's barely f*** all left, hence us having to do deals with the likes of Russia et all.  It's a red herring of an argument.

 :thup: People keep getting fixated on the oil, pisses me off.

Diomhair prt1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saqQnj0LKlQ#ws)

Good documentary about the whole thing here, it's in Gaidhlig though so fair play if yous can't be arsed watching it.  :lol:

Im not obsessed with it, however it is obviously a major detail so you can see why the question would be asked.

Watched the first 4 minutes then stopped, its like something out of the middle east :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:28:38 PM
Secessionist movements in the developed world are pretty interesting. Scotland and Quebec being the two most prominent. But even then, those two are still pretty unlikely to result in independence.

Belgium would seem a natural place for a split, but the Flemish and Walloons are kinda stuck together by the importance of Brussels to the international community (UN, NATO).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: loki679 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:29:09 PM
Is there any realistic way the NE could go with them?  I wouldn't want to be left in what will essentially be Toryland.  Suppose the scousers and the mancs will have to fend for themselves but you could make room for us, right?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:29:45 PM
It seems so pointless for people to want to carve up their own little slice of the world to call their own. I'm aware this is a bit of an out-there thought, and that it's easy for an English person to say as well.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:31:33 PM
Is there any realistic way the NE could go with them?  I wouldn't want to be left in what will essentially be Toryland.  Suppose the scousers and the mancs will have to fend for themselves but you could make room for us, right?

I'd honestly love it.  Would show the establishment what the rest of Britain REALLY think.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: garth on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:31:47 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: PCW1983 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:32:21 PM
Also, could we have our money back for RBS and HBOS  :aww:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:32:38 PM
It seems so pointless for people to want to carve up their own little slice of the world to call their own. I'm aware this is a bit of an out-there thought, and that it's easy for an English person to say as well.

I'm a unionist at heart, and in theory, I'd love to consider myself European, too, but at the moment, I don't want to be part of either.  Evil b******s, particularly in this age of austerity.  They've all clubbed together, whilst the rich get richer.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:33:11 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: loki679 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:33:22 PM
Is there any realistic way the NE could go with them?  I wouldn't want to be left in what will essentially be Toryland.  Suppose the scousers and the mancs will have to fend for themselves but you could make room for us, right?

I'd honestly love it.  Would show the establishment what the rest of Britain REALLY think.

We've got way more in common with the Scots than the English, it would make sense.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:33:43 PM
It seems so pointless for people to want to carve up their own little slice of the world to call their own. I'm aware this is a bit of an out-there thought, and that it's easy for an English person to say as well.

I'm a unionist at heart, and in theory, I'd love to consider myself European, too, but at the moment, I don't want to be part of either.  Evil b******s, particularly in this age of austerity.  They've all clubbed together, whilst the rich get richer.

Are Scottish politicians and bankers altruistic in nature though?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Nobody on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:34:06 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?
Because they'd lose their only realistic chance of winning Wimbledon.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: garth on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:35:27 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Disco on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:35:46 PM
North East will likely turn further to s*** if Scotland does one so I'm against it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: PCW1983 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:35:49 PM
Is there any realistic way the NE could go with them?  I wouldn't want to be left in what will essentially be Toryland.  Suppose the scousers and the mancs will have to fend for themselves but you could make room for us, right?

I'd honestly love it.  Would show the establishment what the rest of Britain REALLY think.

We've got way more in common with the Scots than the English, it would make sense.

Do we?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:36:28 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Heake on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:37:28 PM
I think they`ve got a massively over-inflated opinion of themselves. Other than mebeze a light bulb & ginger hair I cant see that they`ve mad much of a contribution to the development of the human race.

Go north of Glasgow & its largely uninhabited anyway, isnt it?

I think we should let them form a government with the isle of Man as a compromise.




Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:37:54 PM
It seems so pointless for people to want to carve up their own little slice of the world to call their own. I'm aware this is a bit of an out-there thought, and that it's easy for an English person to say as well.

I'm a unionist at heart, and in theory, I'd love to consider myself European, too, but at the moment, I don't want to be part of either.  Evil b******s, particularly in this age of austerity.  They've all clubbed together, whilst the rich get richer.

Are Scottish politicians and bankers altruistic in nature though?

Haw haw, no way they are!  But, it's a smaller cocoon, things are a lot more controllable in smaller chunks.  And as I've said, we have a very socialist electorate, so the balance will, for the foreseeable future, be in that half.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:38:22 PM
It seems so pointless for people to want to carve up their own little slice of the world to call their own. I'm aware this is a bit of an out-there thought, and that it's easy for an English person to say as well.

I'm a unionist at heart, and in theory, I'd love to consider myself European, too, but at the moment, I don't want to be part of either.  Evil b******s, particularly in this age of austerity.  They've all clubbed together, whilst the rich get richer.

Are Scottish politicians and bankers altruistic in nature though?

Far from it, can keep a closer eye on them here though.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:38:25 PM
I think they`ve got a massively over-inflated opinion of themselves. Other than mebeze a light bulb & ginger hair I cant see that they`ve mad much of a contribution to the development of the human race.

Go north of Glasgow & its largely uninhabited anyway, isnt it?

I think we should let them form a government with the isle of Man as a compromise.






:facepalm:

Not even touching this.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: PCW1983 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:39:42 PM
I think they`ve got a massively over-inflated opinion of themselves. Other than mebeze a light bulb & ginger hair I cant see that they`ve mad much of a contribution to the development of the human race.

Go north of Glasgow & its largely uninhabited anyway, isnt it?

I think we should let them form a government with the isle of Man as a compromise.






:facepalm:

Not even touching this.

Spoiler
[close]
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[close]
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:41:12 PM
I'm not sure that a smaller nation makes it more likely that the top 1% of people will be more accountable.

The parliament will be geographically closer to the people, that's true obviously. And it will be uninfluenced by the needs of England and the make-up of the electorate south of the border, which again could be an advantage if you're Labour yourself.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:41:32 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?
Because they'd lose their only realistic chance of winning Wimbledon.

:lol: :thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:44:29 PM
Is there any realistic way the NE could go with them?  I wouldn't want to be left in what will essentially be Toryland.  Suppose the scousers and the mancs will have to fend for themselves but you could make room for us, right?

I'd honestly love it.  Would show the establishment what the rest of Britain REALLY think.

We've got way more in common with the Scots than the English, it would make sense.

Do we?

As a Scot I defintely think you do. I feel at home with Geordies pretty much, been to most parts of england I have never found that. Even though Manchester is 'north' I find them completely different to you guys.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:45:29 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

They certainly were anyway http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/3577-mccrone-and-the-trust-of-the-scottish-people (http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/3577-mccrone-and-the-trust-of-the-scottish-people)
Also why would they be so keen to keep us if they aren't?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 03:46:22 PM
I've always felt Geordie first of all, I only think of myself as English when there's football/rugby really.

I'm not sure, but I would guess that most people identify with their region more than their country anyway, except maybe in the home counties where everything is basically the same and the pull of London is very strong.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Varadi on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 04:48:42 PM
My wife is Scottish - would I be able to apply for dual nationality??
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Toondave on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 05:11:56 PM
I thought it would be nice to go with Scotland, I never really think of myself as English. I see England as being southern England dont know why.

but then it hit me, it'd be catastrophic. We'd have to play in the spl
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 05:13:43 PM
My wife is Scottish - would I be able to apply for dual nationality??

I guess so.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 07:25:10 PM
North East will likely turn further to s*** if Scotland does one so I'm against it.

Is there not a chance that if Scotland was to do well economically as an independent country, then any ripple effect could be a positive thing for the North East of England?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 07:26:07 PM
My wife is Scottish - would I be able to apply for dual nationality??

Not if you're a Sassenach c***, no. There'd be ethnic cleansing to take care of first.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: cp40 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 07:53:02 PM
North East will likely turn further to s*** if Scotland does one so I'm against it.

Is there not a chance that if Scotland was to do well economically as an independent country, then any ripple effect could be a positive thing for the North East of England?

they will all be coming down here for the cheap booze. Im thinking of buying a caravan at whitley bay feathers as an investment.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Dave on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 07:54:57 PM
Really struggling to care about this, even though I know I probably should for some reason.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: macphisto on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 08:06:30 PM
I really couldn't care if they went alone or not, in my experience I haven't found Scottish people that friendly when in Scotland. Certainly feel closer to other English people than I do to the Scots.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Slarth on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 08:43:25 PM
I really couldn't care if they went alone or not, in my experience I haven't found Scottish people that friendly when in Scotland. Certainly feel closer to other English people than I do to the Scots.

I agree with you and I'm scottish.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 09:02:49 PM
Shocking state of affairs
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: cp40 on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 09:06:07 PM
Shocking state of affairs


whats thier fidelity got to do with it?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: MKSC on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 09:21:54 PM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 09:39:56 PM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

How is it out dated? Wtf
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TheGuv on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 10:18:57 PM
As others have said I don't want the Jocks to go on the basis that the North East of England would become littered with ghost towns.

To be honest, i don't think it will happen anyway.

If it doesn't go ahead will that be it done for the next 20 or so years?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 10:37:22 PM
There is a strong chance the north east would do very well out of it actually. My town is on the Irish border and the trade here is crazy with people doing 600 mile round trips just to use our shopping centres. 30,000 people live in Newry and it's Sainsburys is one of the most profitable in the UK because of this. I'm not saying the streets are paved with gold here, but Newry does so much better than other towns in N.Ireland simply because of the border, the area is expanding very rapidly as well because of it. There are many other positives of being along the border of a Eurozone country.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:32:20 PM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Matt on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:36:36 PM
I'm amazed at the opinion polls even being close, the vast majority of Scots I've met have no intention of voting for independence and see Salmond as a slimy b******, but one who has proved useful in getting a good deal for Scotland out of Westminster.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:39:43 PM
What happens if Scotland says no then in terms of the SNP's drive for independence. I'm guessing they can't campaign for another referendum for quite some time?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 19 December 2012, 11:43:56 PM
What happens if Scotland says no then in terms of the SNP's drive for independence. I'm guessing they can't campaign for another referendum for quite some time?

Good question, not sure. Doubt there's any rules but westminster surely wouldn't agree to it?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Thursday 20 December 2012, 01:46:07 AM
I'm starting to think that from a Scottish perspective I'm tempted, from a geordie perspective, it would be disastrous.  The main thing for me is proper self-government, Scotland is clearly politically distinct from England. I much prefer the political attitude and the way things are run in Scotland, that's what they vote for, but it's constrained by a British government that doesn't really have any mandate there. An independent Scotland could be the truly progressive state that they overwhelmingly vote for.  However, from an English perspective, that leaves us to be f***ed by neoliberal homophobic southerners for eternity.

I also think as the EU grows tighter, independence will be less of a big deal anyway. I mean you don't need a passport to travel from Northern Ireland to the Republic, or from France to Spain.

What happens if Scotland says no then in terms of the SNP's drive for independence. I'm guessing they can't campaign for another referendum for quite some time?

Good question, not sure. Doubt there's any rules but westminster surely wouldn't agree to it?

It got to referendum in the 70s and the defeat killed it off for a good while.


Also, note, voting for independence does not mean voting for Salmond.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 02:15:37 AM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Thursday 20 December 2012, 02:32:18 AM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Offshore on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:13:25 AM
Good and interesting thread this.

Got a strong feeling that once the results for the referendum are in then we'll see a clear majority for the 'YES' vote.

For the last 23 years or so i've been working in the oil industry, all bar 6 or so of those years off Aberdeen.
When I first started here the SNP were one of the 4 main parties but certainly not the primary party they are now, guys I worked with were not that overly bothered about independance.
Fast forward 15'ish years and the SNP are in power (is that two elections in a row?) and give no sign of losing popularity, the Scottish labour party is treading water at best and the other two - tories and lib/dems are near enough wiped out.
Now, whenever the subject of independence comes up the vast majority of the Scots onboard are either a straight yes to 'YES', or at worst a 'aye, it cannae be any worse!!'.

Now I realise that my own 'exit' poll results/observations don't exactly measure up to MORI standards but given the fact that the SNP (despite having Alex Sammond as head) have been re-elected shows that the majority of Scots must infact be in favour of their policies, the main one being self determination and independence.

One of the main sources of income for an independent Scotland would be the oil revenue and contrary to some of the scare-mongering newspaper headlines there is still plenty of it around to be tapped below the seabed. The oil companies have surveyed the North Sea and surrounding areas to death over the years, they've known where the oil is but at that time it was easier and more economical to drill and process the easier and shallower  to surface oilfields. However as technology has advanced over the years these previously out of reach fields are now drillable as so will continue to give a decent return for Scotlands exchequer for years to come.

If/when Scotland does become a country in its own right, then as long as it doesn't affect my employment - which i'm 99.9% sure wouldn't happen due anyway, then i'm quite open-minded to Scotland going it alone - mind you, i've still got a black & white tartan toon scarf just in case!!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:35:58 AM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:56:00 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/fj8pZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Incognito on Thursday 20 December 2012, 07:22:08 AM
Can Ronaldo be renamed talksport for s***s and giggles ? :)) at Bluf's reply.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Pandamninator on Thursday 20 December 2012, 09:13:38 AM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: MKSC on Thursday 20 December 2012, 09:43:19 AM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

My point is, and sorry if you don't agree big man, but I don't see quite what purpose the union serves anymore?

We aren't a major player on the world stage, our armed forces - while being first class in terms of personnel - are pitifully small compared to what they were so I can't see how that is a reason to stick together, we have limited natural resources left so it's not worth arguing over the oil and gas,and we are heavily reliant on the EU and China for pretty much everything we do. What actual good does being tied to Scotland and Wales do for England?

I don't mean this in a xenophobic jock-hating way, I just fail to see what the point of it is anymore?

How different would this small group of islands be if it were seperate nations under the ultimate control of Europe rather than one slightly bigger archaic disjointed supposed union under the control of Europe?

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:23:52 AM
Good and interesting thread this.

Got a strong feeling that once the results for the referendum are in then we'll see a clear majority for the 'YES' vote.

For the last 23 years or so i've been working in the oil industry, all bar 6 or so of those years off Aberdeen.
When I first started here the SNP were one of the 4 main parties but certainly not the primary party they are now, guys I worked with were not that overly bothered about independance.
Fast forward 15'ish years and the SNP are in power (is that two elections in a row?) and give no sign of losing popularity, the Scottish labour party is treading water at best and the other two - tories and lib/dems are near enough wiped out.
Now, whenever the subject of independence comes up the vast majority of the Scots onboard are either a straight yes to 'YES', or at worst a 'aye, it cannae be any worse!!'.

Now I realise that my own 'exit' poll results/observations don't exactly measure up to MORI standards but given the fact that the SNP (despite having Alex Sammond as head) have been re-elected shows that the majority of Scots must infact be in favour of their policies, the main one being self determination and independence.

One of the main sources of income for an independent Scotland would be the oil revenue and contrary to some of the scare-mongering newspaper headlines there is still plenty of it around to be tapped below the seabed. The oil companies have surveyed the North Sea and surrounding areas to death over the years, they've known where the oil is but at that time it was easier and more economical to drill and process the easier and shallower  to surface oilfields. However as technology has advanced over the years these previously out of reach fields are now drillable as so will continue to give a decent return for Scotlands exchequer for years to come.

If/when Scotland does become a country in its own right, then as long as it doesn't affect my employment - which i'm 99.9% sure wouldn't happen due anyway, then i'm quite open-minded to Scotland going it alone - mind you, i've still got a black & white tartan toon scarf just in case!!

 :thup: That's what I thought about the oil/gas. Apparently there are untapped resources off where I live, the Isle of Lewis and the Shetland ones too? I know a few people up here who work on the rigs and they say the same so I thought it was more than likely just scaremongering tactics like you say.

I don't have as much of a feeling that we will get the 'yes' vote at the moment but I hope that the reality of the situation will help turn those fearing the change into yes votes.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlueStar on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:49:12 AM
Speaking of Scotland

(http://i.imgur.com/LKwQh.jpg)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:53:29 AM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

I said look at the popular vote, not the first-past-the-post vote, BUT, that was interesting to read nonetheless.  I don't know what point you're really trying to make here.  I wouldn't complain if we were the Tory power base, because that would be the reality, however, we are not, so it's a completley pointless point.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Thursday 20 December 2012, 01:12:24 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

I don't think anyone's suggesting that the tories should not be allowed power if they win a election, i think they[re saying they don't want the tories to win, and they will a lot more often without Scotland.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 20 December 2012, 02:28:57 PM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

My point is, and sorry if you don't agree big man, but I don't see quite what purpose the union serves anymore?

We aren't a major player on the world stage, our armed forces - while being first class in terms of personnel - are pitifully small compared to what they were so I can't see how that is a reason to stick together, we have limited natural resources left so it's not worth arguing over the oil and gas,and we are heavily reliant on the EU and China for pretty much everything we do. What actual good does being tied to Scotland and Wales do for England?

I don't mean this in a xenophobic jock-hating way, I just fail to see what the point of it is anymore?

How different would this small group of islands be if it were seperate nations under the ultimate control of Europe rather than one slightly bigger archaic disjointed supposed union under the control of Europe?



Absolute bollocks
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:25:17 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.

It's ultimately a matter for the Scots to decide - even though it affects the rest of us as well - and whatever the outcome they're entitled to make their decision. I just hope that they make their decision based a bit more upon rational thought, rather than simply petty nationalism and an understandable hatred of the tories. Personally, I think that we'd all be a bit worse off if Scotland leaves the UK and I think that the Scots would be the most adversely affected.

The world has changed, no nation is truly independent, regardless of the barriers they put up between themselves and the rest of the world, just look at North Korea. In this world it's all about influence and small countries - with the exception of Israel - have less influence than larger ones. What a lot of European nations have realised - and we are too stupid to realise - is that being a part of a big thing gets you more power and influence - surely the whole point of independence? - over your own and others' affairs than being the whole of a small thing, hence the EU. You can be nominally as independent as you like, but in a globalised world there are rules to the game and if you have no influence over those rules you're left with a stark choice. You can independently choose to follow the rules laid down for you by someone else, or you can independently choose to starve like the DPRK. The more you conform (ie the less independently you behave) the more you will be allowed to thrive and the more you choose not to conform (ie behave independently) the more you will suffer. The only exceptions to this are the really big "countries", the US, China, Russia and the EU, who to some extent get to choose the rules everyone works under (not to mention ignoring the ones they can't be bothered with) and therefore are able to have more influence and behave more independently than the smaller nations. So perversely, more "independence" actually leads to less independence.

So what would the Scots actually get from an independent Scotland and what would they lose?

Gain:
- Nationalistic pride.
- No chance of a tory or tory-like government, at least in the short-run.
- I'm struggling now...

Lose:
- International political influence.
- International economic influence.
- The ability to actually implement non-tory-like policies, the welfare state, etc.

...and so-on.

The way I look at it the practical/rational argument is stronger for staying part of the union and I guess the emotional/irrational argument is stronger for independence and it's for the Scottish people to decide what's more important. It's not my choice, but I know what I'd decide and that's for Scotland to stay within the union and for the lot of us to get over ourselves and forget our petty nationalism and start playing a proper central role in Europe. Otherwise, we face a future of independent-irrelevance, where we have no say in what goes on and very little control over our own countries. It's time for us to wake up and smell the coffee, the world has changed, it's time to pick sides because if we don't then we're going to be left behind and the choice is America, Russia, China or the EU. I know which one is closest to my own viewpoint and I know which one is most open to our influence, in fact I know which one actively wants us to be involved, or at least did - they seem to be finally getting sick of trying to encourage us in only for us to cross the threshold and immediately drop our pants and s*** on the carpet. Do you?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:33:28 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.


Don't be silly. We have a tory-led govt, a tory PM and predominantly tory cabinet. They also had a tory government from 1979-1997.  It's hardly a small issue. It's quite reasonable for them to want to go and take their ball, and play with people they choose, not only occasionally.

You label implementing progressive policies as some sort of trivial gain. This is a huge gain for a country that votes for those things, what's happening in Britain now under a conservative government coud be totally different in Scotland under people they chose. Self-government is not trivial or emotional.

They'd get international political influence through the EU and I think it's not such a big issue for them. I think many would be happy with a political influence on the level of say, Denmark.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:35:39 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.


Don't be silly. We have a tory-led govt, a tory PM and predominantly tory cabinet. They also had a tory government from 1979-1997.  It's hardly a small issue. It's quite reasonable for them to want to go and take their ball, and play with people they choose, not only occasionally.

:thup:

The rest of what you say I kind of agree with, but as a nation, we've obliterated this lot from the landscape and we no longer want to be associated with them.  It's not petty, it's not stupid, it's that we're fed up with it.  It's the sole reason I will vote yes, the tories want decades of f***ing austerity.  DECADES.  We'll have no part of that, please.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:41:50 PM
Presumably as Scotland becomes more successful and the population becomes more middle class, they will start wanting a Conservative political party to vote for.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:42:40 PM
I see it almost opposite to you I think Indi. Not bothered about being part of a big powerful nation with international credibility. That's not for me and I think not what the majority of the Scottish people would want. I see nations such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Ireland, Holland etc etc all doing fine now and I'd rather be like them. The UK can go off and fight their really important wars and pillage all these countries with your money, I'd rather have nothing to do with that thanks.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:45:03 PM
I see it almost opposite to you I think Indi. Not bothered about being part of a big powerful nation with international credibility. That's not for me and I think not what the majority of the Scottish people would want. I see nations such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Ireland, Holland etc etc all doing fine now and I'd rather be like them. The UK can go off and fight their really important wars and pillage all these countries with your money, I'd rather have nothing to do with that thanks.

That's the most compelling argument for me. I would rather be like those nations as well.

They find their place in the world by being thoroughly 'European' as well though (largely), would you be up for that for Scotland?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 03:50:30 PM
This guy puts forward a lot of the reasons I'm in favour of here. He puts it far better than I ever could though.

09/06/2012 An Englishman living in Scotland on why he changed his mind about Scottish independence. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOm5U1Rsvu8#)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 04:01:42 PM
I see it almost opposite to you I think Indi. Not bothered about being part of a big powerful nation with international credibility. That's not for me and I think not what the majority of the Scottish people would want. I see nations such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Ireland, Holland etc etc all doing fine now and I'd rather be like them. The UK can go off and fight their really important wars and pillage all these countries with your money, I'd rather have nothing to do with that thanks.

That's the most compelling argument for me. I would rather be like those nations as well.

They find their place in the world by being thoroughly 'European' as well though (largely), would you be up for that for Scotland?

Yeah don't see why not.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 04:03:21 PM
In theory I'm fine for us to integrate into Europe, even as the UK, but at the moment I don't like what the EU is becoming.  The treatment of Greece is appalling and the appointment of Monti in Italy was nothing short of disgraceful. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 04:10:28 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.


Don't be silly. We have a tory-led govt, a tory PM and predominantly tory cabinet. They also had a tory government from 1979-1997.  It's hardly a small issue. It's quite reasonable for them to want to go and take their ball, and play with people they choose, not only occasionally.

Don't be silly?

Yeah the tories are the dominant force within the government at the moment, but it is not a tory government, that's a fact, to deny it is silly. It's also a fact that we haven't had a tory government for 15 years, to deny that is also silly. So it's clearly not impossible for the UK to have a government that the majority of Scots are happy with, should enough of the rest of the country agree with them of course. Due to the nature of our politics there are areas of the country that are fundamentally loyal to one party or another and where certain political ideologies are more or less dominant. In each and every election some of those areas are going to be happy that they got the government they wanted and others aren't, that's democracy for you.

Essentially, the argument you're making is saying that if the dominant political views of one area are not reflected on the national level at that particular moment in time, despite the fact that they have been in the past and will be again in the future, then that area should break away from the rest of the country. So that area then becomes the "nation" and the dominant political views in that area are now dominant on the "national" level. Does it not follow that the people living in that area whose political views are now in a minority within that new nation and therefore might not be reflected on a national level that often, should now break away and form their own nation whose political views reflect their own? If not, why not?

In fact why not just have a shitload of one-party micro-states? Then everyone can live content that in their tiny insignificant little speck of the world everyone agrees with them. (Disclaimer for people of low intelligence: Scotland is not a tiny insignificant little speck of the world, but it is smaller and would be less influential than the UK as a whole)

Or perhaps we could stop wasting our time arguing about the "politics" of whose face is on banknotes and what song gets sung before sporting fixtures and get on with dealing with the huge and massively important political issues that we face on a global scale right now and require influence on a global scale to deal with, like poverty, repression, war, corruption and starvation, mother f***ing starvation, people are starving to death right now. It's 2012 for f***'s sake, that kind of s*** is going on, and here we are talking about insignificant bullshit like this, stuff that might have had a significant impact on people's lives a few hundred years ago, but will essentially now change nothing whatsoever of significance for those involved, regardless of what happens.

It's a distraction from what's actually important, nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: johnnypd on Thursday 20 December 2012, 04:12:06 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.


Don't be silly. We have a tory-led govt, a tory PM and predominantly tory cabinet. They also had a tory government from 1979-1997.  It's hardly a small issue. It's quite reasonable for them to want to go and take their ball, and play with people they choose, not only occasionally.

:thup:

The rest of what you say I kind of agree with, but as a nation, we've obliterated this lot from the landscape and we no longer want to be associated with them.  It's not petty, it's not stupid, it's that we're fed up with it.  It's the sole reason I will vote yes, the tories want decades of f***ing austerity.  DECADES.  We'll have no part of that, please.

England will be f***ed if Scotland leaves in that it makes a non-Tory government a lot more difficult to achieve, especially when you take into account the gerrymandering that they're planning.

But if I was Scottish i think i'd be voting yes - got to look after yourselves and get out while you still can. Though i reckon the best deal for Scotland would be to push for more autonomy within the UK - so you can get the benefits of being within the Union without having to overly suffer from the policies of whichever dickhead happens to be occupying 10 downing street. a more advanced version of the current set-up, basically.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 04:17:08 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.


Don't be silly. We have a tory-led govt, a tory PM and predominantly tory cabinet. They also had a tory government from 1979-1997.  It's hardly a small issue. It's quite reasonable for them to want to go and take their ball, and play with people they choose, not only occasionally.

:thup:

The rest of what you say I kind of agree with, but as a nation, we've obliterated this lot from the landscape and we no longer want to be associated with them.  It's not petty, it's not stupid, it's that we're fed up with it.  It's the sole reason I will vote yes, the tories want decades of f***ing austerity.  DECADES.  We'll have no part of that, please.

England will be f***ed if Scotland leaves in that it makes a non-Tory government a lot more difficult to achieve, especially when you take into account the gerrymandering that they're planning.

But if I was Scottish i think i'd be voting yes - got to look after yourselves and get out while you still can. Though i reckon the best deal for Scotland would be to push for more autonomy within the UK - so you can get the benefits of being within the Union without having to overly suffer from the policies of whichever dickhead happens to be occupying 10 downing street. a more advanced version of the current set-up, basically.

I'd be happy with the so-called 'Devolution-plus', definitely.  I'm actually really demoralised about wanting to vote yes, but Britain isn't working in its current form.  And if it won't change, then we'll go try our own thing.  In that sense, I'm excited.  The idea we'd sink is nothing more than scare-tactics.  We might not be 'influential', but you have to start somewhere, and I dispute how influential we are as part of the Union anyway.  It's all in f***ing London.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Thursday 20 December 2012, 04:21:08 PM
That YouTube clip is very hard to argue against, brilliant argument really. It's thoroughly depressing that the message is that the rest of the UK is beyond help though.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: johnnypd on Thursday 20 December 2012, 04:33:34 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.


Don't be silly. We have a tory-led govt, a tory PM and predominantly tory cabinet. They also had a tory government from 1979-1997.  It's hardly a small issue. It's quite reasonable for them to want to go and take their ball, and play with people they choose, not only occasionally.

:thup:

The rest of what you say I kind of agree with, but as a nation, we've obliterated this lot from the landscape and we no longer want to be associated with them.  It's not petty, it's not stupid, it's that we're fed up with it.  It's the sole reason I will vote yes, the tories want decades of f***ing austerity.  DECADES.  We'll have no part of that, please.

England will be f***ed if Scotland leaves in that it makes a non-Tory government a lot more difficult to achieve, especially when you take into account the gerrymandering that they're planning.

But if I was Scottish i think i'd be voting yes - got to look after yourselves and get out while you still can. Though i reckon the best deal for Scotland would be to push for more autonomy within the UK - so you can get the benefits of being within the Union without having to overly suffer from the policies of whichever dickhead happens to be occupying 10 downing street. a more advanced version of the current set-up, basically.

I'd be happy with the so-called 'Devolution-plus', definitely.  I'm actually really demoralised about wanting to vote yes, but Britain isn't working in its current form.  And if it won't change, then we'll go try our own thing.  In that sense, I'm excited.  The idea we'd sink is nothing more than scare-tactics.  We might not be 'influential', but you have to start somewhere, and I dispute how influential we are as part of the Union anyway.  It's all in f***ing London.

I think Scotland will be a huge success on its own fwiw, at least in the short to medium term :thup: The timing is quite serendipitous - had it been a few years earlier an independent Scotland would've been crippled by the financial collapse with two major global banks centered there - while a couple of years later and the negativity around the tories will (hopefully) be gone. So it's now or never.

I could see Scotland becoming a more social-liberal state akin to denmark or sweden with a strong yet innovative welfare state, high minimum wage, better education and so on. As for global influence - i think it's over-rated and you'll be better off for not leading the militaristic, capitalist charge with the US and getting embroiled in all sorts of s***. I also think nations like denmark, norway and sweden actually project a lot of positive 'soft power' around the globe and Scotland can be just as successful in doing this on its own.

It would be interesting to see how quickly corporate lobbies and general neo-liberalism takes hold though - London politics has pretty much been conquered by these rogue elements but Scotland has been isolated from it to an extent, despite Salmond being a sycophantic dick who loves to cosy up to rich and powerful people. if Scotland can resist going down the ultra-capitalist route that the rest of the UK is hurtling towards it might allow you to build a country that doesn't worship money above all else.

Mind you the worst scenario of all is that Scotland slowly sleepwalks into becoming just a smaller version of the UK with all its problems and excesses. if that happens it will have all been for nowt.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 04:36:44 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.


Don't be silly. We have a tory-led govt, a tory PM and predominantly tory cabinet. They also had a tory government from 1979-1997.  It's hardly a small issue. It's quite reasonable for them to want to go and take their ball, and play with people they choose, not only occasionally.

:thup:

The rest of what you say I kind of agree with, but as a nation, we've obliterated this lot from the landscape and we no longer want to be associated with them.  It's not petty, it's not stupid, it's that we're fed up with it.  It's the sole reason I will vote yes, the tories want decades of f***ing austerity.  DECADES.  We'll have no part of that, please.

England will be f***ed if Scotland leaves in that it makes a non-Tory government a lot more difficult to achieve, especially when you take into account the gerrymandering that they're planning.

But if I was Scottish i think i'd be voting yes - got to look after yourselves and get out while you still can. Though i reckon the best deal for Scotland would be to push for more autonomy within the UK - so you can get the benefits of being within the Union without having to overly suffer from the policies of whichever dickhead happens to be occupying 10 downing street. a more advanced version of the current set-up, basically.

I'd be happy with the so-called 'Devolution-plus', definitely.  I'm actually really demoralised about wanting to vote yes, but Britain isn't working in its current form.  And if it won't change, then we'll go try our own thing.  In that sense, I'm excited.  The idea we'd sink is nothing more than scare-tactics.  We might not be 'influential', but you have to start somewhere, and I dispute how influential we are as part of the Union anyway.  It's all in f***ing London.

Scotland wouldn't sink and neither would the UK. We'd all be slightly worse off, or perhaps some of us might be slightly better off, whatever, big deal. You're right about the problems the UK faces (and the EU), but the answer isn't to run away and try to hide, it's to take the w*****s on and beat them and their arguments and make the case for your own undeniable. Scotland can leave the UK and free itself from the dominance of the wealthy in London and the South East - at least to some extent - but these are just local manifestations of global problems and apart from abandoning the rest of England and Wales to their fate Scotland itself will be left in a weaker position when it comes to dealing with those problems. The world isn't going to change if Scotland becomes independent, it can't make itself independent of that, it can only make itself an independent, but much less powerful and influential voice on the subjects that matter and ensure that the UK, which although diminished would remain a much more powerful and influential voice, would be much more likely to be on the wrong side of those arguments.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 04:44:37 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.


Don't be silly. We have a tory-led govt, a tory PM and predominantly tory cabinet. They also had a tory government from 1979-1997.  It's hardly a small issue. It's quite reasonable for them to want to go and take their ball, and play with people they choose, not only occasionally.

:thup:

The rest of what you say I kind of agree with, but as a nation, we've obliterated this lot from the landscape and we no longer want to be associated with them.  It's not petty, it's not stupid, it's that we're fed up with it.  It's the sole reason I will vote yes, the tories want decades of f***ing austerity.  DECADES.  We'll have no part of that, please.

England will be f***ed if Scotland leaves in that it makes a non-Tory government a lot more difficult to achieve, especially when you take into account the gerrymandering that they're planning.

But if I was Scottish i think i'd be voting yes - got to look after yourselves and get out while you still can. Though i reckon the best deal for Scotland would be to push for more autonomy within the UK - so you can get the benefits of being within the Union without having to overly suffer from the policies of whichever dickhead happens to be occupying 10 downing street. a more advanced version of the current set-up, basically.

I'd be happy with the so-called 'Devolution-plus', definitely.  I'm actually really demoralised about wanting to vote yes, but Britain isn't working in its current form.  And if it won't change, then we'll go try our own thing.  In that sense, I'm excited.  The idea we'd sink is nothing more than scare-tactics.  We might not be 'influential', but you have to start somewhere, and I dispute how influential we are as part of the Union anyway.  It's all in f***ing London.

I think Scotland will be a huge success on its own fwiw, at least in the short to medium term :thup: The timing is quite serendipitous - had it been a few years earlier an independent Scotland would've been crippled by the financial collapse with two major global banks centered there - while a couple of years later and the negativity around the tories will (hopefully) be gone. So it's now or never.

I could see Scotland becoming a more social-liberal state akin to denmark or sweden with a strong yet innovative welfare state, high minimum wage, better education and so on. As for global influence - i think it's over-rated and you'll be better off for not leading the militaristic, capitalist charge with the US and getting embroiled in all sorts of s***. I also think nations like denmark, norway and sweden actually project a lot of positive 'soft power' around the globe and Scotland can be just as successful in doing this on its own.

It would be interesting to see how quickly corporate lobbies and general neo-liberalism takes hold though - London politics has pretty much been conquered by these rogue elements but Scotland has been isolated from it to an extent, despite Salmond being a sycophantic dick who loves to cosy up to rich and powerful people. if Scotland can resist going down the ultra-capitalist route that the rest of the UK is hurtling towards it might allow you to build a country that doesn't worship money above all else.

Mind you the worst scenario of all is that Scotland slowly sleepwalks into becoming just a smaller version of the UK with all its problems and excesses. if that happens it will have all been for nowt.

Nice post Johnny, aye the last bit is a nightmare scenario but I have a lot of faith in that not happening.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 20 December 2012, 05:06:06 PM
Why are the English so scared of Scottish independence?

I don't know that they are.

I am, because it will give the Conservative party a much better chance of governing England for the rest of time.

I get the impression they are. Don't see how the conservatives would rule England for the rest of time.

You ought to look at the records for the popular vote in England for just about the last century.

http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html (http://blog.scottishelections.org.uk/2012/10/would-tories-rule-forever-after.html)

And either way, if that's what the majority of England want, tough.  That's how a democracy works.  Would you be complaining if it was the other way around and Scotland was a major Tory power base that kept them in contention?

Perhaps those who didn't want to be ruled by the tories could just have a referendum and leave?

This whole Scotland should leave because they're continually forced into having a tory government they didn't vote for argument, is bullshit. For a start, the UK doesn't even have a tory government, secondly we also didn't have a tory government before that either, and finally are they seriously saying "I didn't get what I want this time, so instead of trying to win the argument next time, I'm going to take my ball home and sulk" is the best justification they can come up with for Scottish independence? Well if it is, then what a pathetically weak case they have.


Don't be silly. We have a tory-led govt, a tory PM and predominantly tory cabinet. They also had a tory government from 1979-1997.  It's hardly a small issue. It's quite reasonable for them to want to go and take their ball, and play with people they choose, not only occasionally.

:thup:

The rest of what you say I kind of agree with, but as a nation, we've obliterated this lot from the landscape and we no longer want to be associated with them.  It's not petty, it's not stupid, it's that we're fed up with it.  It's the sole reason I will vote yes, the tories want decades of f***ing austerity.  DECADES.  We'll have no part of that, please.

England will be f***ed if Scotland leaves in that it makes a non-Tory government a lot more difficult to achieve, especially when you take into account the gerrymandering that they're planning.

But if I was Scottish i think i'd be voting yes - got to look after yourselves and get out while you still can. Though i reckon the best deal for Scotland would be to push for more autonomy within the UK - so you can get the benefits of being within the Union without having to overly suffer from the policies of whichever dickhead happens to be occupying 10 downing street. a more advanced version of the current set-up, basically.

I'd be happy with the so-called 'Devolution-plus', definitely.  I'm actually really demoralised about wanting to vote yes, but Britain isn't working in its current form.  And if it won't change, then we'll go try our own thing.  In that sense, I'm excited.  The idea we'd sink is nothing more than scare-tactics.  We might not be 'influential', but you have to start somewhere, and I dispute how influential we are as part of the Union anyway.  It's all in f***ing London.

I think Scotland will be a huge success on its own fwiw, at least in the short to medium term :thup: The timing is quite serendipitous - had it been a few years earlier an independent Scotland would've been crippled by the financial collapse with two major global banks centered there - while a couple of years later and the negativity around the tories will (hopefully) be gone. So it's now or never.

I could see Scotland becoming a more social-liberal state akin to denmark or sweden with a strong yet innovative welfare state, high minimum wage, better education and so on. As for global influence - i think it's over-rated and you'll be better off for not leading the militaristic, capitalist charge with the US and getting embroiled in all sorts of s***. I also think nations like denmark, norway and sweden actually project a lot of positive 'soft power' around the globe and Scotland can be just as successful in doing this on its own.

It would be interesting to see how quickly corporate lobbies and general neo-liberalism takes hold though - London politics has pretty much been conquered by these rogue elements but Scotland has been isolated from it to an extent, despite Salmond being a sycophantic dick who loves to cosy up to rich and powerful people. if Scotland can resist going down the ultra-capitalist route that the rest of the UK is hurtling towards it might allow you to build a country that doesn't worship money above all else.

Mind you the worst scenario of all is that Scotland slowly sleepwalks into becoming just a smaller version of the UK with all its problems and excesses. if that happens it will have all been for nowt.

Nice post Johnny, aye the last bit is a nightmare scenario but I have a lot of faith in that not happening.

Didn't the Scotish parliment give Donald Trump the go ahead to build that MEGA golf course and trample all over the local people.  Yeah nice one.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 05:08:08 PM
Don't know, we put him in his place when he said he didn't want any windfarms near his course, and basically told him to shut up about his opinions on green energy in general. :dontknow:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: cp40 on Thursday 20 December 2012, 05:14:29 PM
does anybody know if the Scottish are net contributors, or recipients to uk economy?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: ian on Thursday 20 December 2012, 05:20:10 PM
I believe they get about £1800 per person more than the rest of us...( overall spend).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 06:34:10 PM
Personally I think Salmond totally played him on that one Gimp, like Bluf says we basically told him to f*** off now. The guys around the course are still in their houses(I think) but yeah they have been royally f***ed about and after watching the program about it I was well p*ssed off too. Who knows what went on with that initially though, Trump has been a total c*** probably beyond what everyone expected but as we know Salmond loves his 'investment'.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 06:34:52 PM
does anybody know if the Scottish are net contributors, or recipients to uk economy?

I've seen different figures suggesting one and then the other, I'll try and find them.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Thursday 20 December 2012, 06:40:43 PM
does anybody know if the Scottish are net contributors, or recipients to uk economy?

Scotland raises 9.6% of the tax and has 9.3% of it spent back. It has 8.5% of the population. (This is not accounting for oil, which would make it higher. Scotland would get at least 8.5% of the oil).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 20 December 2012, 08:13:32 PM
Will scotland still be able to offrr free uni and free prescriptions to the masses with having to draw in its own incone.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 08:21:32 PM
It's hard to say, but we'd be paying a s*** load less in defence costs, I read something in the region of £1.5-2 billion.  Ultimately, I think we would, because we have the political parties that want it.  Unlike in Westminster.  We also have PR, so we can hold the party-in-power's feet to the fire. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Thursday 20 December 2012, 08:31:24 PM
It's a daft idea. I'd hate it if we broke off. Life with the SNP would be s***.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 08:33:44 PM
It's a daft idea. I'd hate it if we broke off. Life with the SNP would be s***.

I don't think many would vote for them after independence.  They only get voted for now because they're the only party that puts Scotland first, at least that was the general opinion of those that voted them last time round.  The rest were in bed with their Westminster masters. 

Again, I'm not for it in principle, but because we need to get out of the shitstorm whilst we can so I kind of agree with you.  I'd hate it, it goes against everything I believe in politically. :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Thursday 20 December 2012, 08:40:13 PM
It's a daft idea. I'd hate it if we broke off. Life with the SNP would be s***.

I don't think many would vote for them after independence.  They only get voted for now because they're the only party that puts Scotland first, at least that was the general opinion of those that voted them last time round.  The rest were in bed with their Westminster masters. 

Again, I'm not for it in principle, but because we need to get out of the shitstorm whilst we can so I kind of agree with you.  I'd hate it, it goes against everything I believe in politically. :lol:

I'm not massively politically minded, so my opinions are pretty much worthless;

I was born in England and moved to Glasgow when I was 5-6. I got a lot of abuse for being English which made me resent the Scottish people for a while. Even now, there is a surreal hatred for the English here and that misguided anger has led to a huge surge (thankfully seems to be dying down) of support for the SNP. Especially amongst stupid people.

I guess I'm biased because a lot of family live in the west country and other nice parts. I love this place, but it has proper wee man syndrome.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 08:41:36 PM
It's a daft idea. I'd hate it if we broke off. Life with the SNP would be s***.

It's not a daft idea man, you could vote for someone else you know!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 08:46:16 PM
does anybody know if the Scottish are net contributors, or recipients to uk economy?

Scotland raises 9.6% of the tax and has 9.3% of it spent back. It has 8.5% of the population. (This is not accounting for oil, which would make it higher. Scotland would get at least 8.5% of the oil).

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/5863-new-figures-reveal-scotland-wealthier-than-rest-of-uk-since-1980 (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/5863-new-figures-reveal-scotland-wealthier-than-rest-of-uk-since-1980)

From the guardian 'The last set of figures from Holyrood statisticians show that for 2008-9, Scotland provided £1.3bn more in revenue than was spent north of the border. At less than 1% of Scotland's GDP, that's not a huge surplus, and it does include a due share of North Sea revenues. Strip out crude and the deficit goes up sharply, to £10.5bn (or 9% of GDP).'
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 20 December 2012, 08:53:32 PM
If scotland does take the plunge...then will the scotts be responsible for RBS and act as the banks guarantors?  leaving the rest of the UK out of it??
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: cp40 on Thursday 20 December 2012, 08:54:44 PM
yeah and what sort of underpants will they wear under their kilts?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 09:02:05 PM
yeah and what sort of underpants will they wear under their kilts?

No pants. I did learn a valuable lesson in 6th year of school though. Fell asleep after the dinner-dance with my kilt on at a party and my mate lifted up the kilt and the b******s took a photo of me with my bollocks hanging out.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: MKSC on Thursday 20 December 2012, 09:08:55 PM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

My point is, and sorry if you don't agree big man, but I don't see quite what purpose the union serves anymore?

We aren't a major player on the world stage, our armed forces - while being first class in terms of personnel - are pitifully small compared to what they were so I can't see how that is a reason to stick together, we have limited natural resources left so it's not worth arguing over the oil and gas,and we are heavily reliant on the EU and China for pretty much everything we do. What actual good does being tied to Scotland and Wales do for England?

I don't mean this in a xenophobic jock-hating way, I just fail to see what the point of it is anymore?

How different would this small group of islands be if it were seperate nations under the ultimate control of Europe rather than one slightly bigger archaic disjointed supposed union under the control of Europe?



Absolute bollocks

Thanks for your considered response. Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 20 December 2012, 09:16:03 PM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

You know I've got your back, man. Always have, always will.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: loki679 on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:33:53 PM
What will happen about the UK national debt?  Would Scotland take their share of that or leave it to England and Wales?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:35:00 PM
We'd have to take our share surely, but I've no idea.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tooj on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:36:16 PM
What's the plans for free prescriptions etc?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: loki679 on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:41:23 PM
We'd have to take our share surely, but I've no idea.

Could be a canny scheme like.  You p*ss off, then England does the same then Wales after that and Northern Ireland is left with a £1 trillion debt and we're all in the clear.

Form another union called 'the no northern irelands club' and jobs a good un.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:45:48 PM
What's the plans for free prescriptions etc?

I think we control our own NHS so I imagine free prescriptions would carry on, I don't know that for sure though.

"Scotland already runs many of the most important public services independently.

These include the NHS, our schools, universities and colleges, local government and our police, courts and legal system. For these services, things will continue to operate in the same way as they do now.

The most recent government accounts, showing all the money spent in Scotland and all the taxes raised, tell us that over the past 6 years Scotland has been in relative surplus compared to the rest of the UK. That means Scotland more than pays her way. And it also means that we will have the resources we need to protect and invest in the public services we value most. "
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Dr Colossus on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:46:41 PM
Would the Union Jack be changed to lose the blue bits?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Thursday 20 December 2012, 10:58:26 PM
Would the Union Jack be changed to lose the blue bits?

It would probably just stay the same I would imagine.

What would actually happen to the rest of the union though? Won't it basically be England bankrolling Northern Ireland and Wales? Would people be happy with that situation? If Scotland went would England want to just go it alone as well?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Toon Saint on Thursday 20 December 2012, 11:04:36 PM
What would actually happen to the rest of the union though?
It will be known as Former United Kingdom or FUK for short. :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Thursday 20 December 2012, 11:24:24 PM
What's the plans for free prescriptions etc?

Health, law, education, church and others things are already devolved, so wouldn't change.

I'm really interested to see what happens with flags and stuff. It seems silly to me that it could stay the same for the UK considering it's half the scotland flag - and the name? UK of England, Wales and Northern Ireland I imagine.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Parky on Thursday 20 December 2012, 11:28:07 PM
What's the plans for free prescriptions etc?

I think we control our own NHS so I imagine free prescriptions would carry on, I don't know that for sure though.

"Scotland already runs many of the most important public services independently.

These include the NHS, our schools, universities and colleges, local government and our police, courts and legal system. For these services, things will continue to operate in the same way as they do now.

The most recent government accounts, showing all the money spent in Scotland and all the taxes raised, tell us that over the past 6 years Scotland has been in relative surplus compared to the rest of the UK. That means Scotland more than pays her way. And it also means that we will have the resources we need to protect and invest in the public services we value most. "

Pretty sure you get more money from the UK than you give back.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 11:38:31 PM
What's the plans for free prescriptions etc?

I think we control our own NHS so I imagine free prescriptions would carry on, I don't know that for sure though.

"Scotland already runs many of the most important public services independently.

These include the NHS, our schools, universities and colleges, local government and our police, courts and legal system. For these services, things will continue to operate in the same way as they do now.

The most recent government accounts, showing all the money spent in Scotland and all the taxes raised, tell us that over the past 6 years Scotland has been in relative surplus compared to the rest of the UK. That means Scotland more than pays her way. And it also means that we will have the resources we need to protect and invest in the public services we value most. "

Pretty sure you get more money from the UK than you give back.

I'm not sure on that one Parky, I've seen different information from both sides. This suggests we did anyway. http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/4235-would-an-independent-scotland-be-financially-sound (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/4235-would-an-independent-scotland-be-financially-sound)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Thursday 20 December 2012, 11:42:50 PM
Just for information, Newsnet is an SNP sympathetic website.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 December 2012, 11:56:05 PM
Just for information, Newsnet is an SNP sympathetic website.



Fair play, they all seem to be sympathetic to one or the other though.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Friday 21 December 2012, 01:27:07 AM
Just for information, Newsnet is an SNP sympathetic website.



http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/squaring-the-circles-watching-the-angles.19193409?_=af58357e617142f777c232d0b9930708b18d879c (http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/squaring-the-circles-watching-the-angles.19193409?_=af58357e617142f777c232d0b9930708b18d879c)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Friday 21 December 2012, 07:14:52 AM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

You know I've got your back, man. Always have, always will.

Just to clarify, I wasn't agreeing with him. The post likely should have read "...how much of an idiot he thinks you are."
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: MKSC on Friday 21 December 2012, 08:58:45 AM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

You know I've got your back, man. Always have, always will.

Just to clarify, I wasn't agreeing with him. The post likely should have read "...how much of an idiot he thinks you are."

[backpedal.gif]
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Friday 21 December 2012, 10:22:08 AM
s***-stirring Yankee t***. :hmm:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 21 December 2012, 10:30:08 AM
Just for information, Newsnet is an SNP sympathetic website.



http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/squaring-the-circles-watching-the-angles.19193409?_=af58357e617142f777c232d0b9930708b18d879c (http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/squaring-the-circles-watching-the-angles.19193409?_=af58357e617142f777c232d0b9930708b18d879c)

 :thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 21 December 2012, 11:34:15 AM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

My point is, and sorry if you don't agree big man, but I don't see quite what purpose the union serves anymore?

We aren't a major player on the world stage, our armed forces - while being first class in terms of personnel - are pitifully small compared to what they were so I can't see how that is a reason to stick together, we have limited natural resources left so it's not worth arguing over the oil and gas,and we are heavily reliant on the EU and China for pretty much everything we do. What actual good does being tied to Scotland and Wales do for England?

I don't mean this in a xenophobic jock-hating way, I just fail to see what the point of it is anymore?

How different would this small group of islands be if it were seperate nations under the ultimate control of Europe rather than one slightly bigger archaic disjointed supposed union under the control of Europe?



Absolute bollocks

Thanks for your considered response. Care to elaborate?
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

My point is, and sorry if you don't agree big man, but I don't see quite what purpose the union serves anymore?

We aren't a major player on the world stage, our armed forces - while being first class in terms of personnel - are pitifully small compared to what they were so I can't see how that is a reason to stick together, we have limited natural resources left so it's not worth arguing over the oil and gas,and we are heavily reliant on the EU and China for pretty much everything we do. What actual good does being tied to Scotland and Wales do for England?

I don't mean this in a xenophobic jock-hating way, I just fail to see what the point of it is anymore?

How different would this small group of islands be if it were seperate nations under the ultimate control of Europe rather than one slightly bigger archaic disjointed supposed union under the control of Europe?



Absolute bollocks

Thanks for your considered response. Care to elaborate?


My point is, and sorry if you don't agree big man, but I don't see quite what purpose the union serves anymore?

We aren't a major player on the world stage, our armed forces - while being first class in terms of personnel - are pitifully small compared to what they were so I can't see how that is a reason to stick together, we have limited natural resources left so it's not worth arguing over the oil and gas,and we are heavily reliant on the EU and China for pretty much everything we do. What actual good does being tied to Scotland and Wales do for England?

The armed forces, we have one of the best well trained and well resourced forces in the world, with still a big navy and still a reasonable to good sized air force to boot, why would we need a MASSIVE army at the moment?  We live in a peaceful part of the world and dont require a MASSIVE land army to protect us.  What we require at the moment is the small well organised forces we have.  Or do you consider having a big army with being a world player?  Like China, India, Pakistan, North Korea or Russia...

With the excepttion of Russia, how well trained are these big armies of the others?  How well supplied and fed are they ?  How would these other nations mentioned move these forces around the globe without being vunerable to attack?  They are MASSIVE armies but thats due to their region in the world.  Pakistan and India have already been to war with each other in the past and are in dispute of the Kashmir region and historically have a grievance with each other, so they must maintain a large standing army.

China, needs a massive standing army due to its size and population, also it has been to war with India twice before (from memory) so again as much as it is big it is pretty well localised in the region.  The next major war is suspected to break out between India and China as their economies grow and clash with each other for supremecy in the region, so it makes sense from them to have the large forces. India and China are both investing in more ships and subs at the moment.

As for North Korea, well they are paranoid as f*** to begin with and feel they are on the brink of invasion at any moment, or they would have the world believe that.






I don't mean this in a xenophobic jock-hating way, I just fail to see what the point of it is anymore?

How different would this small group of islands be if it were seperate nations under the ultimate control of Europe rather than one slightly bigger archaic disjointed supposed union under the control of Europe?

So the union is archaic ?  You had better write a letter to Obama and tell him to break up the united states of America then, or maybe drop a letter to Ange Merkel and advise her to allow all the different regions of Germany to go their own way, or what about the differnt Italian kingdoms which make up Italy...better get Berlisconi on the phone.

Its out of date.


So how is it in Scotlands interest to leave a smaller union ( where they pretty much run themselves),  join a bigger union with the rest of europe and be one among 40 squabling nations with Germany then France dictating all.  It makes no sense to leave the UK and then join europe.  None at all, then europe is being pulled closer together to become one super euro state (at some point)

Unless Scotland wants to sit on the sidelines like Norway?  But like others have complained on here about the UK potentially leaving europe, saying the UK will be left behind, left isolated...how come Scotland or Norway wouldn't be???
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 21 December 2012, 11:36:20 AM
Would the Union Jack be changed to lose the blue bits?

The flag of the Union would be gone, a new flag with North Ireland, Wales and Englan would have to be created.  The Union flag will be cast into History.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: MKSC on Friday 21 December 2012, 11:54:53 AM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

My point is, and sorry if you don't agree big man, but I don't see quite what purpose the union serves anymore?

We aren't a major player on the world stage, our armed forces - while being first class in terms of personnel - are pitifully small compared to what they were so I can't see how that is a reason to stick together, we have limited natural resources left so it's not worth arguing over the oil and gas,and we are heavily reliant on the EU and China for pretty much everything we do. What actual good does being tied to Scotland and Wales do for England?

I don't mean this in a xenophobic jock-hating way, I just fail to see what the point of it is anymore?

How different would this small group of islands be if it were seperate nations under the ultimate control of Europe rather than one slightly bigger archaic disjointed supposed union under the control of Europe?



Absolute bollocks

Thanks for your considered response. Care to elaborate?
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

My point is, and sorry if you don't agree big man, but I don't see quite what purpose the union serves anymore?

We aren't a major player on the world stage, our armed forces - while being first class in terms of personnel - are pitifully small compared to what they were so I can't see how that is a reason to stick together, we have limited natural resources left so it's not worth arguing over the oil and gas,and we are heavily reliant on the EU and China for pretty much everything we do. What actual good does being tied to Scotland and Wales do for England?

I don't mean this in a xenophobic jock-hating way, I just fail to see what the point of it is anymore?

How different would this small group of islands be if it were seperate nations under the ultimate control of Europe rather than one slightly bigger archaic disjointed supposed union under the control of Europe?



Absolute bollocks

Thanks for your considered response. Care to elaborate?


My point is, and sorry if you don't agree big man, but I don't see quite what purpose the union serves anymore?

We aren't a major player on the world stage, our armed forces - while being first class in terms of personnel - are pitifully small compared to what they were so I can't see how that is a reason to stick together, we have limited natural resources left so it's not worth arguing over the oil and gas,and we are heavily reliant on the EU and China for pretty much everything we do. What actual good does being tied to Scotland and Wales do for England?

The armed forces, we have one of the best well trained and well resourced forces in the world, with still a big navy and still a reasonable to good sized air force to boot, why would we need a MASSIVE army at the moment?  We live in a peaceful part of the world and dont require a MASSIVE land army to protect us.  What we require at the moment is the small well organised forces we have.  Or do you consider having a big army with being a world player?  Like China, India, Pakistan, North Korea or Russia...

With the excepttion of Russia, how well trained are these big armies of the others?  How well supplied and fed are they ?  How would these other nations mentioned move these forces around the globe without being vunerable to attack?  They are MASSIVE armies but thats due to their region in the world.  Pakistan and India have already been to war with each other in the past and are in dispute of the Kashmir region and historically have a greavance with each other, so they must maintain a large standing army.

China, needs a massive standing army due to its size and population, also it has been to war with India twice before (from memory) so again as much as it is big it is pretty well localised in the region.  The next major war is suspected to break out between India and China as their economies grow and clash with each other for supremecy in the region, so it makes sense from them to have the large forces. India and China are both investing in more ships and subs at the moment.

As for North Korea, well they are paranoid as f*** to begin with and feel they are on the brink of invasion at any moment, or they would have the world believe that.






I don't mean this in a xenophobic jock-hating way, I just fail to see what the point of it is anymore?

How different would this small group of islands be if it were seperate nations under the ultimate control of Europe rather than one slightly bigger archaic disjointed supposed union under the control of Europe?

So the union is archaic ?  You had better write a letter to Obama and tell him to break up the united states of America then, or maybe drop a letter to Ange Merkel and advise her to allow all the different regions of Germany to go their own way, or what about the differnt Italian kingdoms which make up Italy...better get Berlisconi on the phone.

Its out of date.


So how is it in Scotlands interest to leave a smaller union ( where they pretty much run themselves),  join a bigger union with the rest of europe and be one among 40 squabling nations with Germany then France dictating all.  It makes no sense to leave the UK and then join europe.  None at all, then europe is being pulled closer together to become one super euro state (at some point)

Unless Scotland wants to sit on the sidelines like Norway?  But like others have complained on here about the UK potentially leaving europe, saying the UK will be left behind, left isolated...how come Scotland or Norway wouldn't be???

My point re: the armed forces was that people use it as a reason not to break up the union, as if we would be unable to defend ourselves without the scots. My point was that it is so small anyway I can't see what difference losing a few scottish regiments would make, not that we need a huge army due to the our geography and participation in NATO and the UN. I'm exceptionally proud of our forces and know they are amongst the best trained and equipped in the world. Your rant on this subject is, as such, pointless.

You question "how is it in Scotlands interest to leave a smaller union ( where they pretty much run themselves),  join a bigger union with the rest of europe and be one among 40 squabling nations with Germany then France dictating all."

The answer - It isn't. But then I don't really care. Hence my original statement of let them have independance if they want it. I see pretty much no drawback for England if the UK doesn't include Scotland. If they take their share of the deficit with them then in my eyes it's all hunky dory. And the same goes for Welsh and the Irish.

The whole point of the UK was to make us stronger together, to make us a big boy on the world stage, to enable us to draw on the resources of the whole of these islands and push us outwards as a powerful forward thinking country. The world now is a very different place to how it was in the 1700's. What can we achieve in reality as the UK that we can't as England? We not colonising, we're not producing or exporting, we're not making policy or exerting our power over our neighbours. These are all things the union helped us do that no longer happen. We're a small fry group of countries that are living in the past.

Europe is going to get bigger, dominate more and dictate everything. That will happen, no matter if we are one country or four. I see this as no reason to keep the union alive.

As for using the US as an example, that's just laughable. There is a big difference between a 50 state union breaking up than a 4 state union. That would be more akin to the dissolution of the EU, which is a whole other discussion.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 21 December 2012, 12:09:09 PM
How is it laughable, it was a union created not long after ours, and youve completly ignored Germany and Italy.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Friday 21 December 2012, 03:03:36 PM
Quite happy for them to go it alone, the union, imo, is an outdated idea that has long since stopped being of use to either side. Would be happy with the complete disolution of the Union if they do though. Not much point keeping the Welsh anyway, not like they contribute much.

Although it would pretty much leave us a tory dictatorship, which is a scary prospect.

Opinions are such wonderful things: they can either demonstrate real knowledge and intelligence or (as in this case) betray blind prejudice and ignorance.

:lol: :thup:

GM, the master of eloquently telling you just how much of a f***ing idiot you are.

That's harsh, and I don't think there's much idiocy per se there, in fairness. GM's basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant, right-leaning comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Gee, errr, f*** me, thanks Ronaldo. Appreciated, for real.

You know I've got your back, man. Always have, always will.

Just to clarify, I wasn't agreeing with him. The post likely should have read "...how much of an idiot he thinks you are."

Aye. I know you've got far more about you than to agree with GM's rubbish, man.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Friday 21 December 2012, 03:13:24 PM
...basically a failed wannabe rabble-rouser who now gets his muted, virtual thrills through throwing stones at every easy target he can find spouting vaguely ignorant...comments. It used to be funny, but it's unfortunately progressed to the point of detriment to thread after thread.

Irony. You've just described yourself there. Get back in your box, pouty-lips. :-*
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Friday 21 December 2012, 03:16:17 PM
Nice omissions.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Kanji on Friday 21 December 2012, 03:24:36 PM
How is it laughable, it was a union created not long after ours, and youve completly ignored Germany and Italy.

Wouldn't the right comparison be breaking up a 50 state union = Breaking up the individual governmental regions of England? IE: the 9 regions (which I guess don't officially exist like they used to anymore)?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Monday 7 January 2013, 10:02:08 AM
http://www.scotsman.com/news/stephen-noon-beyond-the-snp-1-2711794 (http://www.scotsman.com/news/stephen-noon-beyond-the-snp-1-2711794)

Lots of interesting points in this about what is possible after a yes vote.

Not sure how feasible this is what he says here but it makes a lot of sense.

"So I might vote for a party in 2016 that proposes extending the Glasgow-Edinburgh high-speed rail line to Newcastle, to create a tri-city economic zone. Such a move would draw the 2.6 million people of the north-east of England into Scotland’s economic sphere, creating new opportunities for businesses and workers on both sides of the Border. It would make it easier for Geordies to shop in Glasgow or work in Edinburgh, and vice-versa; or to choose to fly from Edinburgh, allowing our capital’s airport to attract new international routes. Instead of waiting 40 years for London to connect high-speed rail to us, we could choose to connect to each other and in doing so bring together almost eight million people to create a counterweight to London’s gravitational pull."

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Monday 14 January 2013, 12:01:12 PM
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/01/10/irvine-welsh-on-scottish-independence-and-british-unity/ (http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/01/10/irvine-welsh-on-scottish-independence-and-british-unity/)

Love this, if you like Irvine Welsh's writing this is a great read even if you don't agree with it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: garth on Monday 14 January 2013, 12:35:13 PM
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/01/10/irvine-welsh-on-scottish-independence-and-british-unity/ (http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/01/10/irvine-welsh-on-scottish-independence-and-british-unity/)

Love this, if you like Irvine Welsh's writing this is a great read even if you don't agree with it.

An excellent read that.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Sunday 20 January 2013, 10:30:57 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/20/scottish-independence-becoming-only-option (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/20/scottish-independence-becoming-only-option)

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Sunday 20 January 2013, 10:35:07 PM
Quote
Even to a unionist like me, an Alex Salmond-led government is preferable to one that rewards greed and corruption

And that's the bottom line, because BlufPurdi said so.

The rest of the article is spot on as well.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Monday 21 January 2013, 03:01:52 AM
I wonder how Irish unionists over here will react if Scotland votes to leave the UK, if the b******s haven't ruined this place before then of course.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Monday 21 January 2013, 12:01:57 PM
I wonder how Irish unionists over here will react if Scotland votes to leave the UK, if the b******s haven't ruined this place before then of course.

Think there's quite a few countries with the same thoughts Decky. Many are worried it will be a catalyst I think.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Monday 21 January 2013, 03:37:12 PM
Quote
Even to a unionist like me, an Alex Salmond-led government is preferable to one that rewards greed and corruption

And that's the bottom line, because BlufPurdi said so.

The rest of the article is spot on as well.

Run away! - Monty Python and the Holy Grail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAp9sFVdERQ#)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Monday 21 January 2013, 09:02:18 PM
I wonder how Irish unionists over here will react if Scotland votes to leave the UK, if the b******s haven't ruined this place before then of course.

Would be an interesting event should it happen. What would happen? No idea really, although I think we can all agree that a unified Ireland is a long way off, regardless of what Scotland does.

[/CelticTigerisdead]
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Monday 21 January 2013, 09:21:27 PM
Yeah it's a while off for sure, but the idea of one economy in Ireland instead of two really is a strong one, but that's for another day. I just wonder how people from a unionist background here would react if Scotland left and the Union was in pieces. Would the UK work without Scotland or would England be better off alone as well if they left?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Monday 21 January 2013, 09:29:20 PM
Yeah it's a while off for sure, but the idea of one economy in Ireland instead of two really is a strong one, but that's for another day. I just wonder how people from a unionist background here would react if Scotland left and the Union was in pieces. Would the UK work without Scotland or would England be better off alone as well if they left?

I'm not even clear whether Scottish 'independence' would definitely mean the end of the Union...SNP are saying they'll want to keep the pound, the Monarchy...so I'm not sure how that measures up in terms of breaking up the Union?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Monday 21 January 2013, 09:30:46 PM
Yeah it's a while off for sure, but the idea of one economy in Ireland instead of two really is a strong one, but that's for another day. I just wonder how people from a unionist background here would react if Scotland left and the Union was in pieces. Would the UK work without Scotland or would England be better off alone as well if they left?

I'm not even clear whether Scottish 'independence' would definitely mean the end of the Union...SNP are saying they'll want to keep the pound, the Monarchy...so I'm not sure how that measures up in terms of breaking up the Union?

Dominion status as a solution perhaps?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Monday 21 January 2013, 09:32:11 PM
Complete separation of parliments but still unified by the crown.

The worst thing for Scotland would be using sterling and having that controlled by the bank of England.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Monday 21 January 2013, 09:36:19 PM
Yeah it's a while off for sure, but the idea of one economy in Ireland instead of two really is a strong one, but that's for another day. I just wonder how people from a unionist background here would react if Scotland left and the Union was in pieces. Would the UK work without Scotland or would England be better off alone as well if they left?

I'm not even clear whether Scottish 'independence' would definitely mean the end of the Union...SNP are saying they'll want to keep the pound, the Monarchy...so I'm not sure how that measures up in terms of breaking up the Union?

Aye, some of their plans are mental.  It's aimed at not alienating the blue bigots, if you ask me.  Think it's caused some concern within the SNP though, many want a complete separation from the Crown.  As would I. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Monday 21 January 2013, 10:01:57 PM
Yeah it's a while off for sure, but the idea of one economy in Ireland instead of two really is a strong one, but that's for another day. I just wonder how people from a unionist background here would react if Scotland left and the Union was in pieces. Would the UK work without Scotland or would England be better off alone as well if they left?

I'm not even clear whether Scottish 'independence' would definitely mean the end of the Union...SNP are saying they'll want to keep the pound, the Monarchy...so I'm not sure how that measures up in terms of breaking up the Union?

Aye, some of their plans are mental.  It's aimed at not alienating the blue bigots, if you ask me.  Think it's caused some concern within the SNP though, many want a complete separation from the Crown.  As would I. 

Yep the sterling thing seems to be a grey area. I'd prefer to be seperate from the crown too but can see why they are choosing not to right now if it is for the greater good. Suppose it's something that can be rectified later on anyway.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 23 January 2013, 10:23:02 PM
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/01/camerons-eu-referendum-pledge-makes-winning-the-battle-for-britain-more-difficult/ (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/01/camerons-eu-referendum-pledge-makes-winning-the-battle-for-britain-more-difficult/)

http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013/01/cameron-isnt-being-listened-to-in-scotland/ (http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013/01/cameron-isnt-being-listened-to-in-scotland/)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Thursday 24 January 2013, 02:43:49 AM
What up Bluf

http://gawker.com/5978507/scotlands-tourism-board-knows-exactly-how-to-get-people-to-visit-scotland-shetland-ponies-in-cardigan-sweaters (http://gawker.com/5978507/scotlands-tourism-board-knows-exactly-how-to-get-people-to-visit-scotland-shetland-ponies-in-cardigan-sweaters)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 24 January 2013, 08:30:17 PM
What up Bluf

http://gawker.com/5978507/scotlands-tourism-board-knows-exactly-how-to-get-people-to-visit-scotland-shetland-ponies-in-cardigan-sweaters (http://gawker.com/5978507/scotlands-tourism-board-knows-exactly-how-to-get-people-to-visit-scotland-shetland-ponies-in-cardigan-sweaters)

Nothing up, but that fucken stoopid. 

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Thursday 24 January 2013, 08:54:48 PM
:lol: I thought it was mint. I'll come for the Shetland ponies alone man. My size steed.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: ross magoo on Thursday 24 January 2013, 09:35:57 PM
The white paper is going to have to be dynamite.  A lot can change in 18 months but as things stand they're not only on course to lose the referendum, they're on course to get an absolute f***ing hiding.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 24 January 2013, 09:38:35 PM
Sadly. :undecided:

Although he's got a good year to work on the impressionable youth.  Did they establish whether the voting age was being lowered to 16 for it?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: ross magoo on Friday 25 January 2013, 05:30:08 PM
Sadly. :undecided:

Although he's got a good year to work on the impressionable youth.  Did they establish whether the voting age was being lowered to 16 for it?

I seem to remember that this had been agreed.  Under 18s are obviously more likely to vote for change.  But even with Salmond making up the rules as he goes along they'll probably still get a pasting.  At the moment i'm a "No" voter as the default position until i can be persuaded otherwise.  The white paper will be crucial.  Purely on a personal level though, out of all my friends the nationalists shout the loudest, talk about independence constantly, try to turn any conversation onto the subject of independence, and yet none of them can adequately answer one simple question: "How is independence going to make my life better?"

The silent majority are getting f***ing bored of it imo.  If i could go away on holiday for 18 months until this whole thing is finished then i would.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Village Idiot on Friday 25 January 2013, 05:50:43 PM
If the "yes" wins (which it probably won't as far as I have seen), we Catalans will probably follow suit.

No pressure.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Toon Hoser on Friday 25 January 2013, 05:59:08 PM
If the "yes" wins (which it probably won't as far as I have seen), we Catalans will probably follow suit.

No pressure.

Would add fuel to Quebec's fire too.   
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Friday 25 January 2013, 06:04:30 PM
If the "yes" wins (which it probably won't as far as I have seen), we Catalans will probably follow suit.

No pressure.

Would add fuel to Quebec's fire too.   

Most Canadians are ready to shoo them out the door too :lol:

I think Quebec's chances at successful secession are behind us.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 25 January 2013, 06:21:45 PM
Sadly. :undecided:

Although he's got a good year to work on the impressionable youth.  Did they establish whether the voting age was being lowered to 16 for it?

I seem to remember that this had been agreed.  Under 18s are obviously more likely to vote for change.  But even with Salmond making up the rules as he goes along they'll probably still get a pasting.  At the moment i'm a "No" voter as the default position until i can be persuaded otherwise.  The white paper will be crucial.  Purely on a personal level though, out of all my friends the nationalists shout the loudest, talk about independence constantly, try to turn any conversation onto the subject of independence, and yet none of them can adequately answer one simple question: "How is independence going to make my life better?"

The silent majority are getting f***ing bored of it imo.  If i could go away on holiday for 18 months until this whole thing is finished then i would.

Why does it all boil down to that single question for yourself? Not arguing or anything, genuinely interested.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Toon Hoser on Friday 25 January 2013, 08:24:44 PM
If the "yes" wins (which it probably won't as far as I have seen), we Catalans will probably follow suit.

No pressure.

Would add fuel to Quebec's fire too.   

Most Canadians are ready to shoo them out the door too :lol:

I think Quebec's chances at successful secession are behind us.

Meh, if it happens it happens.  It wouldn't be a disaster for either side and things would probably stay pretty much as they are. 

However it would p*ss me off having to deal with customs and border pricks everytime I go to Quebec.   :huff:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Friday 25 January 2013, 08:30:18 PM
If the "yes" wins (which it probably won't as far as I have seen), we Catalans will probably follow suit.

No pressure.

Would add fuel to Quebec's fire too.   

Most Canadians are ready to shoo them out the door too :lol:

I think Quebec's chances at successful secession are behind us.

Meh, if it happens it happens.  It wouldn't be a disaster for either side and things would probably stay pretty much as they are. 

However it would p*ss me off having to deal with customs and border pricks everytime I go to Quebec.   :huff:

I'd imagine there'd be some special border law like there would be in England/Scotland. Though we're all in the EU so is a bit different.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 25 January 2013, 09:25:53 PM
If quebecwon independence would they keep the queen as head of state :-)))
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: garth on Friday 25 January 2013, 09:32:36 PM
If the "yes" wins (which it probably won't as far as I have seen), we Catalans will probably follow suit.

No pressure.

Would add fuel to Quebec's fire too.   

Quebec won't leave now, not while Ottawa subsidises them to the tune of multi millions if not a billion each year . They'll loose to much money, especially as they are so proud of their health system over the rest of Canada. The Eastern board of Canada wouldn't like it either as they would feel a bit isolated from the rest of the country.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Friday 25 January 2013, 09:41:34 PM
If quebecwon independence would they keep the queen as head of state :-)))

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkmchoW9CB1qas7y3.gif)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 25 January 2013, 09:44:35 PM
If quebecwon independence would they keep the queen as head of state :-)))

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkmchoW9CB1qas7y3.gif)
:)
nobber :) :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 25 January 2013, 09:45:13 PM
:lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Friday 25 January 2013, 10:36:45 PM
Had a look at the last Quebec referendum there, No: 50.58% Yes: 49.42% :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: ross magoo on Saturday 26 January 2013, 04:11:14 AM
Sadly. :undecided:

Although he's got a good year to work on the impressionable youth.  Did they establish whether the voting age was being lowered to 16 for it?

I seem to remember that this had been agreed.  Under 18s are obviously more likely to vote for change.  But even with Salmond making up the rules as he goes along they'll probably still get a pasting.  At the moment i'm a "No" voter as the default position until i can be persuaded otherwise.  The white paper will be crucial.  Purely on a personal level though, out of all my friends the nationalists shout the loudest, talk about independence constantly, try to turn any conversation onto the subject of independence, and yet none of them can adequately answer one simple question: "How is independence going to make my life better?"

The silent majority are getting f***ing bored of it imo.  If i could go away on holiday for 18 months until this whole thing is finished then i would.

Why does it all boil down to that single question for yourself? Not arguing or anything, genuinely interested.

f***ing hell.

Why does it always boil down to the question of how will independence make my life better?

Because most people are interested in how independence is going to make their life better.

I'm away for a lie down for 18 months.  Wake me up when you've got an answer.  #politicsformongols
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Saturday 26 January 2013, 04:15:17 AM
:lol:

Bit harsh, mind.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Saturday 26 January 2013, 12:44:55 PM
 :lol:

No other questions to be raised then, just how it will improve YOUR life? No need to be such a t*** about it. Away and lie down and sleep off the aggro head.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Village Idiot on Saturday 26 January 2013, 02:57:31 PM
To be frank, the role of a nation is to make its citizens thrive, so Magoo's question is apt.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Saturday 26 January 2013, 03:11:02 PM
I agree VI, why consider just yourself though when you are making a decision that is going to effect everyone? I want a better place for everyone, not just me.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Toon Hoser on Saturday 26 January 2013, 03:37:10 PM
Most people vote for what's in their own best interests.  Cynical but true.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Saturday 26 January 2013, 05:40:11 PM
Most people vote for what's in their own best interests.  Cynical but true.

Some people are smart enough to know that what's in other people's best interests can also be in their own best interests too - call it 'enlightened self-interest'.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Saturday 26 January 2013, 06:05:46 PM
Most people vote for what's in their own best interests.  Cynical but true.

Some people are smart enough to know that what's in other people's best interests can also be in their own best interests too - call it 'enlightened self-interest'.

:thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Saturday 26 January 2013, 07:58:59 PM
Most people vote for what's in their own best interests.  Cynical but true.

Some people are smart enough to know that what's in other people's best interests can also be in their own best interests too - call it 'enlightened self-interest'.

:thup:

So you're going to vote no then?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Sunday 27 January 2013, 12:28:34 AM
Most people vote for what's in their own best interests.  Cynical but true.

Some people are smart enough to know that what's in other people's best interests can also be in their own best interests too - call it 'enlightened self-interest'.

:thup:

So you're going to vote no then?

I don't know. Nothing's cut or dried or as simple as that in real life and certainly not in the dance of eternal compromise played out in the murky world of politics.

I just want a federal system of government that allows people in Scotland to pursue the creation and sustenance of a society and economy that fits with what they want. Next to nobody wants Tory government in Scotland, and they sure as f*** don't want the poisonous, divisive, selfish policies of Cameron, Osborne, Gove, Hunt or Iain Duncan Smith. I want everyone's vote to actually mean something. Doesn't just now and won't ever until such time as there's real change in how we are governed.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Sunday 27 January 2013, 12:51:38 PM
Most people vote for what's in their own best interests.  Cynical but true.

Some people are smart enough to know that what's in other people's best interests can also be in their own best interests too - call it 'enlightened self-interest'.

:thup:

So you're going to vote no then?

There's nothing clear and concrete about us being better off together any more.  Like I've said, you come and live in Scotland and see how you like the arrangements we have.  We're just in a position where we don't have to put up with it any more.  I've no doubt parts of the north of England would want to get to f*** if they could, too.

It's simply a choice now between do you want to be in the Union, or not?  The Pros and Cons are all hot water, on both sides.  It's just do you want to be part of an increasingly broken Britain in terms of politics and priorities, or start a fresh.  And be accountable to ourselves and not the City of London.  Unionists can't even give positive arguments, all they do is try to claim Scotland will sink.  And let's face it, it won't. 

All they can point to beyond that is "WORLD INFLUENCE", but no-one gives a s*** about it.  We're fed up funding wars we should never have been involved in.  Nobody gives a f*** if we have a seat at the UN, never mind a veto.  We don't give a f*** about having THE BEST MILITARY IN THE WORLDS, we don't care for the BRITISH INFLUENCE in the business world. 

Britain is a sham, it has been for the last 30 years.  Nobody can even tell you what being British is all about, we have no integrated spirit any more, politicians have tried to tell us what our identity is for the last 15 years, and it's just a load of cockwash.  The latest attempt at extolling Britishness by the Tories is a case in point, using f***ing Princess Uglies and a Mini, for fucksake.  It's beyond fixing, and you know it, chief.

The f***ing lunatics running the asylum now want us out of the EU.  Talk about two steps back.  What's more, is it's being very well received amongst the electorate. 

Break it up, end this embarrassment and move on. 


You're describing what it's like to live in any western country currently, how's independence going to change any of that? You say that you want to break up the union, but don't want to leave the EU, but there's no guarantee that Scotland will get EU membership if it became independent. The future's integration, not separatism, people should be working towards improving the UK/EU not breaking them up. Do you really think that things will be different in an independent Scotland? I don't. The domination of the wealthy over the rest of us is a global problem, Scotland can't gain independence from the world so that's not going to change. All Scottish independence does is make us all a little bit worse off, nothing fundamental will change. Scotland's not going to suddenly become some kind of left-of-centre utopia, the global powers (I'm not talking about nation states here) will not allow it. Those of us who believe the world could be a better and more equal place need to get on with making it one, not wasting our time fighting over things like this, the smaller we are the weaker we are and we're pretty small and weak as it is currently. This is just yet another example of the leftist disease that is our continual in-fighting. The right can always put aside their differences and unite behind the desire to maintain their own wealth and power, yet the left always squabble and rip themselves apart arguing over the relative merits of their own pet projects. The difference is that they realise that this is an ongoing war and can accept losing a few battles so long as the tide is heading generally in their direction - which it undeniably is - whereas we are still unbelievably myopic and only focus on our own tiny little battles - most of which we lose anyway - seemingly oblivious to the fact that we're getting our arses kicked in general.

The only exception to the above is the EU, the right are well and truly split over that. Many of them can't seem to put aside their irrational nationalism and xenophobia to come together over that and they know that makes them vulnerable, the difference is that they are aware of that and for me it's no surprise that they're attempting to fan the flames of the exact same thing within the left at present. They've clearly decided that if they can't unify their own forces then they'll try to scatter ours and it's really sad that so many people are falling for it.

How does an independent Scotland destroy the global hegemony of the wealthy right, seriously what is it going to change? It doesn't and therefore nothing of significance will change for people in Scotland, you may have a slightly more left-wing government for a short while, but as soon as Scotland becomes worth the effort to those that oppose that, it will change. You could quite easily end up with a much more right-wing government in the longer term if "the markets" decide that's what they want and destroy your economy. The fact is Scotland would have a smaller economy than the UK as a whole and would therefore find it much harder to fight against that, regardless of what it's government of the time wants. The UK has a much better chance of going against the global trend towards the neo-con agenda (not that it would be easy, the EU as a whole stands a much better chance), all we need is a government with the desire to do so and minus Scotland that becomes much less likely.

Speaking of which, how would your opinion be affected by a Labour victory at the next general election? If the answer is anything other than "not at all" then you've come to the wrong conclusion about independence and your confusing your dislike of the tories with a dislike of the UK.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Sunday 27 January 2013, 01:19:03 PM
Most people vote for what's in their own best interests.  Cynical but true.

Some people are smart enough to know that what's in other people's best interests can also be in their own best interests too - call it 'enlightened self-interest'.

:thup:

So you're going to vote no then?

I don't know. Nothing's cut or dried or as simple as that in real life and certainly not in the dance of eternal compromise played out in the murky world of politics.

I just want a federal system of government that allows people in Scotland to pursue the creation and sustenance of a society and economy that fits with what they want. Next to nobody wants Tory government in Scotland, and they sure as f*** don't want the poisonous, divisive, selfish policies of Cameron, Osborne, Gove, Hunt or Iain Duncan Smith. I want everyone's vote to actually mean something. Doesn't just now and won't ever until such time as there's real change in how we are governed.

The best way to rid yourself of the tories is to win the argument against them and ensure that they get voted out at the next election, not give up and run away to hide. You realise that doing so is to hand them a de-facto victory? You'd be saying "I believe that our argument is never going to be strong enough to win the battle and convince enough of the population to support it." or in other words "You win." is that what you really believe?

I don't. I hold my views because I believe in them, I've thought about them long and hard and I think they're correct. I understand that a lot of people don't agree, and some will never agree, but I'm sure that enough of them would if only they were properly explained, but that won't be easy or quick. It's an argument, the most important argument of our times and one that will probably never go away. Those of us who actually give a s*** need to understand that and be prepared to do what's necessary to win it, or at least get to a position where our view is the dominant one. If you genuinely care about what happens, then you can't give up, you can't hide, or run away, because this argument will find you wherever you go, it's everywhere, even in an independent Scotland.

If you do end up living in an independent Scotland then fine, like I said to Bluf, nothing much will change either way because this is simply a distraction from what's really important. Just don't kid yourself that you've won, you haven't, you're fighting the wrong war. Although I'd prefer Scotland to remain within the UK, I won't take any pleasure if that's what happens, because either way we all lose, a lot of people will have had their eyes taken completely off the ball and you can bet your arse that our opponents will have taken advantage, they always do.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Sunday 27 January 2013, 02:42:39 PM
Indi, I don't disagree with your analysis that we need to win the fight and in an ideal world I'd have the UK run in the way GM just said, but Britain is too divided these days.  The fight is lost, you've siad yourself even those that apparently on the left nowadays are more to the right than ever before. 

It's never going to become a left-leaning nation because we have inherit problems on a grassroots levels that never get dealt with through enlightened education.  The xenophobia around today is just as bad as it was in the past 50 years.  We have a political system that rewards two parties and has kept them in power for well over 100 years now.  The change is never going to come to Britain, and that's why I want out.  If Orwell couldn't change it, no one will.

We can't even get PR on the debate.  We can't even keep benefits for the poor and vulnerable safe.  We can't even build upon a previous Government's successes, instead, each time, they just reverse everything each party has done.  We essentially stand still in terms of social progress.  We still cling on to an embarrassing monarchy.  We still fawn over the establishment.  We've become a nation obsessed with false idols.  Will Scotland be any different?  Not likely, but we do have a different voting class.  We don't subscribe to the right at all.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Sunday 27 January 2013, 03:20:58 PM
Indi, I don't disagree with your analysis that we need to win the fight and in an ideal world I'd have the UK run in the way GM just said, but Britain is too divided these days.  The fight is lost, you've siad yourself even those that apparently on the left nowadays are more to the right than ever before. 

It's never going to become a left-leaning nation because we have inherit problems on a grassroots levels that never get dealt with through enlightened education.  The xenophobia around today is just as bad as it was in the past 50 years.  We have a political system that rewards two parties and has kept them in power for well over 100 years now.  The change is never going to come to Britain, and that's why I want out.  If Orwell couldn't change it, no one will.

We can't even get PR on the debate.  We can't even keep benefits for the poor and vulnerable safe.  We can't even build upon a previous Government's successes, instead, each time, they just reverse everything each party has done.  We essentially stand still in terms of social progress.  We still cling on to an embarrassing monarchy.  We still fawn over the establishment.  We've become a nation obsessed with false idols.  Will Scotland be any different?  Not likely, but we do have a different voting class.  We don't subscribe to the right at all.

It's not lost, we're simply losing at this moment in time. Things change, the balance of power swings to and fro and has done since the dawn of time. Significant progress has been made; the Representation of the People act isn't even a hundred years old, the modern welfare state and the NHS are only 68. Yes, the right-wing self-centred doctrine is dominant at present, but their powers are still somewhat held in-check by the work of previous generations and we owe it to them and subsequent ones not to give up and let it all be wiped away just because things are tough right now.

I agree with a lot of what you've identified as the problems of the modern age, but if you think Scottish independence is the answer to them, then you're wrong. At best it is irrelevant to them, at worst it hinders the fight to against them. I asked you before how independence solves these issues and also if your decision would be affected by a change of government in the UK, I'm still interested to hear your answers.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Sunday 27 January 2013, 03:33:23 PM
Indi, I don't disagree with your analysis that we need to win the fight and in an ideal world I'd have the UK run in the way GM just said, but Britain is too divided these days.  The fight is lost, you've siad yourself even those that apparently on the left nowadays are more to the right than ever before. 

It's never going to become a left-leaning nation because we have inherit problems on a grassroots levels that never get dealt with through enlightened education.  The xenophobia around today is just as bad as it was in the past 50 years.  We have a political system that rewards two parties and has kept them in power for well over 100 years now.  The change is never going to come to Britain, and that's why I want out.  If Orwell couldn't change it, no one will.

We can't even get PR on the debate.  We can't even keep benefits for the poor and vulnerable safe.  We can't even build upon a previous Government's successes, instead, each time, they just reverse everything each party has done.  We essentially stand still in terms of social progress.  We still cling on to an embarrassing monarchy.  We still fawn over the establishment.  We've become a nation obsessed with false idols.  Will Scotland be any different?  Not likely, but we do have a different voting class.  We don't subscribe to the right at all.

It's not lost, we're simply losing at this moment in time. Things change, the balance of power swings to and fro and has done since the dawn of time. Significant progress has been made; the Representation of the People act isn't even a hundred years old, the modern welfare state and the NHS are only 68. Yes, the right-wing self-centred doctrine is dominant at present, but their powers are still somewhat held in-check by the work of previous generations and we owe it to them and subsequent ones not to give up and let it all be wiped away just because things are tough right now.

I agree with a lot of what you've identified as the problems of the modern age, but if you think Scottish independence is the answer to them, then you're wrong. At best it is irrelevant to them, at worst it hinders the fight to against them. I asked you before how independence solves these issues and also if your decision would be affected by a change of government in the UK, I'm still interested to hear your answers.

Do you have a Twitter account indi? If so, please take these arguments over there to debate with the cybernats on #indyref and #YesScotland. Would be a pleasure to see some sanity brought into the debate, in all honesty. :)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Monday 28 January 2013, 05:57:39 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/27/cameron-eu-plans-scotland-referendum

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/25/scottish-nationalists-no-monopoly-on-scottishness

Tell you what, I find Indi's argument for remaining in the union a lot stronger than anything in that article.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Monday 28 January 2013, 07:50:28 PM
:lol:

Aye, colin, I was about to come in and say that, and that this is the closest I've been to jumping back on the Unionist side.  Unfortunately, Indi is a lone ranger ranger in the Unionist intelligentsia, the rest if them are f***ing idiots.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Parky on Monday 28 January 2013, 07:58:02 PM
They will never vote for independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Monday 28 January 2013, 08:03:07 PM
I always said that when I was on the unionist side, and now I'm on this side, it still seems the same.  However, the true impact of the Tory cuts have yet to hit, and I think the next year and a half are going to see some dramatic changes this side of the border.  I think it'll be a close call, but ultimately a no, bit like Quebec's.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Monday 28 January 2013, 08:50:28 PM
I always said that when I was on the unionist side, and now I'm on this side, it still seems the same.  However, the true impact of the Tory cuts have yet to hit, and I think the next year and a half are going to see some dramatic changes this side of the border.  I think it'll be a close call, but ultimately a no, bit like Quebec's.

Regarding public spending cuts - they're not exclusively Tory - and I don't think a clear case has been made by Independenistas which explains how Scotland would somehow manage to sustain its current level of public spending commitments and policy choices once they'd gained independence. They're all about promising jam tomorrow, but there's not enough bread to go round...so I fail to see how independence would mean Scotland and its people were any the richer?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Monday 28 January 2013, 08:56:10 PM
I always said that when I was on the unionist side, and now I'm on this side, it still seems the same.  However, the true impact of the Tory cuts have yet to hit, and I think the next year and a half are going to see some dramatic changes this side of the border.  I think it'll be a close call, but ultimately a no, bit like Quebec's.

Regarding public spending cuts - they're not exclusively Tory - and I don't think a clear case has been made by Independenistas which explains how Scotland would somehow manage to sustain its current level of public spending commitments and policy choices once they'd gained independence. They're all about promising jam tomorrow, but there's not enough bread to go round...so I fail to see how independence would mean Scotland and its people were any the richer?

I definitely don't see it as a case of us being better off, but that we'd be less hamstrung by a Westminster Government, whether it be Labour or Tory, that's generally obsessed with being a big player on the world stage both politically and militarily.  I mean, that article you posted a while back, had it down that we'd be a £1 worse of per person if we were independent, and that it would be a small price to pay for an end to policies we are not interested in and in no-way benefit the Scots. 

I also accept that all the cuts aren't Tory cuts, but the most damaging are. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: neesy111 on Wednesday 30 January 2013, 12:49:41 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21245701
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Wednesday 30 January 2013, 11:12:03 PM
Increasingly unlikely that the "Yes" campaign will win this one, now. Only a matter of time before it implodes...which isn't so bad, except it will mean that what Scottish people actually do want (Devo Plus) will also likely slip through their fingers when a resounding "No" vote gives Cameron his "mandate" to deny any further powers to be devolved. Deary me. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, eh?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 30 January 2013, 11:13:52 PM
Yeah... :undecided:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 31 January 2013, 12:01:21 AM
I agree with this guy http://www.scotsman.com/news/jim-sillars-yes-must-educate-agitate-organise-1-2763574
They have to do more to get through to the people and start thinking a little bit more radical than the SNP are doing. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Thursday 31 January 2013, 12:10:51 AM
Ah yes, Jim Sillars. No axe to grind with the SNP leadership at all, eh? Or maybe a gigantic one.

Seriously, Google him. Then see if you still think he's saying that got the best of reasons... ;)

Edit: that said, he's got more than just a few decent points in that piece, I have to admit.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 31 January 2013, 12:13:51 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2013/jan/30/scottish-independence-referendum-question-cartoon

:lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 31 January 2013, 12:16:20 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Thursday 31 January 2013, 12:18:24 AM
I think that cartoon us meant to be referring to this episode during Prime Minister's Questions: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=share&v=5v2vPsxwKXE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5v2vPsxwKXE%26feature%3Dshare&gl=GB

Cameron mouthed "f*** Off!" to the SNP benches... :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 31 January 2013, 12:20:27 AM
Nah, I've been arguing with someone on FB about this.  He did no such thing, we can do better than that.  There'd be uproar from the likes of Skinner if he actually did it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Monday 4 March 2013, 12:27:35 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrew-smith/britain-rebirth-little-england_b_2758906.html

Good read.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 26 March 2013, 04:54:47 PM
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/childcare-vow-offers-tantalising-prospect.20601015

I find this very interesting. Sounds great to me, will be more than happy to pay higher taxes if this is what will be done with it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Tuesday 26 March 2013, 08:51:05 PM
Interest YES video, not on youtube as uses copyrighted NO footage.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=553739714657032
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Saturday 27 July 2013, 09:23:12 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/jul/26/scottish-independence-northeast-england

Makes sense.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Troll on Saturday 27 July 2013, 09:29:47 PM
A couple of days ago on twitter I jokingly said that as an Englishman in Scotland I'd vote "no" because we'd never get rid of the Tories without them.  Since then my timeline's been flooded with Scots telling me it's not true, I should do my research, and that Labour wins in the past haven't been due to the Scot votes.  Even if that is the case, are there any reasons why independence would be a good thing for the rest of the UK?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Saturday 27 July 2013, 09:38:43 PM
A couple of days ago on twitter I jokingly said that as an Englishman in Scotland I'd vote "no" because we'd never get rid of the Tories without them.  Since then my timeline's been flooded with Scots telling me it's not true, I should do my research, and that Labour wins in the past haven't been due to the Scot votes.  Even if that is the case, are there any reasons why independence would be a good thing for the rest of the UK?

Yeah that's certainly true about the voting thing, I've read that myself.

I think it might benefit the rest of the UK in that it might put increased focused pressure on the westminster/london stranglehold.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/01/10/irvine-welsh-on-scottish-independence-and-british-unity/ A great read by Irvine Welsh on the possibilities.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Saturday 27 July 2013, 09:51:45 PM
Edinburgh: the new Singapore
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Tuesday 26 November 2013, 03:01:52 PM
Their blueprint for independence has been released:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25088251

In full:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/11/9348/0

I still think there's no chance of independence yet, what is the opinion like in Scotland?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Tuesday 26 November 2013, 04:15:34 PM
Most seem downbeat and expect a No win.  No one has faith, been bought off with the destruction of Scotland myth should they get independence. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 26 November 2013, 04:38:02 PM
Or they have come to their senses.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: triggs on Tuesday 26 November 2013, 04:46:19 PM
At least Scotland show some bit of desire to be independent. Wales is just a farce of a country
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 26 November 2013, 04:49:55 PM
They know who butters their toast.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 26 November 2013, 05:13:27 PM
Got it, looking forward to reading. Genuinely excited by it all at the moment, things like 'the common weal' are getting more coverage which is fantastic. People need to wake up, more are starting to imo and even if it is a 'no' vote at least this is getting people interested. The don't knows are there to be won at the moment.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 09:14:16 AM
Myself and most my Scotland-based/Scottish friends are YES but hard to imagine there being enough of a swing. Such a shame to waste this opportunity. I hope a No doesn't end the debate on increased devolution. Not sure why you'd want to be part of such a London-centric nation, I only wish the north-east could join Scotland. Nevertheless, development and a capital so close to Newcastle could be a great thing.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 10:09:03 AM
Could also take work away from the north east.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: brummie on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 12:06:15 PM
I find the debate on this interesting not so much in terms of what it means for Scotland (though it's hard to imagine a nation with a population of 5m managing to pay for half of the things the SNP want to do, oil money or no oil money), but in the frame of what it means for England.

Ultimately the problem for the UK is that it is so London-centric. It isn't really Scotland that should be detached from the rest of the UK, it is the south east of England.

Over the last few decades, things have focused on London so much that cities that made this country what it used to be, big, provincial cities, have been totally neglected.

Good things which have happened in those cities, in terms of regeneration or re-structuring to replace old industries with new ones, have happened despite central government, rather than because of it.

Look at the hoo-ha over HS2. It's hard not to believe that the expense of that project would be looked upon way more kindly were it a south-east only project. Look at the £15bn being spent on Crossrail, for example, and compare that with the attitude to projects in provincial England.

Look how long it took to find the £400m to do something about Birmingham New St -  a problematic infrastructure right at the centre of the entire national rail network.

It isn't just in terms of Scottish independence that we should be thinking of further devolution, it should be about moving powers (legal and financial) from central government out to the regions, and letting them run their own finances, otherwise we'll have an increasingly premier league capital (even if it is largely paid for my foreign money going into property) and a remainder of the country which is, at the very best, mid Championship.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: neesy111 on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 12:11:00 PM
Look at the hoo-ha over HS2. It's hard not to believe that the expense of that project would be looked upon way more kindly were it a south-east only project. Look at the £15bn being spent on Crossrail, for example, and compare that with the attitude to projects in provincial England.

Look how long it took to find the £400m to do something about Birmingham New St -  a problematic infrastructure right at the centre of the entire national rail network.

During the 3 years before the 2010 the North East had transport investment at £15 a head while it London and the south east it was at £1500 due to Cross Rail and the Olympics.  Absolutely ridiculous.

Yet people say Labour did well for the region.....
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 12:17:01 PM
Not sure why it is such a leap of faith to think that we can do that Brummie when plenty of other European nations with similar populations have the things they are proposing in the white paper. Agree with the rest of your post.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 03:14:03 PM
Didn't the north-east reject (in a referendum) regional devolution - a pet project of Prescott? It was before I could vote, but I'm not sure why it was so dismissed - sounds like a good idea to me.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 03:29:48 PM
Look at the hoo-ha over HS2. It's hard not to believe that the expense of that project would be looked upon way more kindly were it a south-east only project. Look at the £15bn being spent on Crossrail, for example, and compare that with the attitude to projects in provincial England.

Look how long it took to find the £400m to do something about Birmingham New St -  a problematic infrastructure right at the centre of the entire national rail network.

During the 3 years before the 2010 the North East had transport investment at £15 a head while it London and the south east it was at £1500 due to Cross Rail and the Olympics.  Absolutely ridiculous.

Yet people say Labour did well for the region.....

Those are two quite specific projects though aren't they? They skew the results a bit. I'm not denying the south does better mind.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 05:31:25 PM
Didn't the north-east reject (in a referendum) regional devolution - a pet project of Prescott? It was before I could vote, but I'm not sure why it was so dismissed - sounds like a good idea to me.

p*ss poor turn out.  Peoole werent interested and the campaign was p*ss poor
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: indi on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 05:32:58 PM
I find the debate on this interesting not so much in terms of what it means for Scotland (though it's hard to imagine a nation with a population of 5m managing to pay for half of the things the SNP want to do, oil money or no oil money), but in the frame of what it means for England.

Ultimately the problem for the UK is that it is so London-centric. It isn't really Scotland that should be detached from the rest of the UK, it is the south east of England.

Over the last few decades, things have focused on London so much that cities that made this country what it used to be, big, provincial cities, have been totally neglected.

Good things which have happened in those cities, in terms of regeneration or re-structuring to replace old industries with new ones, have happened despite central government, rather than because of it.

Look at the hoo-ha over HS2. It's hard not to believe that the expense of that project would be looked upon way more kindly were it a south-east only project. Look at the £15bn being spent on Crossrail, for example, and compare that with the attitude to projects in provincial England.

Look how long it took to find the £400m to do something about Birmingham New St -  a problematic infrastructure right at the centre of the entire national rail network.

It isn't just in terms of Scottish independence that we should be thinking of further devolution, it should be about moving powers (legal and financial) from central government out to the regions, and letting them run their own finances, otherwise we'll have an increasingly premier league capital (even if it is largely paid for my foreign money going into property) and a remainder of the country which is, at the very best, mid Championship.

You can blame this lot for that not happening. ;)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: triggs on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 05:50:43 PM
Scotland actually annoys me the more I think about it. Every Scottish person I know "hates" England but when they get the chance to get independence, most of them are too afraid to leave
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 06:17:51 PM
Or they have come to their senses.

There's no sense in thinking Scotland will fall apart if independent.  Genuinely no problem with No supporters in theory, I'm still a little back and forth myself.  All this campaign has done for me is highlight just how ignorant the majority of the electorate are.  They've not got a f***ing clue, jump from one spurious claim to another. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 06:22:32 PM
Didn't the north-east reject (in a referendum) regional devolution - a pet project of Prescott? It was before I could vote, but I'm not sure why it was so dismissed - sounds like a good idea to me.

p*ss poor turn out.  Peoole werent interested and the campaign was p*ss poor
and it was sold, falsely by the no campaign, as "another" tier of government.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 06:23:28 PM
Look at the hoo-ha over HS2. It's hard not to believe that the expense of that project would be looked upon way more kindly were it a south-east only project. Look at the £15bn being spent on Crossrail, for example, and compare that with the attitude to projects in provincial England.

Look how long it took to find the £400m to do something about Birmingham New St -  a problematic infrastructure right at the centre of the entire national rail network.

During the 3 years before the 2010 the North East had transport investment at £15 a head while it London and the south east it was at £1500 due to Cross Rail and the Olympics.  Absolutely ridiculous.

Yet people say Labour did well for the region.....
"well" or less of a spiteful rape we'd get of the tories.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 09:47:32 PM
Or they have come to their senses.

There's no sense in thinking Scotland will fall apart if independent.  Genuinely no problem with No supporters in theory, I'm still a little back and forth myself.  All this campaign has done for me is highlight just how ignorant the majority of the electorate are.  They've not got a f***ing clue, jump from one spurious claim to another. 

The fear in this country is crazy man, I thought it was just people being stupid but not it has had time to settle with me I think the majority have just had drummed into them their whole lives and can't snap out of it. You been to any of the RiC conferences Bluf? Seems to be where the most sense it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 10:17:20 PM
I personally love scotland.  Its got a special place in my heart.  Ill be gutted if it goes off on its own.  But thats just my own personal feelings on it.

will it work? Maybe, maybe not.

I also dont like tge idea of being left alone with the rest of tge country
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Wednesday 27 November 2013, 10:21:42 PM
Hopefully it won't happen :thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 10:22:33 AM
It's a fair point Gimp and the one reason from the other side of the argument that I struggle to argue with. This is coming from real people like yourself obviously and not from Westminster so it's not an argument the idiots in charge of the 'NO' campaign will ever really bring up. I did see evidence a while back that says that the Scottish vote hasn't actually had as much influence as people think over the years but even still I don't want to see Northern England left in any worse a position as a result of us leaving the UK. I think either it will be worse off(hope not) or it could be a catalyst towards progression throughout the UK. I've posted this a few times already I think but Irvine Welsh has a great point about it all here. http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/01/10/irvine-welsh-on-scottish-independence-and-british-unity/

In terms of the symbolistic view of us going it alone, I don't think there will be much difference. We will be neighbours whether politically divided or not(we already are very much politically divided anyway).

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 28 November 2013, 10:45:41 AM
The No campaign hasn't really done much so far?  Has the Independence movement started to early?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:12:49 AM
I also dont like tge idea of being left alone with the rest of tge country

:lol: most compelling argument i've heard for them staying

being left with the welsh, irish and tories :scared:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:19:25 AM
The No campaign hasn't really done much so far?  Has the Independence movement started to early?

The No campaign has offered nothing positive to the debate, they haven't told us what we will we get if we vote No they have only offered negative visions of what it will be like if we vote Yes. Their only real argument is 'but you can't be sure what's going to happen because you'll have to negotiate'. We know that, we also know that the UK government is a farce and we can't be sure where we will be with them in 10 years time, far from it. There are rarely certainties in politics anyway? I think in terms of the SNP, the independence movement hasn't fully begun yet(so they claim anyway) but the Yes campaign in general have been doing a good job at grass-roots level for the past couple of years, getting people interested in things that matter.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: brummie on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:25:32 AM
The No campaign hasn't really done much so far?  Has the Independence movement started to early?

The no campaign doesn't really need to do much other than avoid putting their foot in it unnecessarily.

In outlining their case, and being pressed on the unclear bits, the Yes campaign raise enough questions themselves, questions they don't have much of an answer to.

It all seems based on goodwill.

"We will keep the pound and form a currency union with the UK"
"What if the UK doesn't want a currency union with Scotland?"
"The pound is as much ours as it is the UK's"
"The pound is the currency of the UK, and you're leaving the UK. What if they refuse currency union?"
"But the shouldn't"
"But what if they do?"

and that's the point at which it starts to get very unclear indeed.

I don't personally give too much of a toss one way or the other re Scottish independence. In fact, I understand the appeal of it in many ways, but the entire thing is based on assumed goodwill. They'll get to keep the pound, they'll get to keep almost all the oil money, they'll get away with taking only a small chunk of national debt with them, they're going to run their own army but it'll doubtless use the UK military infrastructure, they're going to be admitted to NATO because they're geographically in the North Atlantic ... etc etc etc.

They are hundreds of practical questions like this, and as far as I can tell, they don't seem to be able to answer them other than say what they think *should* happen, whilst avoiding discussing what happens if things don't go their way.

The futures of 5m people riding on this, there's just no room for not addressing these issues, it's too important.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:43:25 AM
Don't have time to fully answer just now but disagree with most points there Brummie. Especially this theory of 'goodwill'. To keep the currency union isn't just in the interests of Scotland, it's int he interests of the UK as we are England's second largest trading partner(various Westminster sources have admitted this and the fact they are not saying the wont do it says it all). To go against it because of a lack of goodwill would surely be one of the worst political decisions ever. Not only that it would not be in the interests of the people of the rest of the UK, something that Westminster has agreed to do during negotiations in the event of a Yes vote. Something that Scotland has agreed to do too.

In terms of infrastructure etc it isn't on goodwill we would be taking it, it is taking our share based on our percentage.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:51:22 AM
From the yes capign it all smells of roses but in reality there must be some epic risks...which they are keeping quiet on. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 12:00:11 PM
From the yes capign it all smells of roses but in reality there must be some epic risks...which they are keeping quiet on. 

Not arguing with that. Plenty of risks sticking with London too though, like f***ing UKIP getting in.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 28 November 2013, 12:13:23 PM
Cant ever see them getting in.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Thursday 28 November 2013, 01:11:03 PM
I also dont like tge idea of being left alone with the rest of tge country

:lol: most compelling argument i've heard for them staying

being left with the welsh, irish and tories :scared:

You're more than welcome to get rid of us.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: neesy111 on Thursday 28 November 2013, 01:27:16 PM
From the yes capign it all smells of roses but in reality there must be some epic risks...which they are keeping quiet on. 

Not arguing with that. Plenty of risks sticking with London too though, like f***ing UKIP getting in.

UKIP getting into power.  Not a chance, they've lost most of the momentum from the last year in anycase.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Thursday 28 November 2013, 03:19:47 PM
From the yes capign it all smells of roses but in reality there must be some epic risks...which they are keeping quiet on. 

Not arguing with that. Plenty of risks sticking with London too though, like f***ing UKIP getting in.

UKIP getting into power.  Not a chance, they've lost most of the momentum from the last year in anycase.

They won't get into power, but they're wielding significant influence already by pulling the tories to the right as they worry about losing voters to them.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 28 November 2013, 03:33:09 PM
From the yes capign it all smells of roses but in reality there must be some epic risks...which they are keeping quiet on. 

Not arguing with that. Plenty of risks sticking with London too though, like f***ing UKIP getting in.

I really hope the majority of the Scottish electorate are more intelligent than this guy.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 03:48:20 PM
 :lol: Don't worry yourself, chances are they are. Good to see you offering an informed opinion as usual Ronaldo.  O0
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: triggs on Thursday 28 November 2013, 05:49:51 PM
Hopefully it won't happen :thup:
If Scotland do get independence, would people in Northern Ireland begin to want independence aswell do you think?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 28 November 2013, 07:04:59 PM
Hopefully it won't happen :thup:
If Scotland do get independence, would people in Northern Ireland begin to want independence aswell do you think?

Not sure how NI could support itself.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 28 November 2013, 07:16:27 PM
Nobody is getting independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 28 November 2013, 07:17:53 PM
Oh well, thats it then.  Ronaldo has decided.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Thursday 28 November 2013, 07:56:33 PM
Still as boring as f***.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 28 November 2013, 08:18:57 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Thursday 28 November 2013, 08:24:28 PM
Hopefully it won't happen :thup:
If Scotland do get independence, would people in Northern Ireland begin to want independence aswell do you think?

That's never happening. People here are in two groups - Unionism/no change and nationalism (which ultimately wants the reunification of Ireland). Nobody here wants N.Ireland becoming a stand alone country, and if they do then they're crazy.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Dave on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:08:56 PM
I find the debate interesting, but struggling to care about the outcome.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: WarrenBartonCentrePartin on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:11:28 PM
Tweeted Limmy saying he should've been on QT.

He responded saying he did get asked.  Phone is now going crackers as the entire population of Scotland respond to his reply.  :anguish:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Hudson on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:12:47 PM
The whole thing just feels like a distracion for some reason.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:14:44 PM
Tweeted Limmy saying he should've been on QT.

He responded saying he did get asked.  Phone is now going crackers as the entire population of Scotland respond to his reply.  :anguish:

 :lol: Would love Limmy on this. Can just imagine his face when the camera pans round to him.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Spider Jerusalem on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:23:45 PM
Watching the QT tonight, the thing f***ing me off personally is hearing 'Scotland has the choice'.  Isn't it more a case that 'Whoever is in Scotland at the time' has the choice, including the immgants (sic) that arein the country and excluding actual Scots from the vote?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Interpolic on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:27:39 PM
Can't help thinking the North East would be beyond f***ed if this happened like.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:28:13 PM
Fight!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Kimbo on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:29:51 PM
That mental woman wants throwing in a ravine, I would love to see her argue with David Starkey.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Spider Jerusalem on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:31:22 PM
We've been beyond f***ed for years though - Conservatives who don't give a f*** because they'll never do anything to 'earn' a vote, and Labour who don't have to earn a vote because of the 'My dad voted labour, his dad voted labour, his dat voted labour, his cat voted labour' blinkers.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:31:41 PM
So tedious this. Shut the f*** up you nationalist t***s and take your rightful place in the bosom of the UK.

All the SNP are ugly. Salmond is a fat mess and I hate the divisions he's trying to impose. Sickening.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Dave on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:33:29 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:35:15 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

If it's anything like "we'll keep the pound and queen and all that", yes, they'll try.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Spider Jerusalem on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:35:24 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:37:15 PM
lol @ falkirk
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:38:38 PM
Falkirk brings shame on Scotland.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:38:38 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: neesy111 on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:40:16 PM
If they vote yes, I hope we tell them to get stuffed with some currency union.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:42:36 PM
Haven't paid any real attention to this but it seems to me that the plan is to f*** off and be "independent" but keep lots of handy "benefits" thus not really embracing true independence at all.

Is this roughly right?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Spider Jerusalem on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:43:20 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?

Stay in the pound, have the British passport, military protection, no border controls, immediate access to NATO / the EU for a start.  If you want to be independant be independant, not do a half arsed job.  I'm all for it if you want it, but not a watered down excuse that is just a reason to get Salmond into the history books as the new William Wallace.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:43:47 PM
Hopefully it won't happen :thup:
If Scotland do get independence, would people in Northern Ireland begin to want independence aswell do you think?

That's never happening. People here are in two groups - Unionism/no change and nationalism (which ultimately wants the reunification of Ireland). Nobody here wants N.Ireland becoming a stand alone country, and if they do then they're crazy.
Decky knows :thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:48:13 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?

Stay in the pound, have the British passport, military protection, no border controls, immediate access to NATO / the EU for a start.  If you want to be independant be independant, not do a half arsed job.  I'm all for it if you want it, but not a watered down excuse that is just a reason to get Salmond into the history books as the new William Wallace.

It's our pound too.

We can't keep a passport we have paid for?

We'd be getting our own military protection and applying for NATO membership....how is that unreasonable?

We are citizens of the EU and will apply through the correct legal channels for membership, just like a s*** load of other countries have in the past. The EU will 99.99999% want Scotland because of our resources. Tell me how they can do anymore?

We want independence because Westminster doesn't work for us, it's got f*** all to do with William Wallace and f*** all in the long term to do with Alex Salmond. Honestly, if you guys 'don't care' why are you so hostile towards it?

Neesy, your comment is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Spider Jerusalem on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:50:26 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?

Stay in the pound, have the British passport, military protection, no border controls, immediate access to NATO / the EU for a start.  If you want to be independant be independant, not do a half arsed job.  I'm all for it if you want it, but not a watered down excuse that is just a reason to get Salmond into the history books as the new William Wallace.

It's our pound too.

We can't keep a passport we have paid for?

We'd be getting our own military protection and applying for NATO membership....how is that unreasonable?

We are citizens of the EU and will apply through the correct legal channels for membership, just like a s*** load of other countries have in the past. The EU will 99.99999% want Scotland because of our resources. Tell me how they can do anymore?

We want independence because Westminster doesn't work for us, it's got f*** all to do with William Wallace and f*** all in the long term to do with Alex Salmond. Honestly, if you guys 'don't care' why are you so hostile towards it?

Neesy, your comment is ridiculous.

If you want independance it's all stuff you have to walk away from, it's not being forced on you?

EDIT - The UK is a member of the EU / NATO, not England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Isle of White.  If any of those constituant parts left the UK then how can they expect to be part of the old agreement?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:54:29 PM
You don't. You're choosing to.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:59:25 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?

Stay in the pound, have the British passport, military protection, no border controls, immediate access to NATO / the EU for a start.  If you want to be independant be independant, not do a half arsed job.  I'm all for it if you want it, but not a watered down excuse that is just a reason to get Salmond into the history books as the new William Wallace.

It's our pound too.

We can't keep a passport we have paid for?

We'd be getting our own military protection and applying for NATO membership....how is that unreasonable?

We are citizens of the EU and will apply through the correct legal channels for membership, just like a s*** load of other countries have in the past. The EU will 99.99999% want Scotland because of our resources. Tell me how they can do anymore?

We want independence because Westminster doesn't work for us, it's got f*** all to do with William Wallace and f*** all in the long term to do with Alex Salmond. Honestly, if you guys 'don't care' why are you so hostile towards it?

Neesy, your comment is ridiculous.

If you want independance it's all stuff you have to walk away from, it's not being forced on you?

EDIT - The UK is a member of the EU / NATO, not England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Isle of White.  If any of those constituant parts left the UK then how can they expect to be part of the old agreement?

In the event of independence we are still UK citizens until 2016, still a member of Nato and still a member of the EU. That's definite. From 2014 to 2016 we'd be negotiating with the EU and NATO to continue our membership. We could expect to continue to be part of the agreement post 2016 if we agree terms, we offers huge resources to the EU so it is highly unlikely we won't.

Still, I don't see how that is unreasonable?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 28 November 2013, 11:59:40 PM
Nice delete. :thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Stifleaay on Friday 29 November 2013, 12:02:31 AM
Can't help thinking the North East would be beyond f***ed if this happened like.
Thats the general perception.

The only way to get HSR here is if the line went on to Scotland, there would be no reason to duel the A1. Loads of foreign investment would possibly go to Scotland (I.E. for renewable energy) instead of the North East.

It would be a massive blow for the Labour party as well.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Spider Jerusalem on Friday 29 November 2013, 12:29:17 AM
Still, I don't see how that is unreasonable?

So you don't see how retaining direct say and an effect in the economy of a country that you no longer have a part of is unreasonable?  Misrepresenting yourself as a citizen of another country and getting the same protections as a country you no longer have a part of is unreasonable?

It's all choice, one that has been taken by many Euro countries over the past three decades and they didn't seem to be wanting to hang onto thier Yugoslavian, East German, USSR, Czech and whatever rulers, passports or economic ties.

Sorry, but as an outsider looking in on this it looks to me like someone trying to get thier name in the history books as the man who returned 'Freedom' to Scotland, in the most watered down way that won't lead his country to ruination in his lifetime.

Do I think it's a good move for Scotland?  Honestly, not in the slightest, as it's being driven by the wrong people at the top (on both sides of the border the 'oh don't leave' speil from the government looks very half-hearted at best) and at the wrong time.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 29 November 2013, 01:06:16 AM
Still, I don't see how that is unreasonable?

So you don't see how retaining direct say and an effect in the economy of a country that you no longer have a part of is unreasonable?  Misrepresenting yourself as a citizen of another country and getting the same protections as a country you no longer have a part of is unreasonable?

It's all choice, one that has been taken by many Euro countries over the past three decades and they didn't seem to be wanting to hang onto thier Yugoslavian, East German, USSR, Czech and whatever rulers, passports or economic ties.

Sorry, but as an outsider looking in on this it looks to me like someone trying to get thier name in the history books as the man who returned 'Freedom' to Scotland, in the most watered down way that won't lead his country to ruination in his lifetime.

Do I think it's a good move for Scotland?  Honestly, not in the slightest, as it's being driven by the wrong people at the top (on both sides of the border the 'oh don't leave' speil from the government looks very half-hearted at best) and at the wrong time.

It would be more unreasonable for us to ditch the pound. It would cause a lot of bother for the rest of the UK. Come off it man, having a british passport until it expires is not really a big deal is it, who does that harm or upset? As I said before about NATO, that's down to negotiations so that must mean we are meeting their requirements in a reasonable manner. So no, I don't think it's unreasonable to have these things.

Personally I'm with Harvie on the currency issue and I hope we ditch the pound eventually but it makes sense for now, for Scotland and the UK to keep that particular tie.

Fair play on your view of the whole thing, it probably seems like that to a lot of people but for me that is how the media is portraying it and it's nonsense. A lot of the people in the YES campaign for me are the right people at the right time and I'm not talking about the SNP in particular although I do like what they have put on the table. I'm not saying it will be a bed of roses but the alternative is proven to be broken.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: jdckelly on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:17:33 AM
finding this interesting as a complete outsider but that guy Salmond seems a bit of a tit, its the EU thing above all else thats baffling me, the perception they're trying to create is they can get straight in more or less which theres no chance of Spain in particular would never allow it which means starting from scratch and that could take a long time.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Miercoles on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:02:11 AM
Weirdest thing to me is the idea of keeping the Queen as "head of state"

but obviously I don't understand monarchies to begin with, so uhhh, carry on I guess.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:10:23 AM
Weirdest thing to me is the idea of keeping the Queen as "head of state"

but obviously I don't understand monarchies to begin with, so uhhh, carry on I guess.

Well, there's essentially 2 major links between Scotland and England: the royal one dating back to King James I known as the Union of the Crowns, and the Act of Union 1707 which essentially formed the UK. That horrible little b****** Salmond only want to repeal the latter.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Miercoles on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:17:45 AM
Just seems weird to me... Why would you want to keep someone else's royalty?

Same thing with Australia and Canada right? Makes no f***ing sense to me at all. If you want to be independent why would you want to have a foreign King?


I guess my real question is what value or benefit do the scottish people feel like they are getting from "having the queen" ?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:27:48 AM
From Salmond's perspective it avoids, to a degree, alienating pro-monarch voters.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Friday 29 November 2013, 06:40:56 AM
Just like including kids allows him to brainwash the youth (something I've seen every day this week, they actively approach school kids).
Title: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: NUFC_Chris on Friday 29 November 2013, 07:25:11 AM
Must admit I think it would be quite sad if they left after 700 years of a union.  I do find some of the SNP's chatter rather bizarre. Their assertion that they could keep the pound for example, but if you vote to leave the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northen Ireland I don't think they should keep the pound. Border controls etc should be reapplied, new rules for scots working in England etc, etc.  Like opening a whole can of worms if you ask me.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Varadi on Friday 29 November 2013, 07:33:36 AM
I've been finding the debate quite interesting, although it is a little tricky to dig through all the scaremongering and bullshit to find the actual facts. Hope the whole thing doesn't descend into completely negative campaigning, which seems like the way it's headed.

Think they'll end up staying in the end, although if they do leave and make a big success of it I have the benefit of a Scottish wife so I can get straight on the bandwagon - quite like the idea of dual nationality!
Title: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: NUFC_Chris on Friday 29 November 2013, 07:45:07 AM
I see Major reckons they wouldn't be allowed to keep sterling; something about it effectively meaning the rest of the UK would have to underwrite the Scots debt.  If it all goes pear shaped I don't suppose we would want it damaging the rest of the UK. 

From their point of view what's the point in getting independence, keeping the £ (which is controlled by the Bank of England), retaining monarchy, freedom of movement etc; why not just retain the status quo? I've a feeling it's more about the people at the top, a la Salmond and that woman who's name I forget gaining more power and status for themselves tbh.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Friday 29 November 2013, 07:52:35 AM
My only concern about the whole process is including kids in the vote, which seems fairly transparently to be an attempt to cash in on a general youthful desire for rebellion.  90% of the Scots I've spoken to are against it - but I only ever speak to guys in the Highlands, and they all acknowledge that the central belt is generally all for it, and the central belt being the most populous is where it'll be won or lost.

I agree with the argument about currency; the eurozone has ably demonstrated over the last few years what can happen when you have a common currency but no common economic policy.

that woman who's name I forget gaining more power and status for themselves tbh.

Sturgeon?  They're both named after fish and should not be trusted :anguish:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: NUFC_Chris on Friday 29 November 2013, 07:58:41 AM
That's her, the one who rants a lot.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 08:48:36 AM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?

Stay in the pound, have the British passport, military protection, no border controls, immediate access to NATO / the EU for a start.  If you want to be independant be independant, not do a half arsed job.  I'm all for it if you want it, but not a watered down excuse that is just a reason to get Salmond into the history books as the new William Wallace.

It's our pound too.

We can't keep a passport we have paid for?

We'd be getting our own military protection and applying for NATO membership....how is that unreasonable?

We are citizens of the EU and will apply through the correct legal channels for membership, just like a s*** load of other countries have in the past. The EU will 99.99999% want Scotland because of our resources. Tell me how they can do anymore?

We want independence because Westminster doesn't work for us, it's got f*** all to do with William Wallace and f*** all in the long term to do with Alex Salmond. Honestly, if you guys 'don't care' why are you so hostile towards it?

Neesy, your comment is ridiculous.

If you want independance it's all stuff you have to walk away from, it's not being forced on you?

EDIT - The UK is a member of the EU / NATO, not England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Isle of White.  If any of those constituant parts left the UK then how can they expect to be part of the old agreement?

Sweet jesus, the word is Independence, not independance. Get it right.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 08:57:15 AM
Just like including kids allows him to brainwash the youth (something I've seen every day this week, they actively approach school kids).

I don't see the evidence to say that allowing 16 year olds to vote is going to increase the vote for the Yes campaign. Brainwashing ffs. I think its fair to say that the only people that will really influence  the way in which kids vote will be parents (which will be more akin to brainwashing), and teachers (although working in schools up here there have been no reports of this happening).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 29 November 2013, 09:08:19 AM
Weirdest thing to me is the idea of keeping the Queen as "head of state"

but obviously I don't understand monarchies to begin with, so uhhh, carry on I guess.

I'd rather we did away with her.

I've been finding the debate quite interesting, although it is a little tricky to dig through all the scaremongering and bullshit to find the actual facts. Hope the whole thing doesn't descend into completely negative campaigning, which seems like the way it's headed.

Think they'll end up staying in the end, although if they do leave and make a big success of it I have the benefit of a Scottish wife so I can get straight on the bandwagon - quite like the idea of dual nationality!

The scaremongering has been on full flow for a long while now, every single day there has been a new story of 'Scotland can't do this if independent, you won't get that.' Even all the TV debates just keep going over the same ground so they are no real help.

Just have to sift through the bullshit and do your own research.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 09:14:33 AM
My only concern about the whole process is including kids in the vote, which seems fairly transparently to be an attempt to cash in on a general youthful desire for rebellion.  90% of the Scots I've spoken to are against it - but I only ever speak to guys in the Highlands, and they all acknowledge that the central belt is generally all for it, and the central belt being the most populous is where it'll be won or lost.

I agree with the argument about currency; the eurozone has ably demonstrated over the last few years what can happen when you have a common currency but no common economic policy.

that woman who's name I forget gaining more power and status for themselves tbh.

Sturgeon?  They're both named after fish and should not be trusted :anguish:

Look, the fact is, polls clearly show that the 16/17 year olds are no more likely to vote yes than no. Perhaps the motivation was to try and cajole them into a yes, but I don't see the problem with involving people in the vote who are going to be directly influenced by its outcome. For instance, those who are 16 by the referendum day will more than likely be approaching their 18th birthday by the so-called date of independence in 2016.

A look at what can happen to you by the age of 16 in Scotland - you can leave school and attempt to get a job, you can go to prison, you can get some form of benefits, you can rent a home, you can join the armed forces, you can start a family. Some of these areas will be directly affected by the vote, others indirectly. So in actual fact, the question should be why don't 16 year olds get the vote across all elections? It may well boost participation, since a lot of kids are actively involved in debates at school through PSE and Modern Studies, and decisions made by governments directly affect them.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 29 November 2013, 09:17:10 AM
I see Major reckons they wouldn't be allowed to keep sterling; something about it effectively meaning the rest of the UK would have to underwrite the Scots debt

.  If it all goes pear shaped I don't suppose we would want it damaging the rest of the UK. 

From their point of view what's the point in getting independence, keeping the £ (which is controlled by the Bank of England), retaining monarchy, freedom of movement etc; why not just retain the status quo? I've a feeling it's more about the people at the top, a la Salmond and that woman who's name I forget gaining more power and status for themselves tbh.

the queen is head of state of scotland as she is england.  Have a read of the union of tge crowns.  Its older then the union of parliments.  Oretty interesting stuff.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Friday 29 November 2013, 09:27:40 AM
Can't help thinking the North East would be beyond f***ed if this happened like.

It would f*** the north in the sense that Scotland would escape the dominance of the backward, conservative south and leave us with it in a stronger form. But in other ways it's debatable. Newcastle could benefit from investment from Edinburgh, there's talk of a linked Edinburgh-Glasgow-Newcastle.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/jul/26/scottish-independence-northeast-england
So tedious this. Shut the f*** up you nationalist t***s and take your rightful place in the bosom of the UK.

All the SNP are ugly. Salmond is a fat mess and I hate the divisions he's trying to impose. Sickening.

Not one Yes voter I know is a nationalist. There are idiots on both sides, of course. The unionists appear to be running a pathetic campaign of fear, like the tories did at the last election. Putting few reasons forward why Scots should actually want to be part of the UK, other than conservatism - preservation of the status quo and pathetic romantic ideals linked to British nationalism. If you want to categorise Yes voters as nats, so are the No campaign, just for a different nation.

Quote
Just seems weird to me... Why would you want to keep someone else's royalty?

Same thing with Australia and Canada right? Makes no f***ing sense to me at all. If you want to be independent why would you want to have a foreign King?


I guess my real question is what value or benefit do the scottish people feel like they are getting from "having the queen" ?

It's not "someone else's royalty".  The Queen is equally queen of England and Scotland (and NZ etc), she's not England's or the UK's. If you want to date it back, she's actually Scotland as the Scots King inheriting the English crown is what began the union of the crowns. As Ronaldo mentioned, the union of the crowns and 'the union' are not the same thing. In 1603 the King of Scotland inherited the English crown and became King of both, beginning the 'union of the crowns' - separate countries with the same king. In 1707 the two countries formed a union becoming a united kingdom (while Ireland remained separate but under the same crown for a bit longer). Independence ends the union of 1707, it doesn't have anything to do with the 1603 union of the crowns.


_________

Also, not sure what's being attacked about the passports. Scotland will eventually have its own passport, but of course overnight Scots won't be stripped of theirs. It'll be a gradual process, but Scots passports will be brought in.

Re border controls, there won't be just like there aren't between the UK and RO Ireland or France and Spain.

The currency union is a little more unusually, but again does not undermine independence. It's practical for both economies. Spain and Germany are most certainly separate countries and share a currency.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 29 November 2013, 09:35:33 AM
Can't help thinking the North East would be beyond f***ed if this happened like.

It would f*** the north in the sense that Scotland would escape the dominance of the backward, conservative south and leave us with it in a stronger form. But in other ways it's debatable. Newcastle could benefit from invest from Edinburgh, there's talk of a linked Edinburgh-Glasgow-Newcastle.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/jul/26/scottish-independence-northeast-england
So tedious this. Shut the f*** up you nationalist t***s and take your rightful place in the bosom of the UK.

All the SNP are ugly. Salmond is a fat mess and I hate the divisions he's trying to impose. Sickening.

Not one Yes voter I know is a nationalist. There are idiots on both sides, of course. The unionists appear to be running a pathetic campaign of fear, like the tories did at the last election. Putting few reasons forward why Scots should actually want to be part of the UK, other than conservatism - preservation of the status quo and pathetic romantic ideals linked to British nationalism. If you want to categorise Yes voters as nats, so are the No campaign, just for a different nation.

:thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 09:44:33 AM
Can't help thinking the North East would be beyond f***ed if this happened like.

It would f*** the north in the sense that Scotland would escape the dominance of the backward, conservative south and leave us with it in a stronger form. But in other ways it's debatable. Newcastle could benefit from invest from Edinburgh, there's talk of a linked Edinburgh-Glasgow-Newcastle.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/jul/26/scottish-independence-northeast-england
So tedious this. Shut the f*** up you nationalist t***s and take your rightful place in the bosom of the UK.

All the SNP are ugly. Salmond is a fat mess and I hate the divisions he's trying to impose. Sickening.

Not one Yes voter I know is a nationalist. There are idiots on both sides, of course. The unionists appear to be running a pathetic campaign of fear, like the tories did at the last election. Putting few reasons forward why Scots should actually want to be part of the UK, other than conservatism - preservation of the status quo and pathetic romantic ideals linked to British nationalism. If you want to categorise Yes voters as nats, so are the No campaign, just for a different nation.

Well said. I'm from the North-East, live in Glasgow, and have voted labour and more than likely will continue to vote for the left in the 'new' parliament. Not being old enough to vote in Northeast regional assembly, I have no idea why anyone, given the chance would want to stick with the cultural, political, financial hegemony of the southeast of England. There is an argument to say that it might f*** the North East, but perhaps having a potentially successful nation a few miles to the north, with freedom of movement and a shared currency, might encourage people to seek jobs closer to home rather than resettle in the southeast. What if the Northeast received a higher share of public funds as a result? No-one really knows what will happen to the North East, but we cannot blame the Scots for wanting to rid themselves of the dominance of the South.

Furthermore, when approaching the next general election, what can you see? There is little discernible difference between all three major political parties, the country veers to the right, and we are having a referendum on EU membership. The main argument really for Independence is an emotional one, and the SNP are right in saying that the Scottish Electorate have often had to put up with governments it did not vote in, and have little interest in Scottish affairs. Why wouldn't you want to vote for a change, when the alternative is nothing?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 09:45:30 AM
FWIW I'm not a nationalist either
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 29 November 2013, 10:03:57 AM
Sensible posts Ali and Grant.  :thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Incognito on Friday 29 November 2013, 10:06:48 AM
We already have millions of sponging immigrants in England. Scotland become independent and we annex a few miilion more overnight. *ToryFaragespeak :)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Lotus on Friday 29 November 2013, 10:19:43 AM
I'm not Scottish nor have any family that are.
If i belonged to a union of nations due to the fact that the main or leading nation had colonised, oppressed, imposed language, culture, stolen resources, intimidated, persecuted, etc.
I want out. At the first opportunity. Be the maker of my own destiny. Might be a struggle but what in life isn't?
Imagine if the Germans had won the war? The might have made the UK a more efficient economy, a better workforce, better standard of living, better schools, better nurserys, better at football. Not by much but just a little better at everything (except music, fashion and jokes..). I wonder how many English would be content and how many would want independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 10:20:30 AM
Thanks, the way I see it, is that the vote isn't as easy as Nationalism vs Unionism, but should be a debate on what sort of country we would like Scotland to become in the future. It goes wider than Independence for sure. A few of the things in the white paper are hard to get my head around, but I like the idea of self-determination as a whole, I am leaning Yes at the moment, but am worried about pensions/currency etc. However, the alternative is even harder for me to stomach, (sticking with Westminster). I do think it is important for Better Together to set out their own plan for the future, but I am fair sure this wont happen. As a bunch of disparate individuals representing a cross section of political parties that can barely agree on anything, (other than Union = good), I wont hold my breath waiting for consensus on what they plan to do to put Scotland on track for success.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Friday 29 November 2013, 10:45:23 AM
Weirdest thing to me is the idea of keeping the Queen as "head of state"

but obviously I don't understand monarchies to begin with, so uhhh, carry on I guess.

Stuff like this is just reaching out to Unionist voters. If they get independence things like that will slowly be done away with. It's the same with sterling, once the Euro sorts itself out they'll be going to that.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Incognito on Friday 29 November 2013, 11:02:06 AM
Weirdest thing to me is the idea of keeping the Queen as "head of state"

but obviously I don't understand monarchies to begin with, so uhhh, carry on I guess.

Stuff like this is just reaching out to Unionist voters. If they get independence things like that will slowly be do away with. It's the same with sterling, once the Euro sorts itself out they'll be going to that.

Except I don't think they'll vote for independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Spider Jerusalem on Friday 29 November 2013, 11:25:15 AM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?

Stay in the pound, have the British passport, military protection, no border controls, immediate access to NATO / the EU for a start.  If you want to be independant be independant, not do a half arsed job.  I'm all for it if you want it, but not a watered down excuse that is just a reason to get Salmond into the history books as the new William Wallace.

It's our pound too.

We can't keep a passport we have paid for?

We'd be getting our own military protection and applying for NATO membership....how is that unreasonable?

We are citizens of the EU and will apply through the correct legal channels for membership, just like a s*** load of other countries have in the past. The EU will 99.99999% want Scotland because of our resources. Tell me how they can do anymore?

We want independence because Westminster doesn't work for us, it's got f*** all to do with William Wallace and f*** all in the long term to do with Alex Salmond. Honestly, if you guys 'don't care' why are you so hostile towards it?

Neesy, your comment is ridiculous.

If you want independance it's all stuff you have to walk away from, it's not being forced on you?

EDIT - The UK is a member of the EU / NATO, not England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Isle of White.  If any of those constituant parts left the UK then how can they expect to be part of the old agreement?

Sweet jesus, the word is Independence, not independance. Get it right.

It's Jesus you f***ing denk, get it right!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Friday 29 November 2013, 11:38:38 AM
Just seems weird to me... Why would you want to keep someone else's royalty?

Same thing with Australia and Canada right? Makes no f***ing sense to me at all. If you want to be independent why would you want to have a foreign King?


I guess my real question is what value or benefit do the scottish people feel like they are getting from "having the queen" ?

Snapple fact: Canada and Australia (and all of the Commonwealth realms) each have their own, separate heads of state. So even though Elizabeth herself fulfills the same role in each country, the "monarchy of Canada", for instance, is a distinct legal entity.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Friday 29 November 2013, 12:12:26 PM
So in actual fact, the question should be why don't 16 year olds get the vote across all elections? It may well boost participation, since a lot of kids are actively involved in debates at school through PSE and Modern Studies, and decisions made by governments directly affect them.

Because people don't want 16 year olds voting on issues that most of them manifestly don't understand, even though most 16 year olds who are interested in voting would claim to be clued up.  Additionally, of course, virtually everybody in the country is affected by government decisions but I don't want a five year old to be given the vote just because a government makes a decision on when he should be starting school.  There's certainly a debate to be had about the average age when a person becomes aware enough of the realities of adulthood to make their vote a meaningful and informed one.. but I don't think it's 16 in most cases :)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 02:40:25 PM
So in actual fact, the question should be why don't 16 year olds get the vote across all elections? It may well boost participation, since a lot of kids are actively involved in debates at school through PSE and Modern Studies, and decisions made by governments directly affect them.

Because people don't want 16 year olds voting on issues that most of them manifestly don't understand, even though most 16 year olds who are interested in voting would claim to be clued up.  Additionally, of course, virtually everybody in the country is affected by government decisions but I don't want a five year old to be given the vote just because a government makes a decision on when he should be starting school.  There's certainly a debate to be had about the average age when a person becomes aware enough of the realities of adulthood to make their vote a meaningful and informed one.. but I don't think it's 16 in most cases :)

Well I don't see the argument there to be honest. Legally we consider 16 year olds to be adults in Scotland, in terms of age of majority, and capacity, if they don't understand the responsibility of voting it is up to educators, politicians to do this. Furthermore, part of the reason it is happening is as a result of the Scottish Youth Parliament's lobbying. I think this highlights that 16 year olds are capable of engaging responsibly. Plenty of people over the age of 20/30 probably aren't clued up before they vote as well and that doesn't seem to be a problem. Also I would contend that until a child is no longer a child, the parent votes, and can opt to vote with their family's best interest at heart, therefore, the argument about school and age you mentioned above becomes a moot point does it not?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 02:42:25 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?

Stay in the pound, have the British passport, military protection, no border controls, immediate access to NATO / the EU for a start.  If you want to be independant be independant, not do a half arsed job.  I'm all for it if you want it, but not a watered down excuse that is just a reason to get Salmond into the history books as the new William Wallace.

It's our pound too.

We can't keep a passport we have paid for?

We'd be getting our own military protection and applying for NATO membership....how is that unreasonable?

We are citizens of the EU and will apply through the correct legal channels for membership, just like a s*** load of other countries have in the past. The EU will 99.99999% want Scotland because of our resources. Tell me how they can do anymore?

We want independence because Westminster doesn't work for us, it's got f*** all to do with William Wallace and f*** all in the long term to do with Alex Salmond. Honestly, if you guys 'don't care' why are you so hostile towards it?

Neesy, your comment is ridiculous.

If you want independance it's all stuff you have to walk away from, it's not being forced on you?

EDIT - The UK is a member of the EU / NATO, not England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Isle of White.  If any of those constituant parts left the UK then how can they expect to be part of the old agreement?

Sweet jesus, the word is Independence, not independance. Get it right.

It's Jesus you f***ing denk, get it right!

So shoot me, I'm not the one trying to argue a case against a word I can't even spell, you f***ing div
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:02:39 PM
Well I don't see the argument there to be honest. Legally we consider 16 year olds to be adults in Scotland, in terms of age of majority, and capacity, if they don't understand the responsibility of voting it is up to educators, politicians to do this. Furthermore, part of the reason it is happening is as a result of the Scottish Youth Parliament's lobbying. I think this highlights that 16 year olds are capable of engaging responsibly. Plenty of people over the age of 20/30 probably aren't clued up before they vote as well and that doesn't seem to be a problem. Also I would contend that until a child is no longer a child, the parent votes, and can opt to vote with their family's best interest at heart, therefore, the argument about school and age you mentioned above becomes a moot point does it not?

Fair enough: I disagree.  I'm not saying that 16 year olds aren't capable of organising, lobbying and understanding.. but I don't think many 16 year olds have nearly enough life experience to make any sort of informed choice on what are major economic decisions, and I believe they're only being allowed to vote because the yes camp think that they're more likely to exhibit enough national pride to give their campaign a bit of a boost.  This is merely my opinion.

For what it's worth I agree with a lot of what you say about unfulfilled responsibilities of educators and legislators, and of course I have to acknowledge that I know plenty of 40 year olds whose vote I would also question the legitimacy of - however, on the grounds that it's my belief (and that's all it is) that 16 is generally too young to start a family, and definitely too young to join the army, I also don't think they should be voting.  I think considering a 16 year old to be an adult in any sense other than biological (and even then it's not a given) is ridiculous.

Just my £0.02; I don't want to get drawn into an argument on age of responsibility which isn't what the thread is for :)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:14:06 PM

Well I don't see the argument there to be honest. Legally we consider 16 year olds to be adults in Scotland, in terms of age of majority, and capacity, if they don't understand the responsibility of voting it is up to educators, politicians to do this. Furthermore, part of the reason it is happening is as a result of the Scottish Youth Parliament's lobbying. I think this highlights that 16 year olds are capable of engaging responsibly. Plenty of people over the age of 20/30 probably aren't clued up before they vote as well and that doesn't seem to be a problem. Also I would contend that until a child is no longer a child, the parent votes, and can opt to vote with their family's best interest at heart, therefore, the argument about school and age you mentioned above becomes a moot point does it not?

Fair enough: I disagree.  I'm not saying that 16 year olds aren't capable of organising, lobbying and understanding.. but I don't think many 16 year olds have nearly enough life experience to make any sort of informed choice on what are major economic decisions, and I believe they're only being allowed to vote because the yes camp think that they're more likely to exhibit enough national pride to give their campaign a bit of a boost.  This is merely my opinion.

For what it's worth I agree with a lot of what you say about unfulfilled responsibilities of educators and legislators, and of course I have to acknowledge that I know plenty of 40 year olds whose vote I would also question the legitimacy of - however, on the grounds that it's my belief (and that's all it is) that 16 is too young to start a family, and definitely too young to join the army, I also don't think they should be voting.  I think considering a 16 year old to be an adult in any sense other than biological (and even then it's not a given) is ridiculous.

Just my £0.02; I don't want to get drawn into an argument on age of responsibility which isn't what the thread is for :)


Fair enough, FWIW, I think 16 is too young to be legally allowed to join the army as well. I do also think that 16 might be a little young to be considered an adult, (especially for kids that have been in care of the state), however the law being as it is up here, I don't see why they shouldn't vote. On the subject of whether Yes were more for this change because they thought it might sway the vote, I'd agree that they probably fought for it to gain an upper hand, but it works both ways, members of better together opposed it vehemently, this could just as easily have been because it suited their political aims.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:16:26 PM
What is your view on independence btw?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:21:09 PM
My view on independence is that it's complicated: the biggest part of me thinks that you guys should have whatever you want; a smaller part of me thinks that everybody in the union should be asked what they think; the smallest (and purely devil's advocate) part of me wonders what the Scots would have thought if the UK had just booted you guys out saying that you weren't economically viable for the rest of the UK :)  The one thing I always roll my eyes at is the constant mantra that Westminster doesn't work for you.  It doesn't work for any f***er north of Birmingham :)

Realistically, I don't really mind what happens as long as I can keep going to Scotland :)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Incognito on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:28:44 PM
My view on independence is that it's complicated: the biggest part of me thinks that you guys should have whatever you want; a smaller part of me thinks that everybody in the union should be asked what they think; the smallest (and purely devil's advocate) part of me wonders what the Scots would have thought if the UK had just booted you guys out saying that you weren't economically viable for the rest of the UK :)  The one thing I always roll my eyes at is the constant mantra that Westminster doesn't work for you.  It doesn't work for any f***er north of Birmingham :)

Realistically, I don't really mind what happens as long as I can keep going to Scotland :)

More Watford than Brum tbh.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Incognito on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:29:25 PM
Isn't 16 considered middle aged up there anyhoo?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:29:36 PM

Was going to go with Watford but I thought that was getting clichéd now :)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:41:12 PM
My view on independence is that it's complicated: the biggest part of me thinks that you guys should have whatever you want; a smaller part of me thinks that everybody in the union should be asked what they think; the smallest (and purely devil's advocate) part of me wonders what the Scots would have thought if the UK had just booted you guys out saying that you weren't economically viable for the rest of the UK :)  The one thing I always roll my eyes at is the constant mantra that Westminster doesn't work for you.  It doesn't work for any f***er north of Birmingham :)

Realistically, I don't really mind what happens as long as I can keep going to Scotland :)

Well I'd agree with that last bit regarding Brum. Growing up in Newcastle - you can't escape the fact that everywhere you look across the region, successive governments have failed this part of the country. Moving up to Scotland, it isn't that far different, aside from the fact that at least the Scots have the opportunity to do something about it. My real reason for wanting independence is based on Scotland having self determination, and divorcing itself from Westminster. As for the rest of the UK having a say, that is an interesting point, and again, I think could have been considered - it does affect us all. Having said that the SNP were voted in with the referendum as part of their manifesto. The Scottish Electorate voted for it, therefore they should decide no? But I do see the point, it could have potentially damaging effects on monetary policy, pensions, economy, defence South of the Border. I must say though I have rarely encountered anyone back home in Newcastle who are prepared to engage with the debate beyond the usual 'subsify junkies, f*** off then' claptrap. I recently listened to a programme on BBC Scotland that explored the English point of view (I think in Sussex somewhere), most people didn't seem to give a flying f*** what Scotland did. I do realise that this was a small sample however.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 03:44:42 PM
Isn't 16 considered middle aged up there anyhoo?

Almost a third of your life if you life in the east end of Glasgow, if you believe the Guardian's report on the World Health Organisation stats.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Spider Jerusalem on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:12:45 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?

Stay in the pound, have the British passport, military protection, no border controls, immediate access to NATO / the EU for a start.  If you want to be independant be independant, not do a half arsed job.  I'm all for it if you want it, but not a watered down excuse that is just a reason to get Salmond into the history books as the new William Wallace.

It's our pound too.

We can't keep a passport we have paid for?

We'd be getting our own military protection and applying for NATO membership....how is that unreasonable?

We are citizens of the EU and will apply through the correct legal channels for membership, just like a s*** load of other countries have in the past. The EU will 99.99999% want Scotland because of our resources. Tell me how they can do anymore?

We want independence because Westminster doesn't work for us, it's got f*** all to do with William Wallace and f*** all in the long term to do with Alex Salmond. Honestly, if you guys 'don't care' why are you so hostile towards it?

Neesy, your comment is ridiculous.

If you want independance it's all stuff you have to walk away from, it's not being forced on you?

EDIT - The UK is a member of the EU / NATO, not England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Isle of White.  If any of those constituant parts left the UK then how can they expect to be part of the old agreement?

Sweet jesus, the word is Independence, not independance. Get it right.

It's Jesus you f***ing denk, get it right!

So shoot me, I'm not the one trying to argue a case against a word I can't even spell, you f***ing div

So I couldn't spell a f***ing word when I was half p*ssed at 11:30 last night and you were incapable of punching holes in the paper thin arguement I made then, apart from you can't spell?  What sort of f***ing cretin are you?  Bell end.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:19:29 PM
 :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Varadi on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:20:36 PM
:lol:

Does seem like an escalating series of overreactions
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Disco on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:21:45 PM
Can't take these drunken Scots anywhere like.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:22:34 PM
He's a geordie. :angel:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:26:41 PM
 :lol: :idiot2:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:39:46 PM
If they vote yes and it all goes to s***, would they just come back into the UK?

With all of the conditions they want to 'leave' it will be just like they've had a tax holiday tbh.

What conditions do you think are unreasonable?

Stay in the pound, have the British passport, military protection, no border controls, immediate access to NATO / the EU for a start.  If you want to be independant be independant, not do a half arsed job.  I'm all for it if you want it, but not a watered down excuse that is just a reason to get Salmond into the history books as the new William Wallace.

It's our pound too.

We can't keep a passport we have paid for?

We'd be getting our own military protection and applying for NATO membership....how is that unreasonable?

We are citizens of the EU and will apply through the correct legal channels for membership, just like a s*** load of other countries have in the past. The EU will 99.99999% want Scotland because of our resources. Tell me how they can do anymore?

We want independence because Westminster doesn't work for us, it's got f*** all to do with William Wallace and f*** all in the long term to do with Alex Salmond. Honestly, if you guys 'don't care' why are you so hostile towards it?

Neesy, your comment is ridiculous.

If you want independance it's all stuff you have to walk away from, it's not being forced on you?

EDIT - The UK is a member of the EU / NATO, not England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Isle of White.  If any of those constituant parts left the UK then how can they expect to be part of the old agreement?

Sweet jesus, the word is Independence, not independance. Get it right.

It's Jesus you f***ing denk, get it right!

So shoot me, I'm not the one trying to argue a case against a word I can't even spell, you f***ing div

So I couldn't spell a f***ing word when I was half p*ssed at 11:30 last night and you were incapable of punching holes in the paper thin arguement I made then, apart from you can't spell?  What sort of f***ing cretin are you?  Bell end.

Chill Winston. I wasn't the one who started the abuse. I didn't address your points because I felt others were/had done this already. As for the spelling, if it makes me look like a anal b****** then fine, but its not like it isn't plastered all over this thread, and think your argument is reduced in credibility as a result. Some people (myself included) might think you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Stay off the roids.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:56:17 PM
Back to the debate - an interesting comment on independence in the guardian - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/29/independent-scotland-britons-salmond-moderate-social-democracy?CMP=twt_gu
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Dave on Friday 29 November 2013, 04:57:59 PM
You started it like. :lol:

Anyway, sort it out lads. This isn't the Pardew thread.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 05:05:34 PM
 :lol: Alright, you f***ing denk
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: icemanblue on Friday 29 November 2013, 05:22:57 PM
Bellend is a very, very bad word.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Decky on Friday 29 November 2013, 05:31:38 PM
Denk? :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 05:34:54 PM
I had to look it up too - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=denk
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: NUFC_Chris on Friday 29 November 2013, 05:39:48 PM
If I was Scottish and living in say, Berwick, (England) I'd be p*ssed I couldn't vote.
What's going to happen to the millions of Scots living in England btw, do they stay British? They're entitled to dual nationality?
I'm sure if they could vote the result would be a no.
What about the millions with Scottish grandparents (like me), can we have citizenship? That's enough for most countries to give you a passport.
I think it's going to cost them f***ing billions in paper work tbh before it even gets off the ground!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 05:45:50 PM
If I was Scottish and living in say, Berwick, (England) I'd be p*ssed I couldn't vote.
What's going to happen to the millions of Scots living in England btw, do they stay British? They're entitled to dual nationality?
I'm sure if they could vote the result would be a no.
What about the millions with Scottish grandparents (like me), can we have citizenship? That's enough for most countries to give you a passport.
I think it's going to cost them f***ing billions in paper work tbh before it even gets off the ground!

I think the proposals say that in time (i.e. on the date of proposed independence) the guidelines will be that anyone resident in Scotland on that date will qualify for citizenship, those born to a scottish parent but living outside of scotland will qualify, and those with scottish grandparents can apply. I think. At the moment, you qualify as a resident of Scotland (for things like student loans etc.) if you have been living here independently for 3 years.

It will cost definitely, in terms of administering the change and printing the actual documents. In terms of setting up the systems (I.T., passport offices etc) there wont be much of a change I don't think
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: NUFC_Chris on Friday 29 November 2013, 05:51:30 PM
It just seems as though the whole basis of the split is a political one.  Whether the English haters (and there are many let's be honest) like it or not, we are essentially the same flesh and blood and share heritage.  English/Welsh/Scots & Irish have been inter-marrying for thousands of years. I was even reading a study tracing Celtic 'DNA' and they discovered the Irish have no more Celtic blood in them than the average bloke in Kent. Course that went down like a lead balloon in Eire!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: NUFC_Chris on Friday 29 November 2013, 05:55:22 PM
Perhaps we should all revert to our pre-roman tribal routes. Who's for Northumbrian independence. The capital would be Bamburgh, though we would need Edinburgh back as that was ours originally btw. ;)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 29 November 2013, 05:57:42 PM
That's the thing Chris, it is totally about politics. The anti-english thing is just bollocks really. No-one cares about that apart from the usual few idiots.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 29 November 2013, 06:02:42 PM
It just seems as though the whole basis of the split is a political one.  Whether the English haters (and there are many let's be honest) like it or not, we are essentially the same flesh and blood and share heritage.  English/Welsh/Scots & Irish have been inter-marrying for thousands of years. I was even reading a study tracing Celtic 'DNA' and they discovered the Irish have no more Celtic blood in them than the average bloke in Kent. Course that went down like a lead balloon in Eire!

Absolutely, it is a political one.  This is why I still sway either way, as it's only politically I agree with the split.  I hate having to vote yes, but common sense dictates it (politically).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 29 November 2013, 06:11:42 PM
It just seems as though the whole basis of the split is a political one.  Whether the English haters (and there are many let's be honest) like it or not, we are essentially the same flesh and blood and share heritage.  English/Welsh/Scots & Irish have been inter-marrying for thousands of years. I was even reading a study tracing Celtic 'DNA' and they discovered the Irish have no more Celtic blood in them than the average bloke in Kent. Course that went down like a lead balloon in Eire!

I agree, I have always thought that if the independence referendum was brought forward by another party at Holyrood, it would be subject to a more sensible debate. Since it is fronted by the SNP, people find it easy to throw the whole tartan army/wallace/teuchter thing at it. I'm English, likely to marry a scottish woman, and couldn't really tell you whether I feel more English, British, or Scottish right now. The idea of nationalism is silly to me, so for me it comes totally down to politics, representation, the future of this part of the UK, and the disposal of the Westminster elite.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: NUFC_Chris on Friday 29 November 2013, 06:12:21 PM
It won't make much difference in the long run. I think it would be independence in name but not a great deal else.

 Salmond can smirk triumphantly and we'd all carry on with our lives.  I don't think his economic policies will turn Scotland into a Norway, and as with anything actually talking about running a government and running one are two different things...

Personally I wouldn't trust him as far as I could chuck him.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 29 November 2013, 06:13:32 PM
I doubt I'd even vote SNP.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 29 November 2013, 06:24:07 PM
I doubt I'd even vote SNP.

Doubt most would, they likely split eventually as well.  Independence is all that keeps them together.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Friday 29 November 2013, 07:16:59 PM
I had to look it up too - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=denk


"A racist term for small ginger danish people, denks are usually gay and have pink air maxes."

That applies to an extremely small demographic. So small that I have difficulty envisioning how someone could develop a deep-seated hatred of them. :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Saturday 30 November 2013, 08:26:12 AM
I doubt I'd even vote SNP.

That's the thing, a vote for independence is not a vote for independence. If you see it that way, then a vote for union is a vote for Cameron.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Dave on Saturday 30 November 2013, 10:48:14 AM
What's in the white paper about the BBC? Anything?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Saturday 30 November 2013, 10:50:39 AM
What's in the white paper about the BBC? Anything?

They want to set up the SBS (Scottish Broadcasting Service) which will be licensed-payer funded and will initially work with the BBC through some kind of reciprocal agreement.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Dave on Saturday 30 November 2013, 10:57:06 AM
:thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Sunday 1 December 2013, 10:40:33 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/01/scotland-vote-yes-scottish-independence

"Boris Shitbin Johnson"  :lol: Brilliant.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: ponsaelius on Monday 2 December 2013, 06:31:23 PM
They owe London and the rest of us nowt, if they want to go alone I'm all for it. Great nation and great people.

Just worried where it would leave the North East.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Cajun on Monday 2 December 2013, 06:32:51 PM
They owe London and the rest of us nowt, if they want to go alone I'm all for it. Great nation and great people.

Just worried where it would leave the North East.

Doubt they'll move it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Monday 2 December 2013, 06:48:36 PM
Fortunately 'they' don't want to go it alone, it would appear.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Doctor Zaius on Thursday 5 December 2013, 02:42:05 PM
I'm not even sure what the point of Scottish independence is in this case. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it if it leads to a further decentralised UK government or eventually a federal UK state, but to be truly independent they'd need to control their own economy, which they cant do entirely until they've got their own currency in this case. I might well be missing the point here, but from what ive read an independent Scotland would be more like a economically tied British colony rather than an independent sovereign state.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Thursday 5 December 2013, 04:27:00 PM
I'm not even sure what the point of Scottish independence is in this case. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it if it leads to a further decentralised UK government or eventually a federal UK state, but to be truly independent they'd need to control their own economy, which they cant do entirely until they've got their own currency in this case. I might well be missing the point here, but from what ive read an independent Scotland would be more like a economically tied British colony rather than an independent sovereign state.

They'd have a hell of a lot more control over their own affairs than they do now. And the currency sharing would likely not be forever, it's thought necessary at least at first for an economy that's, of course, so strongly linked with England's.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 5 December 2013, 04:29:43 PM
It's all based on fanciful idelogy, man. Not on achieveable social and economic progress.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Inferior Acuña on Thursday 5 December 2013, 06:49:03 PM
It's all based on fanciful idelogy, man. Not on achieveable social and economic progress.

It's not fanciful ideology. It basically comes down to whether you want Scotland to control the affairs of Scotland. The ideology will change with elections, different parties would control Scotland with different ideologies. Regardless of that, I think Scottish people should choose Scotland's government.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 5 December 2013, 07:41:26 PM
I'm not even sure what the point of Scottish independence is in this case. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it if it leads to a further decentralised UK government or eventually a federal UK state, but to be truly independent they'd need to control their own economy, which they cant do entirely until they've got their own currency in this case. I might well be missing the point here, but from what ive read an independent Scotland would be more like a economically tied British colony rather than an independent sovereign state.

They'd have a hell of a lot more control over their own affairs than they do now. And the currency sharing would likely not be forever, it's thought necessary at least at first for an economy that's, of course, so strongly linked with England's.

Exactly, one step at a time. Is it not the case that Sterling is actually generally strong, it's what is done with it in the UK that is the problem?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 6 December 2013, 10:46:57 AM
I appreciate that the SNP are trying to sell this to the Scottish people and they aren't generally going to list all possible bad points but f***ing hell, they made it sound like a perfect transition, Scotland gets everything it wants and there will be no pitfalls.

I dont think they are being truely honest with the Scottish people.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: jdckelly on Friday 6 December 2013, 12:53:29 PM
I'm not even sure what the point of Scottish independence is in this case. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it if it leads to a further decentralised UK government or eventually a federal UK state, but to be truly independent they'd need to control their own economy, which they cant do entirely until they've got their own currency in this case. I might well be missing the point here, but from what ive read an independent Scotland would be more like a economically tied British colony rather than an independent sovereign state.
thing is even if they do get independence and want to join the eu they would probably have to take on the euro anyway barring some kind of miracle exception which I really can't see the EU giving to them.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 6 December 2013, 01:02:21 PM
I'm not even sure what the point of Scottish independence is in this case. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it if it leads to a further decentralised UK government or eventually a federal UK state, but to be truly independent they'd need to control their own economy, which they cant do entirely until they've got their own currency in this case. I might well be missing the point here, but from what ive read an independent Scotland would be more like a economically tied British colony rather than an independent sovereign state.
thing is even if they do get independence and want to join the eu they would probably have to take on the euro anyway barring some kind of miracle exception which I really can't see the EU giving to them.

Like the UK, Denmark and Sweden?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Kimbo on Friday 6 December 2013, 03:10:49 PM
Times have changed since the 70s, nowadays the EU doesn't want countries that won't accept the euro. Not that it matters because apparently Spain would veto Scotland joining anyway.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Rob W on Friday 6 December 2013, 03:44:29 PM
I hope someone has marked out spaces for the refugee camps around  Wooler..............
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Friday 6 December 2013, 05:08:56 PM
I hope someone has marked out spaces for the refugee camps around  Wooler..............

For people migrating from England to Scotland or vice versa?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: jdckelly on Friday 6 December 2013, 06:43:17 PM
I'm not even sure what the point of Scottish independence is in this case. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it if it leads to a further decentralised UK government or eventually a federal UK state, but to be truly independent they'd need to control their own economy, which they cant do entirely until they've got their own currency in this case. I might well be missing the point here, but from what ive read an independent Scotland would be more like a economically tied British colony rather than an independent sovereign state.
thing is even if they do get independence and want to join the eu they would probably have to take on the euro anyway barring some kind of miracle exception which I really can't see the EU giving to them.

Like the UK, Denmark and Sweden?
times change and you can bet one of the conditions of joining will be adopting the euro.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: jdckelly on Friday 6 December 2013, 06:44:37 PM
Times have changed since the 70s, nowadays the EU doesn't want countries that won't accept the euro. Not that it matters because apparently Spain would veto Scotland joining anyway.
to be specific they'll veto Scotland joining right away, they won't stop an application like any other new country ie from scratch which could take a long time.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 6 December 2013, 06:46:42 PM
I appreciate that the SNP are trying to sell this to the Scottish people and they aren't generally going to list all possible bad points but f***ing hell, they made it sound like a perfect transition, Scotland gets everything it wants and there will be no pitfalls.

I dont think they are being truely honest with the Scottish people.
 

The absolute truth. I've made this argument with fellow Yes Scots. There's no point selling this as an improved situation, it's about being the masters of our own fate. Thing is, we'll be no worse off than after another ten years of austerity. The No campaign offers nothing new, and things are broken as it is, so why would you stay?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: NUFC_Chris on Saturday 7 December 2013, 12:14:23 AM
Maybe we can form a union with Poland, seeing as they all live here.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: triggs on Saturday 7 December 2013, 12:35:47 AM
Maybe we can form a union with Poland, seeing as they all live here.
Jesus Christ
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Saturday 7 December 2013, 12:36:08 AM
:lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Village Idiot on Thursday 12 December 2013, 02:12:51 PM
Our regional government has called up an independence vote for Nov 2014.

The Spanish government won't authorise it, so this is going to be a fun ride.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: WarrenBartonCentrePartin on Thursday 12 December 2013, 02:23:44 PM
FM Alex Salmond ‏@AlexSalmond 24m
Great to catch up with Susie Saunders – an inspirational lady battling cancer so she can vote #Yes next year (AA) pic.twitter.com/yV2A5h79U0


Aye, am sure the only reason she's fighting the big C is to help boost your ego further...
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Thursday 12 December 2013, 03:56:13 PM
FM Alex Salmond ‏@AlexSalmond 24m
Great to catch up with Susie Saunders – an inspirational lady battling cancer so she can vote #Yes next year (AA) pic.twitter.com/yV2A5h79U0


:lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Dave on Thursday 12 December 2013, 11:03:55 PM
f***ing hell.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 12 December 2013, 11:21:15 PM
That was a story long before Salmond tweeted it. She created it, not him.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 12 December 2013, 11:23:35 PM
Our regional government has called up an independence vote for Nov 2014.

The Spanish government won't authorise it, so this is going to be a fun ride.



How do you feel about it VI? I go to Barcelona often as my mate lives there and most of the Catalans I know are very strongly in favour, would like to hear your views. Obviously as I have discovered with our own case, it is very complicated and you can discuss it forever but would like to know if you are basically in favour or against.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Village Idiot on Friday 13 December 2013, 12:07:03 AM
I feel like I'm choosing between two c***s I'd rather live 10000 km away from, to put it succintly. Even though I consider myself a Catalan and Spain has many faults as a country, I have little hope of an independent Catalonia being particularly better.

That's the short version of it. Maybe I'll ellaborate more tomorrow, it's late now.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Friday 13 December 2013, 01:09:26 AM
I'd also be interested to read you views on it VI :thup:
I've always been lead to believe that it would be pretty much overwhelmingly a YES vote (if it ever happened)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Village Idiot on Friday 13 December 2013, 08:40:02 AM
Not at all, polls are a 50/50 split, and I expect some separatists to chicken out when pick comes to shove.

Ok, to ellaborate a bit more. I don't trust the Spanish government *at all* to respect our self-rule and to distribute infrastructure and resources in good faith - and there are several examples of it in the past few years, heck the EU came recently and forced Spain to amend its train infrastructure plans that marginalized the Med in favor or Madrid - but nonetheless I reckon an independent Catalonia would be an economic disaster with the automatic exit of the EU, nonwithstanding the fact that our regional leaders are as equally inept and corrupt as the Madrid ones; they just happen to speak Catalan. Ultimately, the objective of a nation is to procure the welfare of its citizens, not the opposite. If an independent Catalonia is not useful to the Catalans, there's no point in it.

So far the atmosphere is pretty vicious, and there's hardly an indication that one of the sides will back down. The demos in Catalonia in favor of independence have been pretty gigantic, but no Spanish politician will ever want to go down in history by being the one that even dare question the fact that Spain might not be the indissoluble monolithic nation they imagine in their wet dreams.

To be honest I'm ok with the current institutional arrangement - I consider myself to be a Catalan but I don't need a f***ing passport to validate my feelings - if it was done in good faith without the central government trying to undermine our autonomy just because they don't fancy how we go about it, and our regional leaders reacting like histerical old wives every time there's a disagreement.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 13 December 2013, 12:45:52 PM
All sounds reasonable. Sounds like it will inevitably turn very nasty before too long if the Spanish refuse to comply.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Rob W on Friday 13 December 2013, 03:28:53 PM
"polls are a 50/50 split"

they aren't - its 32% out, 45% in and the balance can't read - most pollsters are forecasting a 60-40 NO vote
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Village Idiot on Friday 13 December 2013, 04:31:22 PM
I was talking about Catalonia.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Rob W on Saturday 14 December 2013, 08:24:52 AM
this is the Sctots thread - even I can tell the difference between Barcelona & Glasgow..........................
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Village Idiot on Saturday 14 December 2013, 10:03:02 AM
this is the Sctots thread - even I can tell the difference between Barcelona & Glasgow..........................

Well, since the Catalan pro-vote movement has been spurred by the Scottish referendum, thought it germane to report on it here.

As people quip around here, the Scottish vote might result in the independence of Catalonia.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: triggs on Saturday 14 December 2013, 10:25:12 AM
this is the Sctots thread - even I can tell the difference between Barcelona & Glasgow..........................

Well, since the Catalan pro-vote movement has been spurred by the Scottish referendum, thought it germane to report on it here.

As people quip around here, the Scottish vote might result in the independence of Catalonia.
Any idea what would happen with all the Catalan football teams and of course Spanish national team if they were to get independence
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Village Idiot on Saturday 14 December 2013, 10:44:57 AM
No. Lots of scenarios are being thrown around so nobody can predict what would happen regarding nationality of the current Catalans in the Spanish NT and where would they end up.

Suppose Barça would play in the Catalan league and fade into Ajax-like irrellevancy.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Saturday 14 December 2013, 11:05:26 AM
Is Quebec still look for independence from the rest of Canada, or was that blown the last time they had a vote on it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Saturday 14 December 2013, 12:12:02 PM
this is the Sctots thread - even I can tell the difference between Barcelona & Glasgow..........................

Well, since the Catalan pro-vote movement has been spurred by the Scottish referendum, thought it germane to report on it here.

As people quip around here, the Scottish vote might result in the independence of Catalonia.

 :thup: Of course it is relevant.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 13 February 2014, 09:53:26 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26179442
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Thursday 13 February 2014, 09:59:27 PM
Scotland if you've got to go away
Don't think I can take the pain
Won't you stay another day
Oh, don't leave me alone like this
Don't you say it's the final kiss
Oh, won't you stay another day

Don't you know we've come too far now
Just to go and try to throw it all away
Thought I heard you say you love me
That your love was gonna be here to stay
I've only just begun to know you
All I can say is won't you stay just one more day

Scotland if you've got to go away
Don't think I can take the pain
Won't you stay another day
Oh, don't leave me alone like this
Don't you say it's the final kiss
Oh, won't you stay another day

I touch your face while you are sleeping
And hold your hand, don't understand what's going on
Good times we had return to haunt me
Though it's for you all that I do seem to be wrong

Scotland if you've got to go away
Don't think I can take the pain
Won't you stay another day
Oh, don't leave me alone like this
Don't you say it's the final kiss
Oh, won't you stay another day
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 13 February 2014, 10:15:56 PM
What the f*** is that?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Thursday 13 February 2014, 10:17:23 PM
 :lol: East 17 innit
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 13 February 2014, 10:17:56 PM
:lol: East 17 innit

Yeah but it's rubbish.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Thursday 13 February 2014, 10:36:26 PM
The lyrics or Scottish Independence?

Ah, both, I get you now :thup:

Good spot there
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Thursday 13 February 2014, 11:39:40 PM
:thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 14 February 2014, 08:47:02 AM
So they canty have the pound, next the BBC.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 14 February 2014, 10:28:21 AM
So they canty have the pound, next the BBC.



Oh ye cannae shove yer grannie aff the bus,
Oh ye cannae shove yer grannie aff the bus,
Ye cannae shove yer grannie
For she's yer mammie's mammie,
Ye canna shove yer grannie aff the bus.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 14 February 2014, 10:29:47 AM
 :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Friday 14 February 2014, 10:43:18 AM
So they canty have the pound, next the BBC.



Oh ye cannae shove yer grannie aff the bus,
Oh ye cannae shove yer grannie aff the bus,
Ye cannae shove yer grannie
For she's yer mammie's mammie,
Ye canna shove yer grannie aff the bus.

Ive been singing that in my head in a thick Glasgewian accent for the last ten minutes now

Can't make it go away  :huff:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Friday 14 February 2014, 12:38:03 PM
So they canty have the pound, next the BBC.



Oh ye cannae shove yer grannie aff the bus,
Oh ye cannae shove yer grannie aff the bus,
Ye cannae shove yer grannie
For she's yer mammie's mammie,
Ye canna shove yer grannie aff the bus.

Singin' am no a Killie am a Jag,
Singin' am no a Killie am a Jag,
Singin am no a Killie,
Am no so fuckin' silly,
Singin am no a Killie am a Jag.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: MKSC on Friday 14 February 2014, 12:44:19 PM
So they canty have the pound, next the BBC.



Oh ye cannae shove yer grannie aff the bus,
Oh ye cannae shove yer grannie aff the bus,
Ye cannae shove yer grannie
For she's yer mammie's mammie,
Ye canna shove yer grannie aff the bus.

Singin' am no a Killie am a Jag,
Singin' am no a Killie am a Jag,
Singin am no a Killie,
Am no so fuckin' silly,
Singin am no a Killie am a Jag.

What garbled f***ing nonsense is this.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 16 February 2014, 07:38:35 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26215963
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Sunday 16 February 2014, 07:44:53 PM
No f***er wants to be friends with independent Scotland, like.

I don't see that Scotland joining the EU should be any more awkward than any other country though.  Would trust them to do it properly more than some of the nations that are already signed up members.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 16 February 2014, 07:46:47 PM
Just some reality coming out for the Scottish people to think about when voting for the Utopia fancy land that Salmond keeps pushing.

Cant walk away and take everything with you Scotland, what is it to be?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Sunday 16 February 2014, 07:55:16 PM
Isn't it pretty much widely accepted that there's no way the referendum will pass?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Sunday 16 February 2014, 08:00:38 PM
Isn't it pretty much widely accepted that there's no way the referendum will pass?

Nah, its about 60-40 against but the yes campaign has been picking up.

The last few days we have had the UK parties and the bank of England secretary come and say Scotland will not be able to keep the pound and now the EU President saying that it will be difficult for Scotland to remain in the Eu, it will have to reapply and be voted in. But any counter that comes up against the yes vote, the SNP always come out and accuse people of bullying. 

I think over the next coming weeks and months we will see and hear more sound bites of what Scotland wont be able to keep to counter Alex Salmonds wonderland he is promising the Scottish people.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Sunday 16 February 2014, 08:07:37 PM

Maybe the 'merkins will have them.  51st state.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: madras on Sunday 16 February 2014, 08:58:37 PM
Isn't it pretty much widely accepted that there's no way the referendum will pass?

Nah, its about 60-40 against but the yes campaign has been picking up.

The last few days we have had the UK parties and the bank of England secretary come and say Scotland will not be able to keep the pound and now the EU President saying that it will be difficult for Scotland to remain in the Eu, it will have to reapply and be voted in. But any counter that comes up against the yes vote, the SNP always come out and accuse people of bullying. 

I think over the next coming weeks and months we will see and hear more sound bites of what Scotland wont be able to keep to counter Alex Salmonds wonderland he is promising the Scottish people.
a poll in a few weeks should be interesting as the news about them not keeping the pound or being in the EU should have sunk in a bit.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: neesy111 on Sunday 16 February 2014, 09:06:45 PM
Isn't it pretty much widely accepted that there's no way the referendum will pass?

Nah, its about 60-40 against but the yes campaign has been picking up.

The last few days we have had the UK parties and the bank of England secretary come and say Scotland will not be able to keep the pound and now the EU President saying that it will be difficult for Scotland to remain in the Eu, it will have to reapply and be voted in. But any counter that comes up against the yes vote, the SNP always come out and accuse people of bullying. 

I think over the next coming weeks and months we will see and hear more sound bites of what Scotland wont be able to keep to counter Alex Salmonds wonderland he is promising the Scottish people.

Where is this 60-40 stat from?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Sunday 16 February 2014, 10:26:32 PM
I'd quite happily vote for an independent Scotland with a new currency, an application to join the eu and to essentially wash hands of the uk pound liabilities. On top of removing the Westminster elite and ending the patronising 'we know what's best for you Scotland' attitude by a number of uk citizens. And I'm not even a scot.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Sunday 16 February 2014, 10:41:51 PM
I'm no expert on banking, but I have questions regarding currency union proposal. One of the big issues is that the rest of uk would refuse to underwrite/guarantee deposits in Scottish banks. I guess a major issue is RBS, which is huge, and doubtless an independent Scotland could not bail out. What on earth makes RBS a Scottish bank other than headquarters? Deposits in the bank aren't all made by Scots and are spread across the UK so would liabilities be shared? And since the UK effectively has 84 percent share in RBS pre independence, how would these shares be dealt with? Would they just be considered property of independent Scotland? I'm confused.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Sunday 16 February 2014, 10:54:40 PM
I'd quite happily vote for an independent Scotland with a new currency, an application to join the eu and to essentially wash hands of the uk pound liabilities. On top of removing the Westminster elite and ending the patronising 'we know what's best for you Scotland' attitude by a number of uk citizens. And I'm not even a scot.

 :thup:

It's not news that we will have to negotiate into the EU, there are plenty of counter arguments that suggest it won't be much of a big deal either. You won't see them on the BBC front-page though.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Monday 17 February 2014, 12:15:35 AM
I don't want to leave our Northern brothers behind.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Disco on Monday 17 February 2014, 12:16:44 AM
I don't want to leave our Northern brothers behind.

The Faroes? Doubt they're interested, pal.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Monday 17 February 2014, 09:00:11 AM
Isn't it pretty much widely accepted that there's no way the referendum will pass?

Nah, its about 60-40 against but the yes campaign has been picking up.

The last few days we have had the UK parties and the bank of England secretary come and say Scotland will not be able to keep the pound and now the EU President saying that it will be difficult for Scotland to remain in the Eu, it will have to reapply and be voted in. But any counter that comes up against the yes vote, the SNP always come out and accuse people of bullying. 

I think over the next coming weeks and months we will see and hear more sound bites of what Scotland wont be able to keep to counter Alex Salmonds wonderland he is promising the Scottish people.

Where is this 60-40 stat from?

My arse.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Monday 17 February 2014, 09:06:19 AM
On top of removing the Westminster elite and ending the patronising 'we know what's best for you Scotland' attitude by a number of uk citizens. And I'm not even a scot.

Whether it's Westminster or Edinburgh, people will naturally continue to be dissatisfied with whatever government they have.  As I've posted before, this is the single biggest flaw in the whole debate imo: that the lives of Scots would automatically be improved by 'home rule' and detachment from Westminster.  People are not going to be happier with unpopular policy decisions (which are still going to have to be made, unless Salmond is playing in God Mode with infinite cash) simply because they've been made 400 miles further North. 

This is standard 21st century democracy we're talking about; five million people won't all have their voices heard just by virtue of the Government being closer at hand.  And when (if) Salmond f***s up, and any incoming government (who may have been unionist through the process) says "well, we told you this would happen" but there's no way back into the Union for them.. I don't know.  Properly organised and empowered regional assemblies seems the best solution to me (easier said than done, of course, but a closer vote than Cameron expects might help to force the issue).


Where is this 60-40 stat from?
My arse.

:lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Monday 17 February 2014, 09:11:51 AM
I don't want to leave our Northern brothers behind.

The Faroes? Doubt they're interested, pal.

Admit it - you need us :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Monday 17 February 2014, 10:12:54 AM
On top of removing the Westminster elite and ending the patronising 'we know what's best for you Scotland' attitude by a number of uk citizens. And I'm not even a scot.

Whether it's Westminster or Edinburgh, people will naturally continue to be dissatisfied with whatever government they have.  As I've posted before, this is the single biggest flaw in the whole debate imo: that the lives of Scots would automatically be improved by 'home rule' and detachment from Westminster.  People are not going to be happier with unpopular policy decisions (which are still going to have to be made, unless Salmond is playing in God Mode with infinite cash) simply because they've been made 400 miles further North. 

This is standard 21st century democracy we're talking about; five million people won't all have their voices heard just by virtue of the Government being closer at hand.  And when (if) Salmond f***s up, and any incoming government (who may have been unionist through the process) says "well, we told you this would happen" but there's no way back into the Union for them.. I don't know.  Properly organised and empowered regional assemblies seems the best solution to me (easier said than done, of course, but a closer vote than Cameron expects might help to force the issue).


I think the majority of people are well aware of the democratic process like. I'd say folk are more dissatisfied with the fact that we as a country very often end up with a government we didn't vote for, quite understandably. Nobody with any sense should be considering this an automatic ticket to a perfectly governed country either. What it is, is an opportunity to improve on a broken system and if we vote NO there will almost certainly not be that opportunity any time soon. The real work would start after a YES vote and has been already in some cases. I agree with devolving more power to the regions and it is something that has been talked about amongst various YES leaning groups and I'd hope will be pushed more.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Monday 17 February 2014, 10:23:45 AM
Fair enough: personally, I see more risk than potential gain for you guys since the 'real work starts after' argument presupposes that you can produce effective and credible oppositions who buy into the single nation idea.  I also think 'the government you vote for' is something of a pipe dream, under virtually any political system.

And I don't want to have to change my money when I make my twice-a-month visits :shifty:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Monday 17 February 2014, 10:25:54 AM
How many people in the UK or any democracy end up with a government they want??

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Monday 17 February 2014, 10:28:11 AM
How many people in the UK or any democracy end up with a government they want??

Only the Prime Minister :)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Monday 17 February 2014, 10:28:32 AM
 :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Matt on Monday 17 February 2014, 11:55:25 AM
It's odd that while the SNP argue that Scotland is better off with an Edinburgh government, they are happy for critical monetary decisions to be made in London, with Scotland having little or no say in MPC decisions.

And while Salmond complains of being 'dictated to', it was his movement which published a 400-page document of 'how its going to be' without giving a great deal of thought to anyone else.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Monday 17 February 2014, 01:56:46 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26220638
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Monday 17 February 2014, 02:23:48 PM
If the bloke had a standing army I reckon we would be at war by now :lol:  The rhetoric and posturing (from both sides) is getting embarrassing :anguish:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Rob W on Monday 17 February 2014, 03:04:57 PM
Wee Eck asks for "Clarity" and when he gets it  he rubbishes the advice

Embarrassing to say that the President of the European Commission, who has spent his life in Brussels, doesn't know what he's talking about...

Really???
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Monday 17 February 2014, 03:42:28 PM
He wanted different clarity, not that clarity.  Clarity which doesn't make his plan look doomed from whichever angle you look at it (which it increasingly does; you can't just ignore the Chancellor and the EU president if you're hanging your hat on them in future).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Monday 17 February 2014, 04:32:13 PM
No doubt more will be coming up in the future, the BBC is going to be an interesting subject once that pops up.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Shay's Given Tim Flowers on Monday 17 February 2014, 06:41:20 PM
I don't know why but it saddens me a little to think of Scottish Independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Monday 17 February 2014, 07:11:15 PM
Fortunately the people of Scotland, while not exactly the brightest of the bright, are too clever to let it happen.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: div-s- on Monday 17 February 2014, 07:41:40 PM
Fortunately the people of Scotland, while not exactly the brightest of the bright, are too clever to let it happen.

Hopefully most of the population think like both of us.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: LucaAltieri on Monday 17 February 2014, 08:00:51 PM
More localised regional government is the way forward. It gives people more power to govern themselves. For that reason alone I support Scottish independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: triggs on Monday 17 February 2014, 08:12:25 PM
Why are Scotland, northern Ireland and Wales allowed to have their own football teams? Surely only countries should be allowed to participate, not places that are too afraid to be countries.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Monday 17 February 2014, 08:15:13 PM

Because it's just football and not nearly so serious a business as you're making out..?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: triggs on Monday 17 February 2014, 08:17:13 PM

Because it's just football and not nearly so serious a business as you're making out..?
Is there any other instances where this is allowed though?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Monday 17 February 2014, 09:00:18 PM
Why are Scotland, northern Ireland and Wales allowed to have their own football teams? Surely only countries should be allowed to participate, not places that are too afraid to be countries.

Because they are the 2nd, 3rd & 4th oldest football associations in the world.

It counts for something :thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: brummie on Monday 17 February 2014, 10:41:55 PM
Isn't it pretty much widely accepted that there's no way the referendum will pass?

Nah, its about 60-40 against but the yes campaign has been picking up.

The last few days we have had the UK parties and the bank of England secretary come and say Scotland will not be able to keep the pound and now the EU President saying that it will be difficult for Scotland to remain in the Eu, it will have to reapply and be voted in. But any counter that comes up against the yes vote, the SNP always come out and accuse people of bullying. 


The bullying argument is really pathetic.

I understand that the "English b******s, f***ing Tories, stamping all over you" argument goes a long way if applied correctly (although, I am English, but I f***ing hate being considered by default a Tory), but it's one thing to use it as a default fall-back position, it is surely another thing entirely to expect a majority of people to align the futures of themselves, their families, their jobs, their financial security, to a party which doesn't really have any more than that to say.

The fact is, Osbourne took the advice of the Treasury. Independent civil servants, who laid out what the legal position is re currency. The governor of the Bank of England, who makes economic decisions, but not political ones, has had his say. Barroso has had his say.

These are people in the key positions, reacting to factual, legal documents, prepared by independent civil servants. They're stating legal fact, not opinion.

"You can't steal the pound from us, it is as much ours as years" is factually incorrect. There's no ifs and buts about it. It is incorrect, legally.

To suggest EU membership could be achieved within 18 months is also absolutely absurd (ask any of the countries who have spent, or are still spending, years acceding to the EU). That's before you even get to wonder how Spain would react when being asked to vote on Scottish accession.

I don't have any pro or con feeling culturally re Scottish independence. I'm not Scottish, but if i were, maybe I'd feel different, I don't know. But what I do know is that there is not a chance on earth I would hitch my future well being and that of my family to a bunch of assumptions which have been proven to be factually incorrect at worst, or at best, absurdly optimistic.

You've got to be really sure you want independence to go along with that. Which makes me wonder how much the SNP really want it, given they're practically begging for currency union with the country they're leaving. Haven't they noticed the Eurozone and how currency union means creeping back door political union, like it or not?

Isn't that what they're supposed to be breaking up, political union?

The whole thing just smacks of delusion and a dreadfully half-arsed failure to think about what they'd do if these - very predictable - conditions were to arise. They've arisen now, and there seems to be no answer.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Monday 17 February 2014, 11:13:35 PM
More localised regional government is the way forward. It gives people more power to govern themselves. For that reason alone I support Scottish independence.

That's more a question of how democracy is organised than about political and geographical union though. You could just as easily use it to argue for independence for Carlisle because nobody in Westminster cares about them. We do need to do better on making parliament properly representative.

But IMO the global trend needs to be towards bigger and closer union between people and nations. I find this arguing about dividing the planet up into smaller and smaller chunks really depressing. Every social and technological development points to a smaller and smaller planet with fewer and fewer differences between nations and people.

Obviously you could argue it's easy for a person from an independent nation to argue this, and I guess there's sometimes truth in that.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: newsted on Monday 17 February 2014, 11:18:32 PM
Well, this is a tricky one, with me being half and half, family both sides, etc., but I just don't trust politicians of any sort to have the first f***ing clue what they're doing, the less experienced being worse than the more experienced, on average, although they are all eminently capable of f***ing us all up with their ineptitude.

I don't think the Yes people have thought it through. I do know there is a lot of emotion involved. Me dad was SNP all the way, and I could understand his position, but if the Yes vote wins then it could break the two countries financially. We're so intertwined now with RBS and HBoS and the huge reliance of Scotland on British taxpayers' money, what with the massive insurers like Standard Life, Scottish Equitable, Scottish Life, Scottish Widows, Scottish Mutual, Scottish Provident all banking British money from across the whole country and keeping people in jobs there, it would be a disaster to try to redraw that. :lol: Imo, obvs.

Still, on the plus side, I could have a dual passport. How cool would that be? :lol: Free haggis at the border every time :snod:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: brummie on Monday 17 February 2014, 11:23:08 PM

I don't think the Yes people have thought it through. I do know there is a lot of emotion involved. Me dad was SNP all the way, and I could understand his position, but if the Yes vote wins then it could break the two countries financially. We're so intertwined now with RBS and HBoS and the huge reliance of Scotland on British taxpayers' money, what with the massive insurers like Standard Life, Scottish Equitable, Scottish Life, Scottish Widows, Scottish Mutual, Scottish Provident all banking British money from across the whole country and keeping people in jobs there, it would be a disaster to try to redraw that. :lol: Imo, obvs.

RBS isn't even a "Scottish" bank.

It is majority owned by the British taxpayer, it doesn't just rely on UK money, it has gone way beyond that. It was bailed out by the UK government, and is majority owned by the UK government.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: ponsaelius on Monday 17 February 2014, 11:29:02 PM

Because it's just football and not nearly so serious a business as you're making out..?
Is there any other instances where this is allowed though?

Guam
Macau
Hong Kong
Northern Mariana Islands
Aruba
Bermuda
Anguilla
Curacao
Montserrat
British Virgin Islands
US Virgin Islands
Cayman Islands
Puerto Rico
American Samoa
Cook Islands
Tahiti
New Caledonia
Gibraltar
Faroe Islands
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: newsted on Monday 17 February 2014, 11:36:01 PM

I don't think the Yes people have thought it through. I do know there is a lot of emotion involved. Me dad was SNP all the way, and I could understand his position, but if the Yes vote wins then it could break the two countries financially. We're so intertwined now with RBS and HBoS and the huge reliance of Scotland on British taxpayers' money, what with the massive insurers like Standard Life, Scottish Equitable, Scottish Life, Scottish Widows, Scottish Mutual, Scottish Provident all banking British money from across the whole country and keeping people in jobs there, it would be a disaster to try to redraw that. :lol: Imo, obvs.

RBS isn't even a "Scottish" bank.

It is majority owned by the British taxpayer, it doesn't just rely on UK money, it has gone way beyond that. It was bailed out by the UK government, and is majority owned by the UK government.

:thup: Was my point, if I had one, mate. Employs lots of people in Scotland though, and they can't divorce us as easily as some of them think. You're almost the last person I would argue with, man.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Interpolic on Monday 17 February 2014, 11:37:52 PM

Because it's just football and not nearly so serious a business as you're making out..?
Is there any other instances where this is allowed though?

Guam
Macau
Hong Kong
Northern Mariana Islands
Aruba
Bermuda
Anguilla
Curacao
Montserrat
British Virgin Islands
US Virgin Islands
Cayman Islands
Puerto Rico
American Samoa
Cook Islands
Tahiti
New Caledonia
Gibraltar
Faroe Islands

Fictional places such as Andorra and San Marino are allowed as well.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Monday 17 February 2014, 11:55:00 PM
More localised regional government is the way forward. It gives people more power to govern themselves. For that reason alone I support Scottish independence.

That's more a question of how democracy is organised than about political and geographical union though. You could just as easily use it to argue for independence for Carlisle because nobody in Westminster cares about them. We do need to do better on making parliament properly representative.

But IMO the global trend needs to be towards bigger and closer union between people and nations. I find this arguing about dividing the planet up into smaller and smaller chunks really depressing. Every social and technological development points to a smaller and smaller planet with fewer and fewer differences between nations and people.

Obviously you could argue it's easy for a person from an independent nation to argue this, and I guess there's sometimes truth in that.

Everything points towards bigger and bigger blocks across the world, big emerging countries doing deals with other big emerging countries, trying to tie up alliances and finding common ground on important issues to give themselves a mutual advantage in a dynamically changing world and yet it's very possible that one of the longest geo-political unions could go by the wayside later this year.

Personally, I think Scotland going it alone would be bad for everyone in the UK, we're simply better to stick together and try and sort out the really difficult issues in-house and be a stronger more equatable UK in the future.

Some sort of Devo Max will probably be the outcome hopefully and that would be no bad thing.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: newsted on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:06:37 AM

Fictional places such as Andorra and San Marino are allowed as well.

:lol: Nearly ended up working in San Marino back in the day, English, Italian, bit German, bit French, just what you needed for the tourists. Had a limit to how many forrens were allowed though and couldn't hang around for a month, so back I went. If you go to Rimini it's that dark mountain up there. The tax-free one, dammit.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: ponsaelius on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:09:29 AM
I've been to San Marino, its damn clean. Too clean.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: newsted on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:13:44 AM
No forrens, innit?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: ponsaelius on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:19:31 AM
Aye, no minging Brits there doing translation jobs and ruining the spotless streets with their loutish ways.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: newsted on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:39:12 AM
:lol: Whatever. I was impressed by how quickly the staff jumped from one language to another, and they were good people too. I thought I could learn. And have a good time. Damn that permesso di lavoro thing. Happened in mainland Italy too, I had a job lined up, no permesso, no lavoro. No lavoro, no permesso. And round we went.

It's lovely in Newcastle, like. I understand that things have changed elsewhere.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:44:56 AM
No forrens, innit?

So pure. Just San Marinoians. Marinoans. Marinoish.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: newsted on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:54:41 AM
No forrens, innit?

So pure. Just San Marinoians. Marinoans. Marinoish.

:lol: Sammarinesi, obviously. From everywhere else, but with ID showing it's state-approved.

:okay:

Yet again.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 11:05:05 AM
More localised regional government is the way forward. It gives people more power to govern themselves. For that reason alone I support Scottish independence.

That's more a question of how democracy is organised than about political and geographical union though. You could just as easily use it to argue for independence for Carlisle because nobody in Westminster cares about them. We do need to do better on making parliament properly representative.

But IMO the global trend needs to be towards bigger and closer union between people and nations. I find this arguing about dividing the planet up into smaller and smaller chunks really depressing. Every social and technological development points to a smaller and smaller planet with fewer and fewer differences between nations and people.

Obviously you could argue it's easy for a person from an independent nation to argue this, and I guess there's sometimes truth in that.

Everything points towards bigger and bigger blocks across the world, big emerging countries doing deals with other big emerging countries, trying to tie up alliances and finding common ground on important issues to give themselves a mutual advantage in a dynamically changing world and yet it's very possible that one of the longest geo-political unions could go by the wayside later this year.

Personally, I think Scotland going it alone would be bad for everyone in the UK, we're simply better to stick together and try and sort out the really difficult issues in-house and be a stronger more equatable UK in the future.

Some sort of Devo Max will probably be the outcome hopefully and that would be no bad thing.

Totally disagree myself. The most successful countries these days are often smaller ones, one where local government is key and the smaller local councils have more power. The world is such an inter-connected place now that there is no need to be part of a huge block anymore, everything can be accessed regardless of political size and for me certainly being one of these huge 'superpowers' is not desirable in the slightest.

There's absolutely no chance of devo max being an option, it's already been discussed and dismissed.

Newsted, surprisingly RBS is mainly owned by Westminster now and only 10% of it's employees are based in Scotland. There are plenty arguments to suggest getting rid of RBS and the like would be beneficial to Scotland in the long term if we vote YES.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 11:13:30 AM
Colin, we've probs been over this before but how will Scotland fund

Free perscriptions
Free University places
National defence
National broadcasting
Benefit system
Pensions
Boarder control
Funding for Europe (EU)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 11:42:35 AM
Colin, we've probs been over this before but how will Scotland fund

Free perscriptions
Free University places
National defence
National broadcasting
Benefit system
Pensions
Boarder control
Funding for Europe (EU)


Sorry Gimp, no time to go into all of that right now. The financial times recently did a study on our finances though, can't seem to find it online as I think you might have to pay for it but here are the main points from it: http://wingsoverscotland.com/unleashing-a-firestorm/. Yep, I know the site is a totally pro-independence one but the FT certainly isn't.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 11:53:29 AM
Figures based on using the pound, if Scotland does get those oil fields as their own and the possibilities of new fields opening up then Scotland as a country will have to spend a fair bit of wedge on defence of those fields.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:07:50 PM
Nothing to stop us using the pound even if westminster did go against the Edinburgh agreement. There are other viable options. I'm not sure how much defence of oil fields costs tbh or who is responsible for that
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:12:06 PM
Nothing to stop us using the pound even if westminster did go against the Edinburgh agreement. There are other viable options. I'm not sure how much defence of oil fields costs tbh or who is responsible for that

Well the defence of your oilfields would be your own responsibility surely?

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 12:32:49 PM
Nothing to stop us using the pound even if westminster did go against the Edinburgh agreement. There are other viable options. I'm not sure how much defence of oil fields costs tbh or who is responsible for that

Well the defence of your oilfields would be your own responsibility surely?



No idea tbh. The intention is to join NATO and have a modest air/navy force comparable to the likes of Norway and Denmark. You'd have to think there's been a major f***-up somewhere if defending the oilfields isn't covered by that and I'd imagine the NO campaign would be all over it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 01:04:01 PM
I'd imagine they would fall under national security. If you're going to derive benefit from them it'll be your responsibility to defend them.
Not sure whats involved in that tbf but I doubt NATO is going to get involved.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 18 February 2014, 10:18:56 PM
Brummie can you point me in the direction of these legal facts regarding the currency and us joining the EU?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: Rob W on Saturday 22 February 2014, 09:30:51 AM
FYI Scotland will get almost all the oilfields and we'll get the gas fields - its been known for years

But how they will run a defence force after buying AirForce 1 for Wee Eck God alone knows...............................  Scottish Regiments have dreadful recruiting figures
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Saturday 22 February 2014, 09:37:51 AM
Colin, we've probs been over this before but how will Scotland fund

Free perscriptions
Free University places
National defence
National broadcasting
Benefit system
Pensions
Boarder control
Funding for Europe (EU)


Going back to this Gimp, this man answers it much better than I can. It's over half an hour long but packs in pretty much everything I've read regarding the financial issues of independence. Excellent talk.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8cKHcZn60

Aye Rob, who knows how so many other small countries manage it eh? Just cause it's wee eck we won't though.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 27 February 2014, 12:55:36 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26364418

Oh dear...

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Thursday 27 February 2014, 01:46:13 PM
Expect more of that.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Friday 28 February 2014, 06:25:14 AM
Although it is a very limiting position, Scotland can use whatever currency it wants. Some countries (i.e. Ecuador, Panama) use/have used currencies that have nothing to do with their own government and do it without permission.

In concept, I am all for independence. Scotland does not feel well served by the government and hasn't for ages (and the same could be said of the NE). It wont get better, and if anything the home counties (the financial and political power base of the UK) are drifting further right from the rest of the Country. The biggest problem I have with independence is that this will only further alienate the NE from having any decision making ability in government. Tory rule forever in England is something I cannot stomach. I have very mixed feelings about this.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 28 February 2014, 10:01:17 AM
If we(Scotland) do get independence, do you not think this could be a trigger for reform throughout the UK Cali? Certainly not straight away but in time. If the rest of the UK sees us governing ourselves Without major issues then it might swing it away from the tories? Not that labour are much better but people may be less likely to stand for the nonsense.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 28 February 2014, 11:54:36 AM
If we(Scotland) do get independence, do you not think this could be a trigger for reform throughout the UK Cali? Certainly not straight away but in time. If the rest of the UK sees us governing ourselves Without major issues then it might swing it away from the tories? Not that labour are much better but people may be less likely to stand for the nonsense.

I caught an interesting debate in the early hours of sunday morning, after hockey practice.   The guests on the BBC were talking about the EU and being a victim of its own success. 

Basically, the Eu has created this very safe haven for lots of small countries.  The bigger powers and the EU as acollective are worried about these Independence movements, if Scotland forges ahead with the "yes" vote then its going to lead to all sorts of regions wanting to delcare Independence and be part of the Eu.

The EU was never meant to be a place where countreies could devolve over time.

I think the EU might might come down hard on an independent Scotland, to deter other regions from doing the same. Spain is very worried over the Scottish vote as it may push forward the Catalan claim to Independence, also Corsica is making noises about Independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Friday 28 February 2014, 11:57:26 AM
Not sure what to make of this...

http://www.stringerville.com/2014/02/23/scottish-independence-an-open-letter-to-england/ (http://www.stringerville.com/2014/02/23/scottish-independence-an-open-letter-to-england/)

Quote
Scottish Independence; An Open Letter To England
 23/02/2014  Jay    — 88 Comments

I wrote about my views on the Scottish Independence referendum last week. I don’t intend to make a habit of it. This will be my last post on the subject –at least until closer to the time- but I do have a few things left to say about (and to) people south of the border. And that’s not to ignore people in Wales and Northern Ireland. In the first place, I grew up in England and live in Scotland, so I’m more qualified to speak on the issue from that point of view and don’t feel I should pretend speak for how people in the other two countries feel. In the second place I think -as my piece today will speak to- people in those countries are likely already familiar with there being two (or more) sides to this debate.

We’re starting to see English figures in the media –through websites and twitter- express their opinions on the referendum. This is a good move. The conversation needs to widen. Although the vote is only for people who live in Scotland, there will still need to be strong working relationships between all the countries of the current UK after independence, so it’s vital that we raise the level of debate across the UK as a whole.

Many of these voices mean well. They are comedians, writers, musicians and artists who have started to realise that the No campaign is all about negativity, and they want to engage and make an argument for why they feel Scotland should stay in the UK. The problem is that many people in England don’t really have a frame of reference for the conversation, and so their comments can come across as ignorant.

And I do not mean ignorance as we often use it, as a wilful lack of understanding or a choice to be either stupid or rude. It’s a loaded term but I mean it in a very unloaded way. They just don’t get to see the other side. South of the border (though this may be different in the borders and areas closer to Scotland) there simply hasn’t been the same levels of conversation and debate that have been growing up here.

To grow up in England is really to only get one side of the debate given to you on the issues of self-rule for the other countries of the UK. It’s to be told that all of the UK (including the rest of England) is subsidized by London. It’s to have any alternative voices, such as Alex Salmond, become figures for ridicule and lampoon. More than either of those, it’s to be presented with the emotive ideas that countries who want to break away and manage their own affairs are somehow motivated by a love for historic battles and hate everything English.

Some people simply accept that version as the truth. Others, such as the more questioning or progressive members of the population, can feel that there is something amiss, bit still have no frame of reference for knowing what it is. People in Scotland get angry at this, and say, well why don’t they read up on it more? I might then ask those people to stand on the spot and give me a detailed analysis of the political issues of the West Midlands over the last fifty years. A region that has it’s own long history and has a larger population than Scotland. Then do the same for Yorkshire. Stand and talk to me about Wales. Or Cornwall. Even the dreaded London which, much as many of us use it as a scapegoat, has a much wider and richer history and culture than simply Westminster and bankers. Without having any frame of reference it can be very difficult to even know where to start, and we all need to remember that people down in England haven’t been having the same level of debate that we’ve had up here.

The issue of the referendum, and Scottish Independence in general, comes up sometimes in my conversations in Glasgow. But it comes up every time that I speak to someone down in England. That speaks to people who are being starved of information. People who could engage fully with the debate once given more than one side of the conversation.

I can understand why people in the Yes camp have not been all that bothered with engaging south of the border. It’s up here that the vote will be cast. It’s the people up here who really need to be up to speed with all of the issues come polling day. But after independence, Scotland and England will still need to be working together, so it’s important that people down there are engaged in the debate and aware of the issues. If we stand back and just let the No camp dictate the message that England gets, then we are allowing them to create a division, to stir up a large nation of people who will be thinking they’ve just been told to ‘f*** off’ by Scotland.

I know this because it used to be me. The first 26 years of my life –give or take a few adventures across the border into Wales- were spent living in England. When I came north I came loaded with only one side of the debate. And this is as someone who prides himself as a progressive, left wing (when not anarchist) thinker. I like to ask questions and I never trust authority, and yet, somehow, by osmosis, I only had one side of the independence conversation in my head.

And the first couple of years in Glasgow actually helped to enforce that. Because there are people up here who hate the English. There are people who will say stupid, insensitive things to me when they hear my accent. They do exist. But they’re also a tiny idiot minority, one that I had to learn to look beyond and ignore. And, let’s be fair England, there are also plenty of people south of the border who say stupid ignorant things about the Scots and think it’s acceptable to use the terms “Jock” or “Scotch” to describe them.

It took me time –years- to get some of that programming out of my system and to stop being an English idiot, even though I was trying hard not to be that very thing. So, to people north of the border I would plead patience. When you see people down in England saying some loaded or ignorant things, take a deep breath and engage with them in a conversation. Give them the other side of the story, not a shouting match. I promise you it’s worth it. And it will be even more worth it once the countries go their separate ways.

And to people south of the border? Read on.

The version of events you are being given isn’t the only one. I’m not going to cross the line into telling you it’s the wrong version, because that is something to be decided over the coming months. But there are other voices you need to be aware of. Voices like National Collective, Radical Independence and Women For Independence.

First let’s talk currency and assets. My own personal (and therefore unimportant) view is that Scotland should have it’s own currency and peg it to Sterling for the first few years, see how things go from there. I think attempting to do anything else is just a needless complication in the debate. But the position of the Scottish Government is to use the much talked about ‘Sterling Zone’ currency union, and it’s a view that is backed by many experts and would keep transactions costs down for people on both sides. The UK Government is saying they will not allow this –even though the people of the UK have not yet democratically elected a Government to be in charge by 2016 when Scotland would go independent- and are making crass comments about currency not being “an asset to be divided like a CD collection.”

The version of this story that you are getting in England is that Alex Salmond is on some personal campaign to be unreasonable and expects that he can still use the currency of the UK even after telling the UK to ‘get lost.’ You’re also being told that he is ‘threatening’ to default on Scotland’s share of the UK debt if he doesn’t get everything his own way. You are being given a story about a very unreasonable man making stupid demands.

In truth the only party being unreasonable in this is the UK Government. They are refusing to pre-negotiate on any aspect of the break-up, and so they are the ones creating all the “questions” that they then demand the SNP must “answer.”

The simple fact is that Scotland is currently part of the UK. As such, it has a proportional stake in all of the assets of the UK. It has a stake in the BBC, it has a stake in the military, in the civil service and, yes, in both Sterling and the Bank Of England (which, despite it’s name, was nationalised to become an asset of the UK in the previous century.)

So if and when Scotland (or any other country or region) of the UK decides to leave the union, it is reasonable to take with it a share of the assets from that union. That new state would also, reasonably, take part of the liabilities of the union. The Scottish Government are proposing to do just that. The UK Government are refusing. If the logic of Holyrood is followed through, Scotland takes away a shared use of Sterling and the other assets that it has helped to build, as well as a portion of the current UK debt. If the logic of Westminster is followed through, Scotland suddenly becomes an oil-rich country with zero debt and its own currency, while the people of the remaining UK are left to foot the bill for all the failings of the union. Think that through, and you’ll see which side is causing the problem.

I mentioned oil. Yes. Oil. I don’t like talking about it. I look to the future and would rather discuss an economy based around green energy. But if we have to talk about the black stuff, let’s talk about it honestly. There are 30-40 years of oil left in the north sea. One comment that a fellow Englishman made to me last year was, “of course, whether Scotland keeps the oil depends on how the UK Government agrees to break up the territory.” I get the feeling that’s a genuine belief. Let’s dispense with it now as patronising English nonsense. The oil is in Scottish waters now as part of the UK, and will be in Scottish waters after independence. The reason it’s ‘owned’ by the UK at the moment is because Scotland is in the UK, not because the UK deems to allow Scotland to have some land and water.

One of the reasons it becomes important to labour the point over oil is to help puncture another myth. “London subsidises the rest of the UK,” or “Scotland can’t afford to be independent.” Both are wrong. It could actually be argued that the rest of the UK subsidises London, since more tax money is spent there than anywhere else, but that’s beside the point. The real issue is that Scotland can afford to go it alone. Hell, any country can afford to go it alone, it’s just down to a decision about what it means to ‘afford’ it. What that looks like, and what model of social security and governance is affordable, is a decision to be made by that independent country. You will often hear that Scotland has free prescriptions and free universities, and be told that more ‘per head’ is spent in Scotland than in England, and you will be told this in a way that suggests Scotland is getting more out of the UK than it puts in.

The truth is that Scotland get’s slightly less back than it puts in –once oil is taken into account- but that the Scottish Government has different priorities with it’s budget than their UK counterparts. The people of England don’t get less money spent on education and health because Scotland is stealing the money, they get less spent because the UK Government chooses to spend less.

And all of this leads onto my final points. And the most important points for people south of the border to realise in this whole thing; What it’s actually about.

This whole referendum is being framed to the English as “Alex Salmond VS England.” That’s rubbish. More than that, it’s a lie. You are being lied to by your government and your media, and they are getting away with it.

Alex Salmond is a democratically elected First Minister, and he leads the also democratically elected SNP. They deserve more respect than to be painted as troublemakers and upstarts (though I tend to like troublemakers and upstarts.) But even then, they are not the issue. The independence referendum is about five million people choosing how they want the country they live in to be run. Salmond and the SNP represent one aspect of that (and deserve credit for being the ones who have put the referendum on the table,) but they are just part of a larger issue.

I’m proof, if you want it. I’m English. I don’t like nationalism. I don’t like the SNP and would be highly unlikely to vote for them as the first government of an independent Scotland. I’m not even a great fan of Alex Salmond.

And yet, I’m voting ‘yes.’ As many other people will. As will writers and artists and musicians and office workers. Shop keepers, civil servants, business owners. As will Labour voters, Green voters, anarchists, immigrants and even some Tories. As will people born in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Because this referendum is not a one-man show and it’s not a one party ticket. It’s a chance to do something different, and to show that we are sick of being lied to and spun. You can join in. You can start to demand the same. You deserve the same. But first you’ve got to start demanding it. Because don’t listen to the spin of the No camp, nor to some of the empty arguments of the Yes camp- You are not all Tory. England, the real England, has a proud history of radicals, troublemakers and progressives. The founder of the modern Labour party may have been a Scot, but it was in England (and Wales) that he found people who would stand with him. It was from England that the world took Thomas Paine, one of the most important troublemakers in history. It was in England that ‘The Battle Of Cable Street‘ happened, even if it’s hard to imagine the Left having that kind of guts now. And don’t just take my word for it, here’s Mark Thomas, in his book Extreme Rambling;

What could be more English than rambling? In 1932, over 400 ramblers took part in a mass trespass in Derbyshire at Kinder Scout: in defiance of the police, they walked onto the mooreland to, ‘take action to open up the fine country at present denied to us.’ According to the Guardian, the walkers sang ‘The Red Flag’  and the ‘Internationale’ on the way………..It is, for me at least, a perfect example of an event that defines Englishness, where hundreds of working people risked arrest in order to enjoy the view.
England, this is your chance just as much as it is Scotland’s. You’re occupied at the moment by a minority group who control and dictate their agenda to you. You are represented by politicians who ignore your real spirit and voice. It’s time to take it all back.

And with that, I’ll shut up about the whole issue now and go back to writing books.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 28 February 2014, 12:10:33 PM
I wonder what will happen to the Naval Shipyards In Scotstoun, UK Naval ships have never been built offshore.  I wonder if BAE Systems will be forced to move all the work to Barrow or back to Portsmouth??

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Friday 28 February 2014, 12:49:59 PM
I wonder what will happen to the Naval Shipyards In Scotstoun, UK Naval ships have never been built offshore.  I wonder if BAE Systems will be forced to move all the work to Barrow or back to Portsmouth??



Yes, I'd imagine that any such decisions would be made according to the usual determining factors of political expediency over economic efficiency
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Incognito on Friday 28 February 2014, 01:15:04 PM
I wonder what will happen to the Naval Shipyards In Scotstoun, UK Naval ships have never been built offshore.  I wonder if BAE Systems will be forced to move all the work to Barrow or back to Portsmouth??



Yes, I'd imagine that any such decisions would be made according to the usual determining factors of political expediency over economic efficiency

Do you get a vote GM, as an English exile?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Friday 28 February 2014, 02:53:31 PM
I wonder what will happen to the Naval Shipyards In Scotstoun, UK Naval ships have never been built offshore.  I wonder if BAE Systems will be forced to move all the work to Barrow or back to Portsmouth??



Yes, I'd imagine that any such decisions would be made according to the usual determining factors of political expediency over economic efficiency

Do you get a vote GM, as an English exile?

Abso-bloody-lutely. And I shall exercise my democratic entitlement by abstaining. :smug:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Friday 28 February 2014, 05:53:11 PM
If we(Scotland) do get independence, do you not think this could be a trigger for reform throughout the UK Cali? Certainly not straight away but in time. If the rest of the UK sees us governing ourselves Without major issues then it might swing it away from the tories? Not that labour are much better but people may be less likely to stand for the nonsense.
No, I do not. As the writer Stringer points out, most people in England have a very provincial and/or one-sided view and that wont change in the current environment (as it is reinforced by the private mainstream media). Also independence as known by most "Aye" voters wont be easy, and every single challenge will be a smug and naval gazing "I-told-you-so" moment. And even if Scotland, say achieved the standard of living of Norway, the media would not report on it and most English people would never even know about it (or care).
You and the majority of Scots might think that something like this is possible, but that is because you are intrinsically less provincial. Scots are forced to see the broader picture political in this context due to their minority principality status, which is the same force leading the independence movement.
That said I do sympathise and if I lived in Scotland I would probably be voting for independence... but I don't.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 28 February 2014, 07:36:12 PM
If we(Scotland) do get independence, do you not think this could be a trigger for reform throughout the UK Cali? Certainly not straight away but in time. If the rest of the UK sees us governing ourselves Without major issues then it might swing it away from the tories? Not that labour are much better but people may be less likely to stand for the nonsense.
No, I do not. As the writer Stringer points out, most people in England have a very provincial and/or one-sided view and that wont change in the current environment (as it is reinforced by the private mainstream media). Also independence as known by most "Aye" voters wont be easy, and every single challenge will be a smug and naval gazing "I-told-you-so" moment. And even if Scotland, say achieved the standard of living of Norway, the media would not report on it and most English people would never even know about it (or care).
You and the majority of Scots might think that something like this is possible, but that is because you are intrinsically less provincial. Scots are forced to see the broader picture political in this context due to their minority principality status, which is the same force leading the independence movement.
That said I do sympathise and if I lived in Scotland I would probably be voting for independence... but I don't.


 :thup: Fair enough. I'm not as sure about it as yourself and I certainly don't wish tories upon the English forever more but it should be noted that the Scottish vote has not really had that much influence over the years.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Friday 28 February 2014, 08:31:02 PM
The vote has been influential just as its people have (the last three PMs were Scots to some degree)... but it hasn't been enough and Scotland has been drifting away from the "political mainstream" of the home counties... just like Northern England. And just to sound like the old 40-something curmudgeon that I am: I blame Thatcher.

...mumble mumble... f*cking poll tax... [/dons flat cap for a walk with the whippet]
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Matt on Friday 28 February 2014, 10:40:06 PM
I find it baffling that a party so keen to remove Scotland from decisions made in the HP is so keen to stay Sterling.

Of course, but a few years ago Salmond talked down Sterling as yesterday's currency and was far more enthused with the concept of joining the Euro. And that's what unsettles me about this whole process. General elections can be won and lost by campaigning on hot topics rather than what would make the biggest difference to the country, you can tailor your policies to suit the prevailing winds. We've come to accept that because after five years we can turn them out and move onto a new set of debates.

This is different. The result of this vote will be felt for decades and possibly centuries. The SNP's approach has to be unwavering in its key principles, but the currency debate has moved with the mood music. If the independence vote had been in 2004 then much of that future oil wealth would be put in peril through Eurozone periphery bailouts with monetary policy set thousands rather than hundreds of miles away.

For me the currency debate doesn't indicate independence is the right move or the wrong move. But it does suggest that for something so fundamental to a campaign which has been built up over generations, someone somewhere within the SNP should have done a lot more thinking. The first response shouldn't have been about being bullied or dictated to, but a clear and reasoned counterproposal.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Friday 28 February 2014, 11:17:22 PM
I think you are mixing two different topics here: validity of independence and the opportunistic nature of the SNP. Not necessarily the same thing.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Saturday 1 March 2014, 12:20:36 PM
I find it baffling that a party so keen to remove Scotland from decisions made in the HP is so keen to stay Sterling.

Of course, but a few years ago Salmond talked down Sterling as yesterday's currency and was far more enthused with the concept of joining the Euro. And that's what unsettles me about this whole process. General elections can be won and lost by campaigning on hot topics rather than what would make the biggest difference to the country, you can tailor your policies to suit the prevailing winds. We've come to accept that because after five years we can turn them out and move onto a new set of debates.

This is different. The result of this vote will be felt for decades and possibly centuries. The SNP's approach has to be unwavering in its key principles, but the currency debate has moved with the mood music. If the independence vote had been in 2004 then much of that future oil wealth would be put in peril through Eurozone periphery bailouts with monetary policy set thousands rather than hundreds of miles away.

For me the currency debate doesn't indicate independence is the right move or the wrong move. But it does suggest that for something so fundamental to a campaign which has been built up over generations, someone somewhere within the SNP should have done a lot more thinking. The first response shouldn't have been about being bullied or dictated to, but a clear and reasoned counterproposal.

Salmond wanted Scotland to be like Iceland orginally, then Iceland had a massive financial meltdown.  He then moved it to be like Norway but using the Euro, in the mean time the Euro almost went tits up and you have a whole load of counrties now scrabbling round to meet the new EU economic rules he flips it back to keeping Sterling.

I mean how can you vote for a guy with a "YES" vote when he keeps flipping one of his main policies for an Independent Scotland.

He has since been told "no sterling" if a yes vote goes through and the EU have said Scotland will need to reapply for membership.  Is applying to be an EU country a 10 year wait?  cant remember???
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Saturday 1 March 2014, 12:24:22 PM
What a load of nonsense Gimp. You can do better than that.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Saturday 1 March 2014, 12:32:31 PM
He keeps flipping it and claiming bullying.

I dont know how you cant see it.  :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Saturday 1 March 2014, 01:51:37 PM
The Scottish government's stance on the currency issue hasn't changed since it was set out by them. The plan B is clearly to peg to sterling(another viable option and one which many in the YES campaign would prefer). I can understand why they have adopted the stance they have, I think it would be unwise politically to do anything different at the moment. There are plenty of examples of people sharing similar views to this, people from the outside looking in.

I know we can afford to run our own country, that really isn't up for debate any more. The currency issue is one that will be resolved and in any event we will be using the pound.

We aren't voting for a guy by the way, it is essential to understand that in this whole thing.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Saturday 1 March 2014, 08:06:20 PM
We aren't voting for a guy by the way, it is essential to understand that in this whole thing.
My point exactly... And will forever be ignored.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Wullie on Saturday 1 March 2014, 08:51:07 PM
We aren't voting for a guy by the way, it is essential to understand that in this whole thing.
My point exactly... And will forever be ignored.

The vote is for him though, of sorts. A person can't possibly vote for independence if they believe that the person who will be responsible for running the show afterwards is incompetent.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Open_C on Saturday 1 March 2014, 09:10:28 PM
Aye, and this also goes back to my earlier point about a yes vote presupposing that somebody else in Scotland buys into this sufficiently and is capable of acting as an effective opposition (perhaps there's already somebody; I don't know as much about this as I should).  Otherwise you'd be in a spot of bother if it all goes tits up and all the credible opposition were no voters whose policies were based on remaining in the UK.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Sunday 2 March 2014, 06:27:30 AM
I do not think he is incompetent personally. As mentioned I am not completely on board with independence, but Salmond is for the most part directing the conversation, winning the momentum game , and looks a bit of a tool when forced to constantly reacting to issues being dropped on him as he has limited scruples. That's the thing, he's opportunistic and willing to change for the bigger picture (in his mind). When I was young the SNP was more like UKIP and to the far right of the Tories, now they are projecting themselves like some sort of progressive socialists :lol:
The difference is that the SNP have backed up their talk with action. With the so called "tartan tax" they have been back filling New Labour and Tory cuts to health care and education which are in full effect in England. Scots know about England and are more aware of these differences than vice-versa. However, they also remember when the SNP was very very different and know about their moral flexibility . This is the difference.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Sunday 2 March 2014, 02:37:36 PM
Calling Salmond incompetent is blatantly incorrect, and we have elections in 2016. I doubt I'll vote SNP. A YES vote is not about one man, no matter how many times the media say it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Dave on Sunday 2 March 2014, 02:41:47 PM
Surely if the party solely responsible (I assume) for the concept of independence are successful, they'd be a shoo-in for victory at the next few elections at least?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Wullie on Sunday 2 March 2014, 02:44:03 PM
Calling Salmond incompetent is blatantly incorrect, and we have elections in 2016. I doubt I'll vote SNP. A YES vote is not about one man, no matter how many times the media say it.

I never said he was incompetent. I said that anybody who thinks he is can't possibly vote for independence so in that sense, a Yes vote is a vote for him.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Sunday 2 March 2014, 03:14:26 PM
Surely if the party solely responsible (I assume) for the concept of independence are successful, they'd be a shoo-in for victory at the next few elections at least?

Hard to say Dave. If Scottish Labour were to come back in a new form then there would be a challenge for sure. Wouldn't be surprised if members of The SNP go their separate ways after a YES vote, since that is their goal.

It is great that this referendum is raising the game a bit here. Many people with little or no interest in politics in general are now getting involved and have lots of information available to them which I think regardless of the outcome is great.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Sunday 2 March 2014, 03:25:37 PM
Calling Salmond incompetent is blatantly incorrect, and we have elections in 2016. I doubt I'll vote SNP. A YES vote is not about one man, no matter how many times the media say it.

I never said he was incompetent. I said that anybody who thinks he is can't possibly vote for independence so in that sense, a Yes vote is a vote for him.

'Running the show afterwards' - They are in until 2016 regardless, then people can vote. We won't actually be an independent country until that date after a YES vote. There are loads of people voting who aren't agreeable with the SNP.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: AfroP on Sunday 2 March 2014, 03:31:43 PM
I say let the Scottish have independence, let them be free of the hateful horrible English that have kept them at heel for so long and forced them to live in the squalor of drug abuse,alcoholism and violence that is rife across the tiny speck of land they live on. fine by me

but when they gain independence, lets send every single one of them in an English job back to Scotland to find work, so that we have more English jobs for English people(or Polish ones if your down south)
 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Sunday 2 March 2014, 03:42:42 PM
http://lewisgrahambrown.wordpress.com/2014/02/24/a-open-letter/

Quote
AN OPEN LETTER

Posted on February 24, 2014 by lewisgrahambrown
Image

On Saturday at the pub a friend of mine, a Northern Irishman who has lived here for years asked me for my take on the Scottish independence referendum.  He said he was on the fence and was considering not voting because he “isn’t Scottish”.  I disagreed and said that as someone who lived here and is affected by the decision he is as entitled to a say as anyone.  The following is the email I sent him.  Not sure why I am publishing it other than it is the best and most concise summary of my reasons I have written so far.  I could have written pages more, but it’s a start.  Please read and if you think it will convince someone pass it on.

“OK fella,

You wanted more info on the referendum so I thought I would put this together to give you my view on the matter.  It is unashamedly biased, and for that I am not sorry.  I think that the decision in September is the most important in my lifetime and I think the case for Scottish independence is strong on both an emotional and practical level.  This is in no way the most detailed or eloquent case, but it’s the best I can do without boring you with pages and pages of stuff.

First off, why am I voting yes?  You will probably hear some people talk about the movement for Scottish independence as a narrow minded nationalist movement that is all about Braveheart and hating the English.  While I am sure there are some people for whom that is what it is all about, in my experience it couldn’t be farther from the truth.  For me independence is all about letting those who live in Scotland finally make decisions on how to run their affairs, be able to shape their society as they would like and confront the challenges of the modern world in the way they choose to.  My girlfriend is English, as are many of my best friends, colleagues and people who I respect deeply.   I have family living in London.  Scottish independence is not about where people were born, who they identify with or even about whether you feel more ‘British’ or ‘Scottish’.  I totally disagree with the idea that Scot’s living outside of Scotland should have a vote in the referendum.  The choice is about how those who live here want to be governed and for that reason I think that a Romanian or Somali immigrant living in Glasgow has more right to have a say in that choice than a Scot who has not lived here for 40 years.  Being from Northern Ireland, you said you though that you shouldn’t vote because you aren’t Scottish. Well I say that you live here and this decision will affect you as much as it affects me so of course you should vote.

I don’t feel that the UK Governments in Westminster make decisions that affect our lives in our interests.  That is total understandable, Scotland makes up only 5 million of the UK’s 60+ million population, they have to do what is best for the majority, but that will never be Scotland and as a result we will always have to live by their decisions, and in the interests of the more populated areas in the South East. The decisions we would make here could and probably would be much different if we had a full say.  Nuclear weapons on the Clyde, where the money from oil goes, social and welfare policy, NHS privatisation, how we behave to the world including how we go to war with, bank bonuses and regulation, all of these things are imposed on us by Westminster Governments that we often don’t vote for and don’t act in our interests.

 Image

I want a Scotland based on proportional representation of parties, on common interest of the people who live here, where the resources we have in the shape of oil are saved and reinvested in our future instead of being used to fund tax cuts to already rich middle class voters.  I want to live in a country that doesn’t throw its weight around in the world and still thinks it can dictate to others.  A country that hasn’t been involved in an overseas war of one kind or another for the last 100 years.  A country that doesn’t sell arms to dictatorships around the world then pretends it is a beacon of democracy.  A country where the school you parents paid for you to go to isn’t the most important factor in how successful you are in life, where all the major political parties aren’t led by graduates of two exclusive universities.  A country with a well-funded and functioning public health service that isn’t being sold off cheap to rich party donors, much like all of our other public services.  I can’t guarantee that an independent Scotland will not have some of these things, and I know that making things better will be hard work, but I am certain that if we remain part of the UK it will only get worse and no amount of devolution will stop it being imposed on us eventually.

I am voting Yes for positive and negative reasons.  Positive because I believe that given the chance to make our own way I the world Scotland can be a wealthy, fair and strong small country that can be respected and liked around the world.  The debate so far has necessarily felt inward looking, but once we vote Yes we can open up again to the world as a new nation which in itself is incredibly exciting.  Negative because all I can see in remaining in the UK is more of the same old politics of nasty blaming of the poor and watching the rich establishment cement its place at the top of the heap.  We can’t change the rest of the UK, we have voted Labour for decades and all that is happened is that Labour has just got more like the Tories.  Perhaps the shock of Scotland leaving will wake people up and create change, but otherwise it will never change.

Image

I am more than happy to answer any questions you have on specifics, but to start with here are some websites to have a look at that make the case better than I can and address specific issues:

www.wingsoverscotland.com

www.nationalcollective.com

www.bellacalledonia.org.uk

www.businessforscotland.co.uk

www.newsnetscotland.com

derekbateman1.wordpress.com/

I have put part of my case for Yes (there’s a lot more detail), if you want the case for No you will have to talk to someone else, or probably just open a newspaper or listen to the BBC.  For some reason the national press seems to be totally against the idea of independence.  Some think it is because they are part of the establishment that feels threatened by independence, others that they don’t understand it because they are so London focussed they think we are all running around in kilts hating the English.  Feel free to read the websites above and the mainstream press and make up your own mind.  All I will ask is that you bear in mind a few common criticisms about press coverage whenever you are reading something, these are:

“Could” does not equal “Will”

When you read a headline quoting someone saying what “could” happen in an independent Scotland have a think.  Who is this person and what side of the debate are they on? Do they give any actual evidence? They are taking about the future, so how do they know? Is this just a scare story? Which leads us on to…..

 Image

Project Fear

Early in the campaign it was leaked that the No camp were secretly calling their strategy “Project Fear”.  This relates to the idea that for the No campaign to win all they need to do is to scare people enough about the unknown that they will vote No to keep everything safe and warm and cuddly.  This will be enough for some but do you really want to live in a country that was too scared to take responsibility for itself and try and better itself?  Not to mention that a lot of these scare stories are nonsense and rely on the fact that in the future nothing is certain.

The Status Quo

You will read a lot about how a No vote will keep things the same, this isn’t true.  First, nothing stays the same, there is a direction of travel in any country and all you need to do is take a look at how the last few governments in Westminster have been behaving to get an idea of what a No direction might be.  Not to mention there have been politicians in all parties suggesting that after a No there should be review of the formula that decides how much money Scotland gets, basically cutting the amount the Scottish Government gets each year.  Things won’t stay the same.

Its Salmond’s Folly

The papers love to paint Scottish independence as all about one man, because it sells papers and they know lots of people hate Alex Salmond.  The fact is independence is no more about Salmond that Britain is about Cameron.  First thing that happens in an independent Scotland is we hae a general election and you can vote in any party you want.  In fact the other parties, Labour, Conservatives and Lib Dems will finally be able to make policies that are solely about Scotland rather than being told what to do by their London head offices.

Jam Tomorrow

You will read a lot about the Devo-Max option, and other possible arrangement that would allow Scotland to stay part of the UK but get more powers.  First, this isn’t an option on the ballot paper, it is an idea that might happen, maybe, if we vote No and the right party gets in at the next election.  This sort of thing is known as ‘Jam Tomorrow’ and has always been used to stop Scots trying to be independent by promising things afterwards that never materialise.  Once we have voted No there is no reason for Westminster to give us anything, we have said we don’t want independence so it isn’t a threat to them anymore.  If they seriously wanted to give us more powers they would have given them to us.

The UK subsidises Scotland

This is crap and is a lie we have been told for generations to keep us in our place.  While each person in Scotland gets £1,200 more on average spend on them per year, the per person contribution to the exchequer in Westminster is £1,700 more in Scotland than the rest of the UK.  We get more, but we pay even more.  An independent Scotland would also be able to fit its economic policy in line with Scotland’s needs instead of trying to fit in with the policy set in London in the interests of the City and the financial sector.  Have a read of this and see what you think:

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/

That is just a few thoughts outlining why I think we should be voting Yes in September.  I am sure you have lots of questions about certain bits and pieces, have a look at the sites and I will answer any I can.  There is lots and lots of information out there, just don’t become blinded by it all.  At the end of the day it is down to whether you think we can do better than we are right now by taking control of our own destiny, or if you think things are as good as they are going to be with the way things are.

Good luck!”
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Wullie on Sunday 2 March 2014, 04:08:36 PM
Calling Salmond incompetent is blatantly incorrect, and we have elections in 2016. I doubt I'll vote SNP. A YES vote is not about one man, no matter how many times the media say it.

I never said he was incompetent. I said that anybody who thinks he is can't possibly vote for independence so in that sense, a Yes vote is a vote for him.

'Running the show afterwards' - They are in until 2016 regardless, then people can vote. We won't actually be an independent country until that date after a YES vote. There are loads of people voting who aren't agreeable with the SNP.

The currency issues, EU issues etc will still need to be resolved before then though.

And why would you then vote for someone who vehemently disagrees with independence and whose policies are based on staying within the UK? Doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Sunday 2 March 2014, 04:18:32 PM
Calling Salmond incompetent is blatantly incorrect, and we have elections in 2016. I doubt I'll vote SNP. A YES vote is not about one man, no matter how many times the media say it.

I never said he was incompetent. I said that anybody who thinks he is can't possibly vote for independence so in that sense, a Yes vote is a vote for him.

'Running the show afterwards' - They are in until 2016 regardless, then people can vote. We won't actually be an independent country until that date after a YES vote. There are loads of people voting who aren't agreeable with the SNP.

The currency issues, EU issues etc will still need to be resolved before then though.

And why would you then vote for someone who vehemently disagrees with independence and whose policies are based on staying within the UK? Doesn't make sense to me.

Labour will have to adjust and become a 'new' party. There are many, many prominent Labour figures behind a YES vote. If it goes through nobody is going to vote for a party whose policies are based on staying in the UK unless they are some kind of nationalist nutcase. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Matt on Monday 3 March 2014, 01:20:49 PM
I think you are mixing two different topics here: validity of independence and the opportunistic nature of the SNP. Not necessarily the same thing.

No, my post was entirely directed at the flakiness of Salmond and the SNP (who, for balance, are no better of worse than Lab/Con etc). The difference is that Lab/Con/LD can make a manifesto and change their minds a few years later, have a new campaign and most people forget the past and lap up the latest spin. Because the SNP is the vanguard of the Yes vote, it must be more robust and resilient than the main parties sided with No; the burden of proof is greater when enacting fundamental change, rather than a shuffling of political chairs.

Many voters will ignore Salmond and the SNP's policies and vote Yes, I accept that. But undecided voters and those who have generally been politically dis-engaged will to some extent conflate independence itself and its main political proponent.

I didn't make any comment on the validity of independence, just the danger of setting long-term policies based on short-term trends. Scotland as a new independent nation will need steadfast leaders of principle and not another batch of the populists who rock up to the HP every five years.

As for follow-on Holyrood elections, surely there should be efforts made to accelerate the process in the event of a Yes vote? A period of uncertaintly does no-one any good and to give parties a clear 12 months should be enough to set out their stalls and to engage the elecorate while they are still 'switched on' to political issues.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Thursday 6 March 2014, 08:43:12 AM
With the so called "tartan tax" they have been back filling New Labour and Tory cuts to health care and education which are in full effect in England.

Sorry mate. As someone who lives and works in Scotland, in public policy, I'm perplexed by your reference to the "Tartan Tax" - by which I presume you mean the Scottish Variable Rate which no Scottish Government has ever used? So I'm not sure I follow your point here - can you explain?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 6 March 2014, 09:13:08 AM
Shell and a few other companies coming out in fav of the Union.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: GeordieMessiah on Thursday 6 March 2014, 09:24:41 AM
Shell and a few other companies coming out in fav of the Union.

BREAKING NEWS: Establishment fat cats in backing status quo shocker
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: geordiedean on Thursday 6 March 2014, 09:25:36 AM
I say let the Scottish have independence, let them be free of the hateful horrible English that have kept them at heel for so long and forced them to live in the squalor of drug abuse,alcoholism and violence that is rife across the tiny speck of land they live on. fine by me

but when they gain independence, lets send every single one of them in an English job back to Scotland to find work, so that we have more English jobs for English people(or Polish ones if your down south)
 

And what about all us English living and working in Scotland??  Myself included are we to be deported and lose our jobs and lives in a similar way you suggest

What I do find strange is that myself as an Englishman living and working in Scotland gets a vote yet Scottish folk living in England don't how bizarre is that. There are an awful lot of non scots going to be able to vote yet the natural born Scots living south of the border will be without one

Does it also mean I and many others will now need a work permit to continue in employment
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 6 March 2014, 11:10:34 AM
"British citizens habitually resident  in Scotland on independence will be considered Scottish citizens. This will include British citizens who hold dual citizenship with another country. Scottish born British citizens currently living outside of Scotland will also be considered Scottish citizens. "

I presume Afto's post was tongue in cheek Dean.  ;)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Rob W on Thursday 6 March 2014, 02:11:38 PM
sounds like the Ukraine - get all the English into Kintyre and around the N Sub base and Dave will intervene
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Rob W on Thursday 6 March 2014, 02:12:22 PM
"BREAKING NEWS: Establishment fat cats in backing status quo shocker"
or

"major employer and investor not impressed with Wee Eck"
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Thursday 6 March 2014, 02:36:29 PM
sounds like the Ukraine - get all the English into Kintyre and around the N Sub base and Dave will intervene

How many none military people or companies rely on that Nuclear subs base for business?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: geordiedean on Thursday 6 March 2014, 04:42:59 PM
sounds like the Ukraine - get all the English into Kintyre and around the N Sub base and Dave will intervene

How many none military people or companies rely on that Nuclear subs base for business?

An absolute shitload of non military and surrounding companies rely on Faslane  similar to how many non Nissan employees rely on Nissan
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Thursday 6 March 2014, 06:29:57 PM
GM it's an old and outdated term from the 90s used to describe the additional funding gained from all tax sources used to pay for the Scots Parliament and any regional programmes
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: CaliMag on Thursday 6 March 2014, 06:43:54 PM
I may have misused the term as it was something thrown around a lot by those opposed to devolution when I worked for Labour 20 years ago in London.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 7 March 2014, 12:15:13 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26477209
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 7 March 2014, 02:34:09 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26477209

Danny Alexander.  :icon_puke_r:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Friday 7 March 2014, 02:45:22 PM
 :lol: take that, Scotland
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ronaldo on Friday 7 March 2014, 03:17:30 PM
:papiss:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Ian W on Friday 7 March 2014, 03:37:03 PM
I can't stand Danny Alexander like, and I'm basically a Lib Dem. As if anything in economics or international relations is final.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Friday 7 March 2014, 03:40:47 PM
I can't stand Danny Alexander like, and I'm basically a Lib Dem. As if anything in economics or international relations is final.

 :thup: He's a disgusting character. I'd make him walk the plank before many a tory.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Belfast Mags on Friday 7 March 2014, 03:42:35 PM
Bitched slapped by Danny Alexander

Ouch
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 7 March 2014, 03:57:31 PM
Danny king of Scotland.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: MKSC on Friday 7 March 2014, 03:59:10 PM
The good thing with Scottish Independence is that if they vote yes then Danny boy is out of a job.

EDIT:

Was thinking some more about this. What happens to all the MP's from Scotland? Obviously they could run for the Scottish Parliament but, taking Danny Alexander as an example, his constituency has got an SNP MSP and have had since devolution. He's unlikely to get in there when they hold elections for the independent Scottish Parliament (especially as he is towing the coalition line towards independence).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: Matt on Friday 7 March 2014, 04:04:31 PM
Quote
Asked what would happen if the Scottish government "lost" such a negotiation, he added: "If the UK government sustains its current line of argument, the line of argument pursued by George Osborne, then what would happen is the UK would be assuming all of the responsibility for the debt of the UK.

"An independent Scotland wouldn't be saddled with the proportionate share of debt that we have freely accepted that we would have to take on
"The UK government would be walking in to assuming all of the debt, and that is another compelling reason why the circumstances that I've set out, of the rest of the UK agreeing to a currency union zone with an independent Scotland, is a strong and credible proposition."

That right there is fighting talk.

It's a straight negotiation- there is no logical reason why a currency system must equate to dividing of assets or liabilities (however much pish is said in those terms). There is no set of rules for exiting the UK- everything is down to the negotiating table. So when the SNP say this, they do not do so out of some underlying principle which they have simply made up- it is an outright threat.

We keep hearing that Scotland will be wealthy and successful (and the numbers seem to suggest it's not an unreasonable argument), so it doesn't need the implicit and explicit support of a currency union.

If it came to it, I think the bluff would be called, and instead all the assets and liabilities of the UK Government would rest entirely with the remaining UK government and there would be a long-drawn out prodcedure of selling down the excess. HMG would rather do that than enter formal union.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 11 March 2014, 10:18:04 AM
Some sane commentary on this week's latest 'carrot'.

http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/
Quote
The Future’s Behind You

I shouldn’t…I really shouldn’t…but damn it, I will. I’ll say what I think many are thinking. I’m losing patience with Unionist tinkering with the constitution. Didn’t they throw away their chance to claim they have the answer when they said No to a second question? Wasn’t that the time to step forward with an alternative and put it to the people for a mandate in the referendum?

Where have Ming and Gordon been all this time? (Sorry, I forgot, Gordon has been jetting around the globe business class earning over £900,000 for his “office” but not for himself, oh no, not like the man he stabbed in the back and tried to fire – Alistair – who at least spends the £170,000 a year he earns on top of his MP’s salary and expenses)

How many formulations of powers, responsibilities and services can we take, let alone assimilate? Why has it proved beyond them – those who can so enthusiastically club together against Scotland – to sit down and agree a precise and detailed option they all agree on…Ben Thomson at Reform Scotland managed it within weeks of the SNP winning the election. It is this total failure to come together to be constructive that is the least convincing part of their case. If they can’t do it now, what chance they will agree in the horse market of Westminster with angry English backbenchers demanding Scotland be told to shut up or it loses the Barnet Formula?

The Liberals won’t win the next election so we can pretty much discard their offer. It is highly unlikely either Labour or the Tories will win outright and whatever line-up we have in power they will be confronted by an angry mob who have had enough of the Scottish question and in no mood to back “concessions”. As you can see from the BBC website under today’s New Powers from Brown and Campbell story, the southern punters are already talking about appeasement by which I think they mean enhanced powers.

I will always accept the best Scotland can get if it’s less than independence but in order to persuade Don’t Knows I think they each need a guarantee from their London leaderships on the minimum powers to be in a manifesto and to have a done deal ahead of a General Election with red line issues no matter who forms a government or coalition. That is the question to be put to them. Does the London leader back this in the manifesto and is there agreement between all the Unionist parties (minus UKIP)? After all, they were able to bury every disagreement between themselves on the economy, on poverty, welfare, privatisation and every other divisive issue in order to present a united front against change so why not in support of change? So although I’m always interested in ideas and alternatives but this is a bellow from the elephant’s graveyard. Not so much a call to arms as a retrospective plea for mercy.  I think Scotland has moved on and they haven’t noticed.

Why wasn’t this the thrust of their approach for the last two years, with public meetings, published reports on policy areas, open debates on what kind of devolution in addition to the commissions? Has Johann actually asked her party members what they want? Her MSPs? Her constituents? Don’t be silly. This is Labour where they like nothing better than a darkened corridor and the smack of Stalin. Mind you, I haven’t noticed the party membership making demands either apart from LFI. Are they comatose, intimidated or silently waiting to vote Yes…

And is there something just a bit cringe-making about Johann always sitting behind other people? She’s behind Gordon and behind Alistair and behind Ed (either of them). I thought leaders were supposed to, erm, lead.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 March 2014, 10:33:54 AM
Tariq Ali : Dismantling the British State: : http://youtu.be/Uzsx2N6mB5s
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: alijmitchell on Thursday 20 March 2014, 10:41:29 AM
Some sane commentary on this week's latest 'carrot'.

http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/
Quote
The Future’s Behind You

I shouldn’t…I really shouldn’t…but damn it, I will. I’ll say what I think many are thinking. I’m losing patience with Unionist tinkering with the constitution. Didn’t they throw away their chance to claim they have the answer when they said No to a second question? Wasn’t that the time to step forward with an alternative and put it to the people for a mandate in the referendum?

Where have Ming and Gordon been all this time? (Sorry, I forgot, Gordon has been jetting around the globe business class earning over £900,000 for his “office” but not for himself, oh no, not like the man he stabbed in the back and tried to fire – Alistair – who at least spends the £170,000 a year he earns on top of his MP’s salary and expenses)

How many formulations of powers, responsibilities and services can we take, let alone assimilate? Why has it proved beyond them – those who can so enthusiastically club together against Scotland – to sit down and agree a precise and detailed option they all agree on…Ben Thomson at Reform Scotland managed it within weeks of the SNP winning the election. It is this total failure to come together to be constructive that is the least convincing part of their case. If they can’t do it now, what chance they will agree in the horse market of Westminster with angry English backbenchers demanding Scotland be told to shut up or it loses the Barnet Formula?

The Liberals won’t win the next election so we can pretty much discard their offer. It is highly unlikely either Labour or the Tories will win outright and whatever line-up we have in power they will be confronted by an angry mob who have had enough of the Scottish question and in no mood to back “concessions”. As you can see from the BBC website under today’s New Powers from Brown and Campbell story, the southern punters are already talking about appeasement by which I think they mean enhanced powers.

I will always accept the best Scotland can get if it’s less than independence but in order to persuade Don’t Knows I think they each need a guarantee from their London leaderships on the minimum powers to be in a manifesto and to have a done deal ahead of a General Election with red line issues no matter who forms a government or coalition. That is the question to be put to them. Does the London leader back this in the manifesto and is there agreement between all the Unionist parties (minus UKIP)? After all, they were able to bury every disagreement between themselves on the economy, on poverty, welfare, privatisation and every other divisive issue in order to present a united front against change so why not in support of change? So although I’m always interested in ideas and alternatives but this is a bellow from the elephant’s graveyard. Not so much a call to arms as a retrospective plea for mercy.  I think Scotland has moved on and they haven’t noticed.

Why wasn’t this the thrust of their approach for the last two years, with public meetings, published reports on policy areas, open debates on what kind of devolution in addition to the commissions? Has Johann actually asked her party members what they want? Her MSPs? Her constituents? Don’t be silly. This is Labour where they like nothing better than a darkened corridor and the smack of Stalin. Mind you, I haven’t noticed the party membership making demands either apart from LFI. Are they comatose, intimidated or silently waiting to vote Yes…

And is there something just a bit cringe-making about Johann always sitting behind other people? She’s behind Gordon and behind Alistair and behind Ed (either of them). I thought leaders were supposed to, erm, lead.

Don't you think that the problem from a yes point of view in asking for consensus from all parties on the impact of a no-vote is that eventually, if they (BT) want Scotland bad enough, they will actually hash together a consensus, take the wind out of the SNP sails, with it all really being an elaborate lie? They have nothing to lose by saying that and going back on it if the no vote prevails - it isn't like another referendum will be stomached any time soon.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - WHAT's Your Take On It...
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 20 March 2014, 12:54:53 PM
Possibly Ally although they are already so fragmented I can't see it happening. All the devo  nonsense they have come out with has been laughed off really, check out johann Lamont explaining their offering, total carcrash interview on newsnight.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: LucaAltieri on Thursday 20 March 2014, 04:57:34 PM
Saw an article on the Guardian site a couple of days back that made it sound like the tide has turned and a "Yes" victory is looking more likely. Good on 'em.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Varadi on Thursday 20 March 2014, 05:36:03 PM
The polls certainly seem to be getting a lot closer:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/latest-indyref-poll-yes-40-no-45-dont-knows-15.1395315480?

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: MKSC on Thursday 20 March 2014, 05:54:54 PM
You'd have to think that the more the UK Government tries to convince them to vote no the less likely they are to do it. Nobody trusts the coalition and events like yesterdays tweet just goes to emphasise how out of touch they are with people in the majority of England, let alone Rab C Nesbitt and his pals north of the wall.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Tomato Deuce on Sunday 23 March 2014, 06:04:48 PM
Quote
GULBERWICK, Scotland — In the late winter dusk, hundreds of Vikings are marching down to the beach, bearing flaming torches. Their studded leather breastplates glint in the firelight as they roar and sing.

It’s a scene that would have struck terror into the hearts of Dark Age Britons — and also perhaps an unsettling one for modern politicians on both sides of Scotland’s independence debate.

The fearsome-looking participants in a Viking fire festival known as Up Helly Aa live in Scotland’s remote Shetland Islands, a wind-whipped northern archipelago where many claim descent from Scandinavian raiders. They are cool to the idea of Scotland leaving Britain to form an independent nation, and determined that their rugged islands — closer to Norway than to Edinburgh — will retain their autonomy, whatever the outcome of September’s referendum.

“Shetland is different. We have Viking blood in our veins,” said the procession’s magnificently bearded chief Viking, or Jarl — by day a local authority housing officer named Keith Lobban.

There are only 23,000 Shetlanders, too few to make much difference to the outcome of the independence vote. But they have Viking-sized confidence, and a big bargaining chip: a chunk of Britain’s oil and gas reserves lie beneath Shetland waters.

Shetlanders are seeking new powers and official recognition of their special status — possibly along the lines of the Faroe Islands, a self-governing dependency of Denmark. The islanders feel their moment may have come, as Scotland’s fluid constitutional status gives them opportunities to seek concessions from both sides.

Tavish Scott, Shetland’s representative in the Scottish Parliament, said an independent Scotland “doesn’t have an economy if oil and gas doesn’t happen. And that gives Shetland some leverage.”

A “yes” vote for independence on Sept. 18 would trigger complex negotiations between Edinburgh and London over Scotland’s share of Britain’s offshore oil and gas — and of its trillion-pound national debt. A “no” vote is likely to lead to talks about giving Scotland more power of its economy and resources — especially its energy reserves.

Authorities in Shetland, which enjoys many local-government powers such as raising taxes and running schools, see the referendum as a chance to drive a hard bargain — something at which they have considerable experience.

For centuries, Shetland was a poor place, ignored by governments far to the south and reliant on the unpredictable fishery industry and on making knitwear from sturdy local sheep. But the islands have prospered since large reserves of oil were discovered offshore in the 1960s. Construction of Sullom Voe, one of Europe’s largest oil and gas terminals, brought jobs and new migrants who reversed decades of population decline.

Amid the rush of discovery, Shetland negotiated a generous compensation agreement with eager oil companies — creating an oil fund that has helped give the island chain well-paved roads, plentiful swimming pools and well-equipped community centers.

These days, oil production is dwindling, but French energy company Total is building a new natural gas plant on the islands.

Shetlanders are keen to have control over their resources — oil, gas, fish and even wind — and are wary of government meddling, no matter where that government is based.

“Whether decisions are made in Edinburgh or in London, they are still distant from Shetland,” said Adam Civico, editor of the Shetland Times newspaper.

Local lawmakers have suggested that Shetland and the neighboring Orkney islands might demand a bigger share of oil and gas revenue as a condition for joining Scotland. An online petition on the Scottish government website calls for residents of Shetland, Orkney and Scotland’s Western Isles to hold separate referenda on whether to join an independent Scotland, stick with Britain or declare independence — although any of those moves would require protracted negotiations, and the petition has only 525 signatories so far.

Officials in the island groups have formed the “Our Islands, Our Future” campaign to seek more power after the referendum, whatever the result.

“We want to make sure that out of this big constitutional debate, we decide what we want for our future, because Edinburgh doesn’t tend to pay much attention to the islands,” Scott, the lawmaker, told the BBC.

Scott speaks with a confidence that’s the product of centuries of difference from the rest of Scotland.

It’s hard to find tartan or kilts in Shetland, where Norse pride replaces the Celtic influence that shaped mainland Scotland. Shetland was Viking-ruled until it was mortgaged to Scotland by the king of Norway in 1469 to raise a dowry for his daughter.

There are still many Norse words in the local dialect, and Shetland abounds in Scandinavian place names such as Vidlin and Tingwall. With its raging surf, treeless hills and black volcanic rock, parts of Shetland could double for Iceland.

“I always feel when I go to Scotland I’m learning about someone else’s heritage rather than my own,” said Edna Irvine, who runs a clothing shop in Lerwick, Shetland’s only town.

The most spectacular sign of Shetland’s cultural difference is Up Helly Aa, a series of festivals held in communities across the islands in wintertime whose name means roughly “the end of the holidays.”

The event’s focus is a fiery parade — powered by marching songs and brass bands — that ends when the well-drilled amateur Vikings hurl their torches onto a replica longship that has taken months to build. The orange fireball lights up the night sky. Once the vessel has sunk, smoldering, into the sea, the participants head to local halls for evenings of music and comic skits that are part barn dance, part Mardi Gras.

“Viking heritage means everything to Shetland folk,” said 24-year-old Paul Hutton, eyeglasses glinting under his Viking helmet at an Up Helly Aa procession in the village of Gulberwick. “Shetland heritage and Shetland culture is so strong that everybody would say we are definitely Shetland first. Shetland first, and then Scottish, then part of the United Kingdom.”

That distinct identity makes Shetlanders weigh up the pros and cons of independence differently to other Scots. For many on the Scottish mainland — home to most of the country’s 5.3 million people — the decision is a battle between heart and head, between Scots’ famous prudence and their longstanding adventurousness.

The pro-independence forces led by First Minister Alex Salmond say an independent Scotland will use its oil and gas wealth to create a prosperous and progressive nation of 5.3 million with generous welfare provisions — a bit like Scandinavia, in fact.

The anti-independence “Better Together” campaign argues that independence would bring huge economic uncertainties. Scots could face the loss of their currency, the British pound, and an end to European Union membership. Some say British companies headquartered in Scotland will pack up and move south of the border, while military shipbuilding will desert shipyards near Glasgow and Edinburgh for English ports. Battles over who owns the North Sea oil and gas could drag on for years.

Most polls show the “No” side ahead, but up to 1 million voters remain undecided.

In Shetland, a strong sense of independence is balanced by a pragmatic streak that has led many to conclude their best bet is to remain part of Britain.

“I don’t think isolation works anymore,” said David Suckley, who runs an engineering firm in Lerwick. “We all depend on one other to such an extent nowadays.

“You can be too independent, and you’re very lonely then.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/scotlands-vikings-go-own-way-in-independence-vote/2014/03/23/a24cbe1e-b274-11e3-bab2-b9602293021d_story.html#
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Sunday 23 March 2014, 07:01:47 PM
The islands need more power that's for sure. There is absolutely no way people from the islands I'm from would want total independence, I can say that almost 100%. What Scotland does need is more power given to local areas as certain areas have hugely different needs. The Scottish Greens did a good report on it earlier this year; http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/03/RenewingLocalDemocracy_final_v2.pdf and the 'Our Island Our Future' thing has been taken onboard by the government and should be a good thing. You can see in the report we are so far behind other similar European countries it is ridiculous and needs to be changed.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Monday 24 March 2014, 09:56:30 AM
http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/scotland-isnt-different-its-britain-thats-bizarre

Quote
Britain is in a state of self denial, sitting at the bottom of European league tables, but convinced it still rules the waves. The aspirations of the SNP may seem ambitious, but all they are really proposing is to be a normal European country.

There is a trope I hear a lot at the moment: “Scotland is different”. Left to lie, on its own, with no explanation, it's a sort of petty nationalism. The idea that any one group of people is intrinsically unlike any other strikes me as a perverse way to understand humanity.

The context, usually, is political. Scotland has free education “because it's different”. Scotland hasn't privatised its NHS, “because it's different”. It's utter bunkum. The truth is that Scotland is, basically, a very normal Northern European country.

Across Northern Europe, university education is either free (in Germany and the Nordic countries) or costs only a few hundred Euros (in the Netherlands and France, for example). Most of Europe has much lower levels of income inequality than the UK. Apart from the Benelux countries and Cyprus, all of Europe's countries use more renewable energy than the UK, despite Britain having more potential than almost any of them.

In most of Europe, in fact, in most of the world, the idea that significant portions of your economy would be publicly owned is quite standard. In Northern Europe, it's not abnormal to have decent childcare provision, to work a sensible number of hours a day, and to be more productive in total as a result.

No, when people say that Scotland is different, that the social democratic aspirations of Scots are an anomaly, they are missing the point entirely. The social attitudes of Scots, and the policies of the Scottish Parliament, are pretty much standard for a European country. Scotland isn't the exception, it's the rule.

The thing that's weird isn't even England. Most English people are against privatisation, and though there is a small difference in attitudes towards social security, it's nothing that won't change over the years.

No, the thing that's an outlier is Britain. As the Radical Independence Campaign has pointed out, it's Britain that is the fourth most unequal developed country on earth, in which pay has in recent years fallen faster than in all but three EU countries, in which people work the third longest hours in Europe for the second lowest wages in the OECD despite having Europe's third highest housing costs, highest train fares and the second worst levels of fuel poverty.

It's Britain which has the least happy children in the developed world, the highest infant mortality rate in Western Europe and some of the worst child poverty in the industrialised world. It's British elderly people who are the fourth poorest pensioners in the EU. It's Britain which has the eighth biggest gender pay gap in Europe and child care costs much higher than most European countries.

It's Britain which has a wealth gap twice as wide as any other EU country, Europe's greatest regional inequality, productivity 16% behind the average for advanced economies and the worst record on industrial production of the rich world. It's Britain whose elite has a radical ideology: 40% of the total value of all privatisations in the Western world between 1980 and 1996 happened in the UK; and it's Britain's parliament which is uniquely undemocratic, with its noxious combination of first past the post and an unelected second chamber, yet holds more centralised power than almost any other legislature in the developed world. With all that, it should be no surprise that Britain has the lowest level of trust in our politicians.

Most people in the South East of England never seem to understand this. Blinded by the headlights and headlines of post imperial UK nationalism, the idea that “Britain is Great” pervades. We (I live in the South East at the moment) cling with white fisted knuckles to the notion that Britannia rules, unwilling to let go of our imperial past for fear that we might find we are just another European country. It's a myth which works much more in England, and which helps explain differences in the tendancy to believe immigrant scapegoating North and South of the border "if Britain is uniquely great" people infer "it can't be the system that's to blame, it must be outsiders".

But the truth is that this is a very sick country indeed. We are investing a net figure of nothing in our future economy, and instead just about keep our head above water by flogging off our assets at a rate which would astonish almost any other country and re-inflating speculative bubbles which suck any wealth we do create into an unproductive black hole London housing market which eats wealth out of the rest of the country, hoovering any investment away from anything productive and then complaining when it's asked to redistribute crumbs from its table.

A metropolis once at the centre of the biggest empire in human history and now at the centre of a global revolution of money-men over making things, of the wealthy over the rest is disguised by a blanket of post-imperial false confidence. Post-imperial Britain is a very strange, very damaged place. And before the people of these islands, the English in particular, can move on, and find a new place in the world, they need someone to finally point out that not only is this former emperor naked, not only does he no longer rule the waves, but his failure to grapple sensibly with either these facts has led to some pretty unhealthy habits. Telling a difficult truth is what friends are for. In part, that's what Scotland's referendum will be about.

But for most Scots, it'll be about their families and their communities. And so for them, it's important to understand this: when people say that Scotland could do better, this isn't about some nationalist belief that the talents or the solidaristic instincts of the Scots are unique. In order to be a significantly nicer place to live, all that Scotland needs is to be normal. Compared to being in broken Britain, living in a bog-standard average Western country may seem like an impossible, utopian fairy-land, to which only naïve children conned by lying politicians would aspire. But for most of the Western world, the sort of Scotland that the SNP talk about, that most yes campaigners say we can expect, isn't exceptional, it's not even better than average. I am a radical. I hope we can achieve much more. But the “cloud cuckoo land” aspiration of the Scottish Government is to be an average, run of the mill, bog-standard European country. Compared to where we are now, that would be a great start.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: ponsaelius on Monday 24 March 2014, 04:15:33 PM
http://rt.com/news/venice-votes-independence-italy-585/

Quote
Over 89 percent of residents in Italy's Veneto region have voted in an unofficial referendum in favor of independence from the rest of the country as Venetians seek to restore the glory of the old days by creating a state of their own.

Over two million residents of Veneto – the region of Italy surrounding Venice – took part in the so-called 'Veneto independence referendum' that lasted from Sunday to Friday. The survey, conducted online and backed by the region’s independence parties, has no legal power but aims to gather support for a bill calling for a referendum.

The poll also asked residents if they want the region to keep the euro and remain part of the European Union and NATO if it declares its independence. More than 55 percent of voters said they would prefer an independent Veneto to remain part of the EU, and over 51 percent said they want to remain in the eurozone. Over 64.5 percent said they want Veneto to be part of NATO.

The results of the vote were announced Friday in the city of Treviso, where hundreds of pro-independence activists gathered for a demonstration, waving the flags of the old Venetian Republic.

Earlier, the "yes" campaign – organized by pro-independence activists – said that if the majority voted for separation of the region, Veneto would issue a 'Declaration of Veneto Sovereignty' and stop all tax transfers to the central government in Rome.

Though opponents described the poll on Twitter as "total madness," supporters believe in a new, independent Republic of Veneto. They say the region would be inspired by the ancient Republic of Venice – a rich economic, cultural, and trading state known as “La Serenissima,” or “The Most Serene Republic of Venice.” The republic lost its independence when Napoleon conquered Venice in 1797.

Earlier in March, leaders of the independence movement said they were not going to wait for Rome’s approval, adding that they would begin the separation process if the population voted in favor of the move.

Veneto's President Luca Zaia – who supports the independence movement – said the region is tired of the lack of respect from Rome.

The president of the Veneto region, Luca Zaia gives a press conference on the vote for the independence of the region, on March 19, 2014 in Rome. (AFP Photo / Alberto Pizzoli)

The president of the Veneto region, Luca Zaia gives a press conference on the vote for the independence of the region, on March 19, 2014 in Rome. (AFP Photo / Alberto Pizzoli)

Members of the movement for Veneto independence say they were inspired by Scotland and Catalonia, both of which have also planned referendums for 2014. Scotland will vote on its independence in September, while Catalonia’s residents will take part in a similar vote in November. According to a Thursday online poll taken among Catalonia residents, nearly 59.6 percent of its population desires independence from the rest of Spain.

Independence supporters say Italy's economy is the key reason behind the bid, as Veneto is one of the wealthiest and most industrialized regions of the country.

“Veneto is the region that has been supporting financially Italy and the main reason [for separation from Italy] is economics,” Lodovico Pizzati, spokesman for the Veneto independence movement, told RT.

“We pay 70 billion euros in taxes to the Italian state and only a fraction comes back, so we’re looking at a gap of 20 billion euros."

Professor of history Paolo Bernardini explained that Veneto, as well as Milan and Lombardy, are stranded by the fiscal pressure coming from Rome.

“Venice pretty much as Milan and Lombardy are strangled by the Italian fiscal pressure, which is well above 60 percent, occasionally 70 percent. So it’s one of the strongest fiscal pressures in the world,” he told RT.

“By creating a new little and efficient state, we would reduce the fiscal pressure on the citizens and at the same time we would regain the independence of the city of Venice which was a beacon of European civilization until 1797, when it was closed by Napoleon.”


Everybody wanting to split these days. Italy has been a union for significantly less time than the UK so maybe not as crazy as it sounds.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Northerngimp on Monday 24 March 2014, 04:27:31 PM
This is not what the EU wants.  :lol:

All these nations wanting independence and expecting protection from the bigger nations.

The EU might have to make an example of one nation to show the rest its not worth doing.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Ronaldo on Tuesday 29 April 2014, 02:41:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGjiokfQ2A

 :clap: :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: TheGuv on Tuesday 29 April 2014, 02:51:18 PM
:lol:

He's very persuasive...

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: triggs on Tuesday 29 April 2014, 04:20:51 PM
:lol: scum, sub-human scum
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: LucaAltieri on Tuesday 29 April 2014, 06:06:18 PM
This is why any kind of popular vote worries me.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Troll on Tuesday 29 April 2014, 06:11:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGjiokfQ2A

 :clap: :lol:

Love the guy at the end.  Says if Scotland get independence he'll move to the UK,  but Wales because England lets all the immigrants in.  What does he think he'll be?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Disco on Saturday 31 May 2014, 09:28:06 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bo3mTSmCYAAob2u.jpg)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Belfast Mags on Saturday 31 May 2014, 11:32:41 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: neesy111 on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 09:26:39 PM
Any of our scottish friends watching the debate?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 09:37:29 PM
Myself. Salmond is an embarrassment, just shouts over Darling. Goes for slogans. Brought up alien invasion for f*** sake.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Disco on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 09:39:51 PM
Think if I was Scottish, Salmond would be the main reason why I'd be turned off the Yes campaign.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Slarth on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 09:41:26 PM
How did he get an alien invasion into the debate?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 09:48:33 PM
How did he get an alien invasion into the debate?

Some daft MP mentioned it a while back, joking obviously.  Think Salmond was trying to use it as an example of the disrespect Westminster has for Scotland.  Admittedly just tuned in as he was finishing it off, so might be wrong on the context. 

Got pro-Yes fanatics even saying Salmond f***ed it up being snide, petty.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 09:53:02 PM
Watched it, poor show as expected from both sides. You won't learn anything from this format of 'debate'. I'd encourage everyone to do their own digging, don't listen to the politicians and make up your own mind.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 09:54:00 PM
It was a poor debate.  Everyone keeps going on about Ponsonby being great, but he never once stopped either shouting over the other. 

Galloway would've wiped his arse with Salmond, for the record. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 09:55:30 PM
It was a poor debate.  Everyone keeps going on about Ponsonby being great, but he never once stopped either shouting over the other. 

Haha yeah I've noticed that, I thought he was s****. It's the format that is entirely wrong, it is never going to work.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 09:57:32 PM
Galloway would've wiped his arse with Salmond, for the record. 

Indeed. Sillars, Patrick Harvie or Robin McAlpine would have with Darling too.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Parsley on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 10:00:05 PM
I'm not Scottish (well, half and went to Glasgow Uni), but I watched as well.

I'm not necessarily against the premise of independence - it's been shown that Scotland is relatively rich, probably to the point where it could sustain itself, and I think within the right framework (potentially adopting a new currency) it could easily make a run of it. But, like Bluf, I've got no time for Alex Salmond who, instead of outlining a contingency plan for the currency when pressed by Darling, the presenter and the audience, either resorted to simply dismissing the issue because keeping the pound was 'logical and rational' for both parties or attacking Darling's political record. He's great at making digs at whoever his opponent is, but I really don't think he's the sort of statesman to carry an independent Scotland through what would be a difficult transitional process. He was pretty evasive when asked about free education as well, particularly with regard to English students paying into Scottish unis who, as post-independence EU citizens, would surely be exempt from paying tuition fees. The amount of income that Scottish unis would lose from this would be pretty considerable and, if the SNP are as committed as they say they are to free education, it would surely fall upon the taxpayer to bridge the gap.

In short, the debate didn't really do much to change my opinion (not that it matters) - I think Scotland probably does have the capacity for independence, but I have no faith in Salmond or SNP to brave what could be a bit of a storm based on what they're proposing.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 10:03:48 PM
For the record, Scotland would do fine as an independent country.  Just a matter of should they, for me.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 10:07:00 PM
I don't know why he won't say why he can't outline the plan B for currency(which will be pegging to the pound). The reason is that it will undermine Scotland during the political negotiations after a yes vote. The same with the English uni goers Parsely, that will depend on the EU negotiations.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Parsley on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 10:18:08 PM
I don't know why he won't say why he can't outline the plan B for currency(which will be pegging to the pound). The reason is that it will undermine Scotland during the political negotiations after a yes vote. The same with the English uni goers Parsely, that will depend on the EU negotiations.
:thup: Fair enough. Still though, as you say, Salmond should've been clearer if that's the case.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Matt on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 11:07:51 PM
I don't know why he won't say why he can't outline the plan B for currency(which will be pegging to the pound). The reason is that it will undermine Scotland during the political negotiations after a yes vote. The same with the English uni goers Parsely, that will depend on the EU negotiations.

The currency issue will go down as the biggest own goal of the Yes campaign. The bluff on reneging on all debts was called straight away, at which point the Yes camp should have given a clear and well-thought out rationale of how they would deal with not getting a currency union, pegging, euro, Scottish pound, whatever the preferred method may be, rather than the 'trust us, there'll be currency union' line which is so easily batted back by those in Westminster who would become dominant partner.

I agree that this may have been witheld to keep a strong hand after a yes vote, but with the opinion polls as they were (and are now) surely the most important thing is simply getting to a yes vote.

Anyone know if the debate be up on iPlayer?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Dave on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 11:09:03 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/zdc1TK5.png)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Tuesday 5 August 2014, 11:09:21 PM
It'll be shown on BBC Parliament tomorrow at 7pm, I believe.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Thursday 7 August 2014, 07:30:42 PM
I don't know why he won't say why he can't outline the plan B for currency(which will be pegging to the pound). The reason is that it will undermine Scotland during the political negotiations after a yes vote. The same with the English uni goers Parsely, that will depend on the EU negotiations.
:thup: Fair enough. Still though, as you say, Salmond should've been clearer if that's the case.

http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-release-an-independent-scotland-should-keep-the-pound-without-ruks-permission/

 :thup:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Matt on Thursday 7 August 2014, 11:14:32 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28691840

Sensible talking from within the Yes campaign there on the currency options, accepting that the first choice might not come to pass, accepting its ultimately outside of their control and making clear that there are alternatives that would allow the Scottish economy to broadly carry on as it is today.

Unfortunately Salmond has decided not only does he think he knows what it best for a sovereign Scotland, but he also wishes to impose on RUK, despite him having no authority over it. A currency union is out of step with the concept of independence- even in a formal union Scotland would have virtually no say in monetary policy. Scotland would be better sacking off the debt and pegging given the lack of influence in a Sterling zone.

We hear again, 'Salmond' is not 'Yes'. As much as that may be true, this is the TV-debate era. It's all about personalities and soundbites.

Someone should have a word in Salmond's shell. For all the plausible arguments in the Yes campaign (and to their credit, the shift of the No campaign away from the tales of doom gives credence to its strength), they are up against the status quo here, it only takes one weakness to give swing voters the spooks. The No campaign has been a shambles, the currency debate has been a gift from the gods for them.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Decky on Friday 8 August 2014, 10:09:16 AM
There really is no chance of the Yes vote winning is there? Certainly not if the opinion polls are an indication. Where does the SNP go from here? Another referendum in 15 years?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 8 August 2014, 10:22:24 AM
Ignoring polls, it almost feels like a forgone conclusion that Yes will win.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Decky on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:16:51 AM
Really? I have to say I'm shocked by that. I always thought the general consensus was that No was most likely and Yes had a slim chance with all the work to do.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:18:47 AM
I think Bluf's referring to how it feels. Yes have the minority but the louder voice. Most No voters aren't that bothered about protesting to retain the status quo if ya get me.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: RodneyCisse on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:24:52 AM
What will happen to Scottish student who wish to study for free at a university in England or Wales?

Will they only get free studies at Scottish universitys if the yes vote wins?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:26:09 AM
Is that not the case now anyway?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: RodneyCisse on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:29:33 AM
It might have changed but a few people I went to uni with at Newcastle didn't pay fees that were from Scotland.

(this was like 3 years ago)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:29:34 AM
Getting close now. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: TaylorJ_01 on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:33:04 AM
I still think it's slightly unfair - people are less likely to be bothered to vote simply to keep the current situation. You'd imagine ~75% of YES voters will vote, whereas only 50% of NO voters will bother. Probably doesn't happen like that but aye.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:36:35 AM
It might have changed but a few people I went to uni with at Newcastle didn't pay fees that were from Scotland.

(this was like 3 years ago)

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Education/UniversitiesColleges/16640/financial-help
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Troll on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:53:33 AM
What will happen to Scottish student who wish to study for free at a university in England or Wales?

Will they only get free studies at Scottish universitys if the yes vote wins?

They'd actually have to pay as international students, meaning they'd be charged much, much more (average yearly fee £12k, could be much higher depending on university/course).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 8 August 2014, 11:55:27 AM
on something like this, it should have been made illegal not to vote. With an option on the paper to spoil or none of the above.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Pip on Friday 8 August 2014, 12:14:42 PM
They should form their own currency. Having a currency union leaves them in no control of their monetary policy, which will be the life and death of their economy. If there's one thing you want to control in your country, it's monetary policy, ffs.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 8 August 2014, 12:28:14 PM
I think Bluf's referring to how it feels. Yes have the minority but the louder voice. Most No voters aren't that bothered about protesting to retain the status quo if ya get me.

I'm hoping this is the case.  The Yes campaign is very appealing when the context is "Us or the Tories?"  I still sway, but have firmly committed to No as I pretty much can't justify separation, especially in these times.  We aren't oppressed, we're not cheated.  And despite saying it myself at times, the argument of the we don't get the Government we vote for is one of the worst manipulations of the electorate I've had to deal with.  I must have forgotten the 13 years of Labour government.  It stinks of toys and prams.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 8 August 2014, 12:31:12 PM
I still think it's slightly unfair - people are less likely to be bothered to vote simply to keep the current situation. You'd imagine ~75% of YES voters will vote, whereas only 50% of NO voters will bother. Probably doesn't happen like that but aye.

It was pretty arrogant of the current government not to realise something had to change in the event of a no vote.  The Yes campaign is absolutely right when it says Westminster politics is corrupt, irrelevant to Scotland and out of date.  Even the measures now offered are not good enough. No-Scots campaign should have used this referendum to force deep reform and an elected second tier.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Friday 8 August 2014, 12:39:54 PM
This is why I don't understand your logic Bluf. If you believe that about Westminster, in the event of a NO vote do you think that there is a realistic opportunity to change the whole of the UK and Scotland for the better?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 8 August 2014, 01:04:12 PM
As a member of the UK, and left-leaning, we'll always try to change the system.  I don't believe in separation, and I'll never not believe the core of the Yes is a hateful lot.  People that want out just because of hatred, not corruption.  Separating 300 years after we joined in a Union that has been overwhelming successful, there's no real logic.  It is separation for sake of it.  I'm more sure there'll be any direct change, but if they vote is close, it'll be up for referendum again in the future.  If things never change, then I think we'd not be so lucky again.  There'd have to be change to keep it together.

What they don't get is that Scots are seen as a mature, intelligent people because they can keep petty differences to that side for the greater good.  Keep these differences to the football pitch.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 8 August 2014, 01:20:06 PM
woah. bluff.  I thought you were a solid "yes"
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: triggs on Friday 8 August 2014, 01:28:31 PM
As a member of the UK, and left-leaning, we'll always try to change the system.  I don't believe in separation, and I'll never not believe the core of the Yes is a hateful lot.  People that want out just because of hatred, not corruption.  Separating 300 years after we joined in a Union that has been overwhelming successful, there's no real logic.  It is separation for sake of it.  I'm more sure there'll be any direct change, but if they vote is close, it'll be up for referendum again in the future.  If things never change, then I think we'd not be so lucky again.  There'd have to be change to keep it together.

What they don't get is that Scots are seen as a mature, intelligent people because they can keep petty differences to that side for the greater good.  Keep these differences to the football pitch.
I understand your points but would you not like Scotland to be its own country and not just be a region in the UK? How much pride you'd get when "Flower of Scotland" is played when you won something at the Olympics and not "God save the Queen"
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: colinmk on Friday 8 August 2014, 01:30:16 PM
Fair enough Bluf. That's not the way I see it at all, coming from a similar left-leaning viewpoint. The UK needs change and this could be a catalyst for that. I think more local democracy is healthy and the success of smaller countries has proven that. It's healthy not to depend on other people too, there comes a time in everyone's life when independence is the way forward. The only hatred I have come across from within YES is for what Westminster is and I can't argue with that, I won't argue with your own experiences but they certainly aren't mine. It's about doing what's best for the people for me, and this is certainly a chance to do that.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Decky on Friday 8 August 2014, 01:32:35 PM
As a member of the UK, and left-leaning, we'll always try to change the system.  I don't believe in separation, and I'll never not believe the core of the Yes is a hateful lot.  People that want out just because of hatred, not corruption.  Separating 300 years after we joined in a Union that has been overwhelming successful, there's no real logic.  It is separation for sake of it.  I'm more sure there'll be any direct change, but if they vote is close, it'll be up for referendum again in the future.  If things never change, then I think we'd not be so lucky again.  There'd have to be change to keep it together.

What they don't get is that Scots are seen as a mature, intelligent people because they can keep petty differences to that side for the greater good.  Keep these differences to the football pitch.
I understand your points but would you not like Scotland to be its own country and not just be a region in the UK? How much pride you'd get when "Flower of Scotland" is played when you won something at the Olympics and not "God save the Queen"

You trying to say you wouldn't like the Irish national anthem to still be God Save The Queen? IMO it should have stayed. And we should have had a Union Flag on the top left of our tricolour just like Australia etc.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Friday 8 August 2014, 01:41:57 PM
What they don't get is that Scots are seen as a mature, intelligent people because they can keep petty differences to that side for the greater good.  Keep these differences to the football pitch.

:lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 8 August 2014, 02:19:58 PM
Care to dispute?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 8 August 2014, 02:20:45 PM
As a member of the UK, and left-leaning, we'll always try to change the system.  I don't believe in separation, and I'll never not believe the core of the Yes is a hateful lot.  People that want out just because of hatred, not corruption.  Separating 300 years after we joined in a Union that has been overwhelming successful, there's no real logic.  It is separation for sake of it.  I'm more sure there'll be any direct change, but if they vote is close, it'll be up for referendum again in the future.  If things never change, then I think we'd not be so lucky again.  There'd have to be change to keep it together.

What they don't get is that Scots are seen as a mature, intelligent people because they can keep petty differences to that side for the greater good.  Keep these differences to the football pitch.
I understand your points but would you not like Scotland to be its own country and not just be a region in the UK? How much pride you'd get when "Flower of Scotland" is played when you won something at the Olympics and not "God save the Queen"

Couldn't care less, I don't see myself as a Scot.  I see myself as British, although I don't have much pride in Britain's identity at the moment, it's still where my heart is.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 8 August 2014, 02:22:07 PM
As a member of the UK, and left-leaning, we'll always try to change the system.  I don't believe in separation, and I'll never not believe the core of the Yes is a hateful lot.  People that want out just because of hatred, not corruption.  Separating 300 years after we joined in a Union that has been overwhelming successful, there's no real logic.  It is separation for sake of it.  I'm more sure there'll be any direct change, but if they vote is close, it'll be up for referendum again in the future.  If things never change, then I think we'd not be so lucky again.  There'd have to be change to keep it together.

What they don't get is that Scots are seen as a mature, intelligent people because they can keep petty differences to that side for the greater good.  Keep these differences to the football pitch.
I understand your points but would you not like Scotland to be its own country and not just be a region in the UK? How much pride you'd get when "Flower of Scotland" is played when you won something at the Olympics and not "God save the Queen"

You trying to say you wouldn't like the Irish national anthem to still be God Save The Queen? IMO it should have stayed. And we should have had a Union Flag on the top left of our tricolour just like Australia etc.

Was this some sort of attempt at humour?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Friday 8 August 2014, 02:27:58 PM
Care to dispute?

well, erm, if the sentence refers purely to the yes/no debate then i can't really comment...if it's intended as a wider statement there's a lot wrong with it
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Decky on Friday 8 August 2014, 02:35:12 PM
As a member of the UK, and left-leaning, we'll always try to change the system.  I don't believe in separation, and I'll never not believe the core of the Yes is a hateful lot.  People that want out just because of hatred, not corruption.  Separating 300 years after we joined in a Union that has been overwhelming successful, there's no real logic.  It is separation for sake of it.  I'm more sure there'll be any direct change, but if they vote is close, it'll be up for referendum again in the future.  If things never change, then I think we'd not be so lucky again.  There'd have to be change to keep it together.

What they don't get is that Scots are seen as a mature, intelligent people because they can keep petty differences to that side for the greater good.  Keep these differences to the football pitch.
I understand your points but would you not like Scotland to be its own country and not just be a region in the UK? How much pride you'd get when "Flower of Scotland" is played when you won something at the Olympics and not "God save the Queen"

You trying to say you wouldn't like the Irish national anthem to still be God Save The Queen? IMO it should have stayed. And we should have had a Union Flag on the top left of our tricolour just like Australia etc.

Was this some sort of attempt at humour?

:lol: What's got your goat?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 8 August 2014, 02:35:59 PM
Nothing.  Just a completely pointless post to make. :dontknow:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Decky on Friday 8 August 2014, 02:37:04 PM
:lol: Ok man.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Ronaldo on Friday 8 August 2014, 02:37:48 PM
triggs at it again. :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: BlufPurdi on Friday 8 August 2014, 02:39:54 PM
Care to dispute?

well, erm, if the sentence refers purely to the yes/no debate then i can't really comment...if it's intended as a wider statement there's a lot wrong with it

I think most historians when they look at the act of the union, they see a nation taking a grown up approach to national matters.  Certainly from what I've read.  Might have been a bot over-the-top, but it's pretty much a direct quote. :lol:
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: triggs on Friday 8 August 2014, 03:26:44 PM
triggs at it again. :lol:
Nah just don't see why people who see themselves as Scottish would prefer to be a region in the UK rather than being an independent country. Now bluf said he doesn't see himself as Scottish so that's alright
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: neesy111 on Friday 8 August 2014, 03:34:04 PM
They should form their own currency. Having a currency union leaves them in no control of their monetary policy, which will be the life and death of their economy. If there's one thing you want to control in your country, it's monetary policy, ffs.

:thup:

Hence why the Euro is such a flawed currency.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Friday 8 August 2014, 03:36:45 PM
They should form their own currency. Having a currency union leaves them in no control of their monetary policy, which will be the life and death of their economy. If there's one thing you want to control in your country, it's monetary policy, ffs.

:thup:

Hence why the Euro is such a flawed currency.

jesus f***ing christ
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Dave on Friday 8 August 2014, 03:38:25 PM
McPound is probably already copyrighted.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 8 August 2014, 03:44:11 PM
triggs at it again. :lol:
Nah just don't see why people who see themselves as Scottish would prefer to be a region in the UK rather than being an independent country. Now bluf said he doesn't see himself as Scottish so that's alright

Scotland isn't just a region.  A region for example is the North East.  Scotland has its own Parliment, control and a fair bit of power for its self.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: mrmojorisin75 on Friday 8 August 2014, 03:45:52 PM
triggs at it again. :lol:
Nah just don't see why people who see themselves as Scottish would prefer to be a region in the UK rather than being an independent country. Now bluf said he doesn't see himself as Scottish so that's alright

Scotland isn't just a region.  A region for example is the North East.  Scotland has its own Parliment, control and a fair bit of power for its self.



think triggs is referring to an earlier post about being a regional autonomous state or some bollocks
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: Northerngimp on Friday 8 August 2014, 03:50:02 PM
Fairy muff.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence - What's your take on it?
Post by: neesy111 on Friday 8 August 2014, 04:34:42 PM