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Archives => Hall Of Fame => Topic started by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:10:15 PM

Title: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:10:15 PM
1921 Proposal

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1921proposal.jpg)

A proposal  by the architect Archibald Leitch. The plan fell through, although the Leazes End was covered and terracing was improved to Leitch's designs.


1964

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1964proposal.jpg)

Council Proposals for a multi purpose sports centre at St James' Park. As well as football the new development would also host Boxing, Badminton, Cycling, Athletics, Bowling and Table Tennis. Also featured would be an all weather pitch and a supporters complex. The club opposed the idea.


1967

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1967proposal1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1967proposal2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1967proposal3.jpg)

1967 proposals designed by the Heaton born Norwegian designer Ove Arup in which Newcastle United would share sporting facilities with the nearby Newcastle University. Capacity was proposed at around 63,000 - 31,000 seated and 32,000 standing. Also included in the plans was 2 gyms, 4 multi-purpose halls, 5-a-side football and Rugby fives courts, 13 squash courts, swimming, diving and learner pools and a supporters' club and restuarant.
The plan fell through when the club became reluctant at sharing facilities with the university.


1971

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1971proposal.jpg)

1971 plans for a 47,000 all seater stadium. The project fell through when the club couldn't afford the project. However, part of the project did go ahead, with the new East Stand completed in 1973.


1991

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1990proposal1.jpg)

The first of Sir John Hall's Magpie Group proposals for a new 45,000 all seater St James' Park.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1990proposal2.jpg)

The second proposal with parts of the ground on hydraulic sliding screens, allowing for a flexible capaity ranging from 30,000 to 80,000. There would also be a shopping mall, theatre, arena and office complex as part of the development.


Castle Leazes

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/castleleazes1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/castleleazes2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/castleleazes3.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/stjamescentre.jpg)


Proposals for a new 70,000 stadium at Castle Leazes just a few minutes walk from St James, in 1997. St James' itself was to be turned into a multi-purpose indoor arena. The scheme had huge support from Newcastle fans and the City Council, but the club eventually dropped the scheme and decided to expand St James'.

Cheers to Tom_nufc for the photos, still have them will add them to the gallery soon.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: BlufPurdi on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:15:57 PM
Very interesting.  I like the idea of Castle Leazes.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: johnnypd on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:18:10 PM
wish they'd built the castle leazes one.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:20:22 PM
Wait until they raise the Gallowgate and East Stand to level 7 man...
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:25:46 PM
I think not moving to Castle Leazes was tragic. People think tradition is important and are happy we stayed where we are, but personally I'm not bothered.

The location of SJP is the best in the country too ie in the city centre, but Castle Leazes while being a bit further away is still close enough.

My mate had views opposite to mine for years, even saying if we moved outside the city or too far from where we are, he would stop going. Which was bollox, he's never stopped going since he was a kid, so he never will now.

Anyway, we had a few discussions about this when it was a possibility a decade ago. I said if we had a spanking new ground, he wouldn't give a toss about the tradition and he would love a new stadium, with a 60,000 capacity, state of the art, round shape, the same height all the way round, maybe a with roof like the Millenium. He still said bollocks.

Now though, having gone to the Cup Semi Final last year, I suspect he's changed his mind. I would have loved us to play in a stadium like that every week.

I remember the plans for some of the photos from the 1960's. Rumour had it that McAlpine offered to build one of those stadiums for seat on the board, and/or x number of seats for life, or something. They were of course, turned down.


Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Unbelievable! on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:26:31 PM
Where was Castle Leazes (horrible name btw) to be built?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: johnnypd on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:27:32 PM
Wait until they raise the Gallowgate and East Stand to level 7 man...

that'll only happen if we've been in the champion's league for a few years imo. that would take us to around 61,000 or maybe a little more and i think that is about right for us.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: kirkwdavis2001 on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:30:01 PM
I know that some of the ground is grade 2 listed but is it possible to raise the gallowgate to level 7 like?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Wullie on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:30:22 PM
Where was Castle Leazes (horrible name btw) to be built?

Castle Leazes. :lol:

That's the name of the area mate.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:37:46 PM
I would have objected to a move away from SJP and while I can see the benefits that a new ground could have brought I'm very pleased we stuck with SJP and expanded in the end, even at the extra costs and logistical nightmares the regeneration produced. History and tradition is very important to a club like Newcastle so from that sense it was very important to stay but moreover from an economic city perspective it was a must. Relocation would have put a lot of firms out of business and saw a big decline in that area.

Taking 53,000 people away from the city center on match days would have made a huge negative impact on the econamy of what is a very small city center to start with, that is why St. James' Park remaining St. James' Park was so vital and why such an option should never be considered or at least targeted.

The club should try to take advantage of that and get the planning permission and funds to expand the stadium further (if we wanted to) because more people in the city center on a match day means more trade.

SJP acts like a magnet and is rightly a focal point of the city so the club shouldn't be burdened with financing it, the city should contribute too as they benefit as well.

It happens in other cities where firms pay a levy for maintenence on historical landmarks and such and so it should in Toon.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Unbelievable! on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:42:40 PM
Where was Castle Leazes (horrible name btw) to be built?

Castle Leazes. :lol:

That's the name of the area mate.

Hehe... Never heard of, but have only been living here for 2 years.. I assume it is located at the other side of Leazes Park?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:49:12 PM
I would have objected to a move away from SJP and while I can see the benefits that a new ground could have brought I'm very pleased we stuck with SJP and expanded in the end, even at the extra costs and logistical nightmares the regeneration produced. History and tradition is very important to a club like Newcastle so from that sense it was very important to stay but moreover from an economic city perspective it was a must. Relocation would have put a lot of firms out of business and saw a big decline in that area.

Taking 53,000 people away from the city center on match days would have made a huge negative impact on the econamy of what is a very small city center to start with, that is why St. James' Park remaining St. James' Park was so vital and why such an option should never be considered or at least targeted.

The club should try to take advantage of that and get the planning permission and funds to expand the stadium further (if we wanted to) because more people in the city center on a match day means more trade.

SJP acts like a magnet and is rightly a focal point of the city so the club shouldn't be burdened with financing it, the city should contribute too as they benefit as well.

It happens in other cities where firms pay a levy for maintenence on historical landmarks and such and so it should in Toon.

Fair enough, I understand all of that, some of it is what my mate said. However, it's progress. Some clubs have moved, some haven't. Arsenal are moving, Liverpool would like to, Man City have moved. The new location is only 5-10 minutes walk from where we are already. You soon adjust. The cost of it also would have been a lot cheaper than developing SJP.

ManU have not moved. If the expansion of Old Trafford had not been possible, then they would have moved I bet. And there is the biggest single reason for moving. You agree with me about our potential if we ever start to win trophies. With the ground we have, we would never be able to expand it accordingly and seriously attempt to match ManU. Arsenal now have a bigger ground than us, and so would Liverpool if they move.

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Wullie on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 09:49:29 PM
Where was Castle Leazes (horrible name btw) to be built?

Castle Leazes. :lol:

That's the name of the area mate.

Hehe... Never heard of, but have only been living here for 2 years.. I assume it is located at the other side of Leazes Park?

Yeah, it's where the student flats are beyond Spital Tongues, near the BBC TV Centre.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Nobody on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:00:48 PM
Wait until they raise the Gallowgate and East Stand to level 7 man...
Are there plans to do that?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:11:42 PM
I would have objected to a move away from SJP and while I can see the benefits that a new ground could have brought I'm very pleased we stuck with SJP and expanded in the end, even at the extra costs and logistical nightmares the regeneration produced. History and tradition is very important to a club like Newcastle so from that sense it was very important to stay but moreover from an economic city perspective it was a must. Relocation would have put a lot of firms out of business and saw a big decline in that area.

Taking 53,000 people away from the city center on match days would have made a huge negative impact on the econamy of what is a very small city center to start with, that is why St. James' Park remaining St. James' Park was so vital and why such an option should never be considered or at least targeted.

The club should try to take advantage of that and get the planning permission and funds to expand the stadium further (if we wanted to) because more people in the city center on a match day means more trade.

SJP acts like a magnet and is rightly a focal point of the city so the club shouldn't be burdened with financing it, the city should contribute too as they benefit as well.

It happens in other cities where firms pay a levy for maintenence on historical landmarks and such and so it should in Toon.

Fair enough, I understand all of that, some of it is what my mate said. However, it's progress. Some clubs have moved, some haven't. Arsenal are moving, Liverpool would like to, Man City have moved. The new location is only 5-10 minutes walk from where we are already. You soon adjust. The cost of it also would have been a lot cheaper than developing SJP.

ManU have not moved. If the expansion of Old Trafford had not been possible, then they would have moved I bet. And there is the biggest single reason for moving. You agree with me about our potential if we ever start to win trophies. With the ground we have, we would never be able to expand it accordingly and seriously attempt to match ManU. Arsenal now have a bigger ground than us, and so would Liverpool if they move.



I understand exactly what you're saying and I agree with you in many ways, but SJP being bang smack in the city center, it's location perfect for inbound and outband transport and other amenities and facilities, acts like a cycle that the club feeds on. SJP on match day brings in the punters who spend money in the city center, this creates jobs and wealth which trickles back into the club in the shape of shirts and so on.

Being pushed back to Castle Leazes, or further out from the city center would make a big difference to the city's weekend economy.

That is one of the reasons why this club is so unique and of much more importance to the area than say Man Utd for example or Liverpool.

Regarding the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool, their stadium plans obviously raise a question of how an we further compete with them and we will have to find ways to compete.

One way and perhaps the only way is further expansion. I still believe we could fill an 80,000 seater SJP for League games if pricing and demographic targeting was spot on, I also believe in the notion of where there is a will there is a way so I think we could expand to that type of capacity if we pushed for it. Obviously that would cost a lot of money and would involve some restructuring of surrounding land but this is what I mean about how the club should take advantage or use the importance of SJP to the City as a tool to push through planning and funding.

Imagine SJP raised level, all four stands? I seriously doubt there would be a more impressive stadium in world football, bigger, costlier and maybe more advanced aye, but such a towering monument bang smack in the center would take some topping in my view.

One for the future I know but when the last expansion was drawn up, plans for further expansion on top of that were also drawn up, they do exist. From what I've heard it involves the Gallowgate End and a floating tier for the East Stand. Although I've never seen those plans so it's all speculation but knowing they exist, even if it's just a drawing on a bit of paper, is very exciting.

In my view why build from scratch when you have the foundations right there already built?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:13:08 PM
Wait until they raise the Gallowgate and East Stand to level 7 man...
Are there plans to do that?

On paper, I believe they do exist, although for all we know it could just be a mock example of how the current version would look, raised and symetrical.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Ally on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:15:12 PM
The expansion is unlikely to happen in the near future though due to the listed buildings behind the East Stand. Bloody students. ;)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:18:06 PM
They could be incorporated into the stadium or a floating tier could hang over them, maybe?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:20:49 PM
BTW for those saying forget history or tradition, maybe these pics may change your mind...

Ground Development Work - 1899

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1899develop1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1899develop2.jpg)

Levelling the pitch to reduce the slope and constructing a small timber stand.


1905 - 1930

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1929.jpg)

Extensive redevelopment of St James' Park was completed in 1905, with larger terracing and a new main stand, which at the time was state of the art, containing club offices and boardroom, changing rooms, a players' billiards room and even a swimming pool. Capacity increased to over 60,000 although no limits were placed on the stadium and crowds were often above this.

This picture was taken in 1929, shortly before the Leazes End was given a roof.


1930s

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1930s.jpg)

St James' Park during the 1930s, staging an Athletics meeting, which it did regularly just before, during and after World War 2. The Leazes End is now covered.


Strawberry Place/Gallowgate Entrance - 1950s

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/gallowgate1950s.jpg)


1958

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1958.jpg)

St James' in 1958 shortly after the installation of floodlights.


1960s

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/60s.jpg)

St James' pictured during the 1960s.


1970s

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1970s.jpg)

St James' during the 1970s, with the East Stand, completed in 1973.


Demolishing the Leazes End - 1978

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/endofleazes78.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/leazes78.jpg)

In 1978, the large Leazes End was demolsihed and reduced. The hardcore supporters were transfered to the Gallowgate End, whilst the new smaller Leazes End predominantly housed the away support.


Early 80s

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/early80s.jpg)

St James' pictured during the early 1980s.


Demolishing the West Stand - 1987

In 1987 the 82 year old West Stand was demolished to make way for a new main stand.

Milburn Stand - 1988

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/milburn88no1.jpg)

The new West stand nears completion.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/milburn88no2.jpg)

The completed new stand in 1988. It was named the Milburn Stand after Jackie Milburn who died as the stand was being finished.


Barrack Road Gates

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/barrackrdgatesearly90s.jpg)

The Barrack Road gates in the early 90s. The building behind the gates is the old club shop. Behind that is the Milburn Stand.


Early 90s

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/early90s.jpg)

St James' pictured in the early 1990s.


Building the Leazes

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/buildingleazes.jpg)

Construction on the new stand at the Leazes End begins towards the end of the 1992/93 season, which saw Newcastle promoted to the Premier League.


Building the Gallowgate

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/buildinggallowgate1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/buildinggallowgate2.jpg)

With the Leazes completed,  a replica stand was built at the Gallowgate End in 1994.


Ground Expansion

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/builingnewsjp.jpg)

During 1999/2000, St James' underwent a massive expansion on the Milburn and Leazes to take capacity from 36,000 to 52,000.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:25:37 PM
From this

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1899develop2.jpg)

To this

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/st_james_park.jpg)

Who would have thought?

Why not from that to this?

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp2010.jpg)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Ally on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:29:22 PM
That really is f***ing awesome.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Optimistic Nut on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:29:45 PM
Believe it or not, we'd still have these photos and memories if we stay at St James' or not. ;)

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Nobody on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:31:02 PM
What is that last picture of? Model of extended SJP?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Optimistic Nut on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:36:37 PM
From this

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1899develop2.jpg)

To this

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/st_james_park.jpg)

Who would have thought?

Why not from that to this?

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp2010.jpg)

a) The Metro
b) Housing
c) Money
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:37:37 PM
Believe it or not, we'd still have these photos and memories if we stay at St James' or not. ;)



But would we be able to marvel at SJP from within knowing that this monument before our eyes has risen from wood, smell that sense of history, hear the ghosts of teams, players and feats past?

When I'm at SJP today I get an overriding sense of history and tradition, I can feel it, on some nights, always nights, I swear you can feel something in the air, a presence or something.

Ever walked down Barrack road in the wee hours of a winter's morning with mist, drizzle and fog clinging to the air? You can hear the crowd of eras gone by and that smell, I just can't describe.

Nah, you can keep your purpose built plastic boxes with no sense of feeling and atmopshere.

I'll take wor stadium any day, regardless of capacity or disrepair.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:39:02 PM
From this

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1899develop2.jpg)

To this

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/st_james_park.jpg)

Who would have thought?

Why not from that to this?

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp2010.jpg)

a) The Metro
b) Housing
c) Money

Didn't prevent previous expansions.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: ianovthetoon on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:39:35 PM
I remember reading something in the Journal about a year ago saying that consultation work was being done on the feasibility of extending the Gallowgate and building the stand over the road to the same height as level 7, just means the east stand would look totally dwarfed, either that or Freddys getting the A Team in to blow the houses up facing it so we can extend that as well tongue.gif tongue.gif
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Optimistic Nut on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:40:42 PM
From this

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1899develop2.jpg)

To this

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/st_james_park.jpg)

Who would have thought?

Why not from that to this?

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp2010.jpg)

a) The Metro
b) Housing
c) Money

Didn't prevent previous expansions.

Because previous expansions never affected the Metro or the housing. If we'd moved stadium late 90s when we made the proposals to move to Leazes Park, that would have been it. One off payment for the stadium (at a time we could afford it), with no need to ever extend.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Nobody on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:42:22 PM
Believe it or not, we'd still have these photos and memories if we stay at St James' or not. ;)



But would we be able to marvel at SJP from within knowing that this monument before our eyes has risen from wood, smell that sense of history, hear the ghosts of teams, players and feats past?

When I'm at SJP today I get an overriding sense of history and tradition, I can feel it, on some nights, always nights, I swear you can feel something in the air, a presence or something.

Ever walked down Barrack road in the wee hours of a winter's morning with mist, drizzle and fog clinging to the air? You can hear the crowd of eras gone by and that smell, I just can't describe.

Nah, you can keep your purpose built plastic boxes with no sense of feeling and atmopshere.

I'll take wor stadium any day, regardless of capacity or disrepair.
Agreed! SJP is magnificent and a part of the clubs history! Would be a real shame to move away.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:43:34 PM
Last year, FS said the club were looking into expanding the Gallowgate, out of the blue as well. I think the quotes originally come from a speech he gave at some function and was first printed in a magazine, eventually winding up in the papers as second hand copy a few weeks later on what must have been a slow news day.

They are on this site somewhere.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: johnnypd on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:44:21 PM
a horseshoe shape stadium would look excellent, an english take on the old american baseball + am football arenas. ohio state uni have a famous stadium with three huge sides and one tiny :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/throwaway/gallowgate.jpg)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Optimistic Nut on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:44:52 PM
Believe it or not, we'd still have these photos and memories if we stay at St James' or not. ;)



But would we be able to marvel at SJP from within knowing that this monument before our eyes has risen from wood, smell that sense of history, hear the ghosts of teams, players and feats past?

When I'm at SJP today I get an overriding sense of history and tradition, I can feel it, on some nights, always nights, I swear you can feel something in the air, a presence or something.

Ever walked down Barrack road in the wee hours of a winter's morning with mist, drizzle and fog clinging to the air? You can hear the crowd of eras gone by and that smell, I just can't describe.

Nah, you can keep your purpose built plastic boxes with no sense of feeling and atmopshere.

I'll take wor stadium any day, regardless of capacity or disrepair.
Agreed! SJP is magnificent and a part of the clubs history! Would be a real shame to move away.

Yes...history. Imagine our chances of success in the future that we'd have had with an extra 15,000+ a season...you're talking an extra £8-10m a year.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Ally on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:45:11 PM
Makes the East Stand look like a bus shelter!
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: sunderlandsuck on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:45:33 PM
did they not plan to do what they did to the milburn and leezes to the east stand and the gallowgate when they expanded it to 52,000? and also planned to built a btadium on the town moor?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Wullie on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:45:46 PM
If push came to shove, I'd hope they could just fill the Metro station in, it's no use anyway. The housing behind the East Stand would be more of a problem.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Nobody on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:47:42 PM
a horseshoe shape stadium would look excellent, an english take on the old american baseball + am football arenas. ohio state uni have a famous stadium with three huge sides and one tiny :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/throwaway/gallowgate.jpg)
That looks mint!
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Yorkie on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:49:05 PM
The move to Castle Leazes at the time would have been the right thing - and it was absolutely stupid that the council and owners wouldn't allow it. St James' at the time, albeit a smashing little stadium, was far too small back then - and i can remember cinemas opening to show live games to the public when they couldn't get tickets.

But now, looking back and now we've got a 52,000+ stadium, i'm really glad we didn't move - regardless of how amazing the Castle Leazes project looked. I'm a traditionalist - and love St James' Park.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: johnnypd on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:50:53 PM
there were also preliminary plans drawn up to move to the Gateshead Stadium site or next to it, and Newburn Riverside (there's a business park there now). both terrible ideas.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:52:45 PM
From this

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/supergeordie/sjp/1899develop2.jpg)

To this

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/st_james_park.jpg)

Who would have thought?

Why not from that to this?

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp2010.jpg)

a) The Metro
b) Housing
c) Money

Didn't prevent previous expansions.

Because previous expansions never affected the Metro or the housing. If we'd moved stadium late 90s when we made the proposals to move to Leazes Park, that would have been it. One off payment for the stadium (at a time we could afford it), with no need to ever extend.

They did, the expansion impacted all four areas of land around the circumference of SJP. Maybe not to the extent further development would demand, but the only  real conceivable objection to further expansion would be money.

The Gallowgate could be raised to level 7, the bulk or mass of the Leazes could be replicated at that end without collapsing the Metro, although the road behind it would have to go, or maybe built over and incorporated in some kind of tunel or drive through.

The East Stand is a different kettle of fish altogether as the margin for expansion is very restriced. Now that is a toughy.

We'd have to look at other stadiums that incorporate housing or streets.

Where's Sparks when we need him ;)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Matt on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:56:19 PM
did they not plan to do what they did to the milburn and leezes to the east stand and the gallowgate when they expanded it to 52,000? and also planned to built a btadium on the town moor?

I recall a poster making the point that planning permission was granted for eventual capacity raises on the three sides but developed two. I'd have thought there would be some form of expiry on that, though. The plans would be publicly available as with any such application.

Metro- an excuse dreamed up by Freddie Fletcher towards the end of his reign. It's really not an issue for an imaginsative engineer. Just remember what's sitting on top of the metro line as it runs from haymarket-monument-central!

Leazes Terrace on the other hand is a major issue. Not an insummountable one, but an expensive one for sure. We can't just do away with it and a L7-size East Stand would run right down the middle of the existing block. The best the club could hope to do is free up enough land to move the entire building brick by brick, preserving the aspects protected by the listing (and you just have to hope that doesn't include the foundations or internal layouts!) Facades have been protected with entirely new buildings built behind it (such as the edge of Monument Mall IIRC?).
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 10:57:00 PM
The move to Castle Leazes at the time would have been the right thing - and it was absolutely stupid that the council and owners wouldn't allow it. St James' at the time, albeit a smashing little stadium, was far too small back then - and i can remember cinemas opening to show live games to the public when they couldn't get tickets.

But now, looking back and now we've got a 52,000+ stadium, i'm really glad we didn't move - regardless of how amazing the Castle Leazes project looked. I'm a traditionalist - and love St James' Park.

Because they knew what kind of negative impact it would have on the city center economy.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: johnnypd on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:00:36 PM
there was never a planning application made for the Gallowgate when we expanded the Milburn and Leazes. i did read that the architects drew up plans in reserve tho. it is definitely possible to extend that stand, the only problem i can think is viability, the other extensions were paid for in part by executive seats, and i can't see that there's much room to increase the number of posh seats.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:05:25 PM
Looking at the East Stand, one of the options could be to cut out the front paddocks of all four stands, raise the pitch and pull in the East Stand to provide extra space at the back of that stand to pad it out and upwards. It is doable.

So is moving Leazes Terrarce a few feet foward, they did that kind of thing in Boston was it? It might have been Brooklyn.

Believe it or not, they can move whole houses forward without knocking a brik down, each house sits on a structure that rests on the earth if you like, careful management can move that structure onto a new prepared foundation.

That would be very very expensive however and not feasable funds wise I'd imagine.

Another option could be to build Leazes Terrarce into the East Stand, with the Terrace becoming the frontal facia of that stand like Shearer's Bar is the facia of the Gallowgate - the entrance if you like. The club could buy the Terrace and incoporate them into the stand.

Any other ideas?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: ianovthetoon on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:08:30 PM
I suppose its not unreasonable to simply build up, a structure of 2 or 3 extra smaller tiers, a totally different design to the cantilever more like a tower block kind of structure, at least the roof would be the same height all the way round!!
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:11:04 PM
I suppose its not unreasonable to simply build up, a structure of 2 or 3 extra smaller tiers, a totally different design to the cantilever more like a tower block kind of structure, at least the roof would be the same height all the way round!!

Aye, it doesn't have to be symetrical. In fact if each stand looked different, I think that would add even more to the design. I know SJP at current gets called ugly but I think the lopsidedness gives it character and presence.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:30:00 PM
Looking at the East Stand, one of the options could be to cut out the front paddocks of all four stands, raise the pitch and pull in the East Stand to provide extra space at the back of that stand to pad it out and upwards. It is doable.

So is moving Leazes Terrarce a few feet foward, they did that kind of thing in Boston was it? It might have been Brooklyn.

Believe it or not, they can move whole houses forward without knocking a brik down, each house sits on a structure that rests on the earth if you like, careful management can move that structure onto a new prepared foundation.

That would be very very expensive however and not feasable funds wise I'd imagine.

Another option could be to build Leazes Terrarce into the East Stand, with the Terrace becoming the frontal facia of that stand like Shearer's Bar is the facia of the Gallowgate - the entrance if you like. The club could buy the Terrace and incoporate them into the stand.

Any other ideas?

pay some shady character to blow it up, like they should have done decades ago

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:34:08 PM
Believe it or not, we'd still have these photos and memories if we stay at St James' or not. ;)



But would we be able to marvel at SJP from within knowing that this monument before our eyes has risen from wood, smell that sense of history, hear the ghosts of teams, players and feats past?

When I'm at SJP today I get an overriding sense of history and tradition, I can feel it, on some nights, always nights, I swear you can feel something in the air, a presence or something.

Ever walked down Barrack road in the wee hours of a winter's morning with mist, drizzle and fog clinging to the air? You can hear the crowd of eras gone by and that smell, I just can't describe.

Nah, you can keep your purpose built plastic boxes with no sense of feeling and atmopshere.

I'll take wor stadium any day, regardless of capacity or disrepair.
Agreed! SJP is magnificent and a part of the clubs history! Would be a real shame to move away.

Yes...history. Imagine our chances of success in the future that we'd have had with an extra 15,000+ a season...you're talking an extra £8-10m a year.

much more than that is the "capture" of more supporters who may be inclined to move elsewhere rather than possibly be outcast.
Plus the spin offs. Sorry to disagree with people, but I think putting tradition before ambition and progress is extremely small minded and unambitious.

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Matt on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:36:33 PM
Believe it or not, they can move whole houses forward without knocking a brik down, each house sits on a structure that rests on the earth if you like, careful management can move that structure onto a new prepared foundation.

That would be very very expensive however and not feasable funds wise I'd imagine.

Another option could be to build Leazes Terrarce into the East Stand, with the Terrace becoming the frontal facia of that stand like Shearer's Bar is the facia of the Gallowgate - the entrance if you like. The club could buy the Terrace and incoporate them into the stand.

There are companies that specialise in moving buildings brick by brick. A few buildings were moved to Beamish in this way.

As for incorporating it, I don't see how it would fit in.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Yorkie on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:37:59 PM
The move to Castle Leazes at the time would have been the right thing - and it was absolutely stupid that the council and owners wouldn't allow it. St James' at the time, albeit a smashing little stadium, was far too small back then - and i can remember cinemas opening to show live games to the public when they couldn't get tickets.

But now, looking back and now we've got a 52,000+ stadium, i'm really glad we didn't move - regardless of how amazing the Castle Leazes project looked. I'm a traditionalist - and love St James' Park.

Because they knew what kind of negative impact it would have on the city center economy.

Just wanted to come back to this.

Now i'm sure you know more about this than i do; after all - i haven't lived in Newcastle for any more than a month in any single period. But i would be willing to bet that Newcastle United FC is the city's biggest seller.

The major bulk of people who come to watch games are local - but i've got a friend just down the road from me who's got a season ticket. And i/they live a good two hours or so from Newcastle. I predict about 10% of the home support is coming from somewhere else in the country. And, when you consider the away support - 2/3000 every game - that's more people coming into the area.

More people coming into the area, eating in 'our' restaurants, buying our souvenirs, staying in our hotels, travelling on 'our' Metro. Lots and lots of money coming into the area - and i can't see how that can be bad for the economy. Increase the capacity of Newcastle's stadium by 35,000 (that's how big the extension would have been in 1997), and that's more money into the area.

Like i say, you probably know more than it about it than i do, and i'm only looking from it from one (uneducated) point of view.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: smoggeordie on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:40:14 PM
Wasn't there a problem with the foundations in the gallowgate? Like we can't extend it because the ground around the end isn't strong enough?



As for incorporating it, I don't see how it would fit in.

for some reason I just though of one gadgie moving EVERY single brick in SJP over the summer and when everyone came back for the new season they were shellshocked :lol:

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: madras on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:41:27 PM
stadium development that never happened.................................

reinstatement of the 10minute flag
bogs that expanded so we could all go at half time
the seat in front of me being empty all the time so i could rest my feet on his chair
some sort of decoration/toon mural on the staircases inside SJP
some sort of decoration/toon mural on the cold grey exterior of SJP,we should use that space to shout loud and proud who we are,remember the corrugated iron stand with "NEWCASTLE UNITED" all the way down it?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Matt on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:43:02 PM
Wasn't there a problem with the foundations in the gallowgate? Like we can't extend it because the ground around the end isn't strong enough?

*cough*

Quote from: Matt
Metro- an excuse dreamed up by Freddie Fletcher towards the end of his reign. It's really not an issue for an imaginsative engineer. Just remember what's sitting on top of the metro line as it runs from haymarket-monument-central!
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: smoggeordie on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:44:20 PM
Wasn't there a problem with the foundations in the gallowgate? Like we can't extend it because the ground around the end isn't strong enough?

*cough*

Quote from: Matt
Metro- an excuse dreamed up by Freddie Fletcher towards the end of his reign. It's really not an issue for an imaginsative engineer. Just remember what's sitting on top of the metro line as it runs from haymarket-monument-central!

Think I can be arsed reading EVERY post? ;)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:45:50 PM
The move to Castle Leazes at the time would have been the right thing - and it was absolutely stupid that the council and owners wouldn't allow it. St James' at the time, albeit a smashing little stadium, was far too small back then - and i can remember cinemas opening to show live games to the public when they couldn't get tickets.

But now, looking back and now we've got a 52,000+ stadium, i'm really glad we didn't move - regardless of how amazing the Castle Leazes project looked. I'm a traditionalist - and love St James' Park.

Because they knew what kind of negative impact it would have on the city center economy.

the main reason why it was thrown out was due to objections made regarding the landscape, the historical impact of Leazes Park and the notion that it was a "beauty spot". The decision was made by the Heritage Department to turn the project down, due to mass canvassing etc from the Greenpeace etc type loonies, including a few mackems I would guess, it had nothing to do - officially - with the impact on the economy of the city on match days.

However, that IS a major consideration. And so, if it had been up to me, I would have told the council that they will give permission to build that ground at Castle Leazes, or I would move the club lock, stock and barrel out of the city centre to somewhere where all the trade would be lost, estimated at 8m quid, which is what I read somewhere.

I reckon they would have s*** their pants and gave permission when they got the message that Sir John etc meant what they said.

And now, we would be better off for it. Progress.

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Optimistic Nut on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:47:24 PM
Wasn't there a problem with the foundations in the gallowgate? Like we can't extend it because the ground around the end isn't strong enough?

*cough*

Quote from: Matt
Metro- an excuse dreamed up by Freddie Fletcher towards the end of his reign. It's really not an issue for an imaginsative engineer. Just remember what's sitting on top of the metro line as it runs from haymarket-monument-central!

True, but those buildings were there before the Metro. I'd imagine it would be much harder to build something the size we want the Gallowgate to be, on top of the Metro.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Wullie on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:48:01 PM
To be honest, Castle Leazes - SJP through the park is what, a five, maybe ten minute walk? Hardly moving out of the centre, the trade loss would be minimal.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:49:00 PM
To be honest, Castle Leazes - SJP through the park is what, a five, maybe ten minute walk? Hardly moving out of the centre, the trade loss would be minimal.

Congratulations ....  :winking:

As I've said all through the thread .....

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: madras on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:49:10 PM
Wasn't there a problem with the foundations in the gallowgate? Like we can't extend it because the ground around the end isn't strong enough?

*cough*

Quote from: Matt
Metro- an excuse dreamed up by Freddie Fletcher towards the end of his reign. It's really not an issue for an imaginsative engineer. Just remember what's sitting on top of the metro line as it runs from haymarket-monument-central!
isnt blackett street on top of it........................anyway the story always goes that it would be more expensive,prohibitivly,not impossible,just not easy to claw the money back.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Matt on Wednesday 5 July 2006, 11:57:16 PM
True, but those buildings were there before the Metro. I'd imagine it would be much harder to build something the size we want the Gallowgate to be, on top of the Metro.

Actually that would make it harder- as it involves tunnelling under existing foundations. This would be working foundations around the known weakness (the Metro tunnel).

What was crucially expensive about building 'over the top' is that you are massively hampered by the fact 50,000 people would be turning up once or twice a week and you have to turn it from a construction site to a stadium and back again on a weekly basis. On the flip side, we got ticket revenue against this extra cost.

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:07:45 AM
The move to Castle Leazes at the time would have been the right thing - and it was absolutely stupid that the council and owners wouldn't allow it. St James' at the time, albeit a smashing little stadium, was far too small back then - and i can remember cinemas opening to show live games to the public when they couldn't get tickets.

But now, looking back and now we've got a 52,000+ stadium, i'm really glad we didn't move - regardless of how amazing the Castle Leazes project looked. I'm a traditionalist - and love St James' Park.

Because they knew what kind of negative impact it would have on the city center economy.

Just wanted to come back to this.

Now i'm sure you know more about this than i do; after all - i haven't lived in Newcastle for any more than a month in any single period. But i would be willing to bet that Newcastle United FC is the city's biggest seller.

The major bulk of people who come to watch games are local - but i've got a friend just down the road from me who's got a season ticket. And i/they live a good two hours or so from Newcastle. I predict about 10% of the home support is coming from somewhere else in the country. And, when you consider the away support - 2/3000 every game - that's more people coming into the area.

More people coming into the area, eating in 'our' restaurants, buying our souvenirs, staying in our hotels, travelling on 'our' Metro. Lots and lots of money coming into the area - and i can't see how that can be bad for the economy. Increase the capacity of Newcastle's stadium by 35,000 (that's how big the extension would have been in 1997), and that's more money into the area.

Like i say, you probably know more than it about it than i do, and i'm only looking from it from one (uneducated) point of view.

Good post and I didn't quite look at it from that angle, an angle which obviously would bring revenue into the area, but would the money earned that way equal or better the money earned the current way?

We can't underestimate other factors that having SJP in the city center benefits the city center either in an ecomomical sense. By being so predominant and so visable, it often makes up peoples minds for them. I've done it myself, went into Toon with no intention of popping in to by a shirt, but the stadium drew me to spending my money anyway.

I've went and bought tickets at the Box Office and suddenly got a bit peckish so grabbed a bite to eat around the corner from SJP or got a bit thirsty and popped into a bar for a drink/bite to eat.

Many fans also consider the match and shopping in Toon like killing two birds with one stone, by being so central, it's easier to chuck in a bit of shopping ahead of the match than two trips, one for the match on day one, one for shopping on day 2. Marketing shows when people are in that frame of kill two birds with one stone, they spend more.

Think of a supermarket ploy of "buy two tins of beans, get an extra free". Now the punter thinks they're getting a bargain but in reality they are being coerced into spending more due to the kill two birds with one stone factor.

Now take the presence of SJP away from the city and you could take away those type of factors and by considering those factors you begin to see and realise just how important NUFC is to this city, more so I'd say, than any other city in the UK and indeed abroad.

My mate is a manager at one of the well known fast food outlets in Toon. On match day, they doube their normal takings.

A mate who used to work in HMV also claims the same. I've worked in the city center on match day and I've seen with my own two eyes the economic benefits that are produced from the club's sheer predominance and visability as a result of being a central figure.

Furthermore, the more money the city generates, the more jobs, the more wealth, the more we have to spend on our club in whatever form that may be, tickets, shirts or a pint in Shearer's.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:11:11 AM
BTW I'm not talking specifically about the Castle Leazes plans, I'm talking about an out of town type relocation ala the mackems, boro and other club's and what impact such a move would make on the city itself.

I still believe however even a move to Castle Leazes would have a significant negative impact and would alter the usual routines of thousands of fans. It may not be an impact  to the tune of millions, but in economics every penny counts.

There are numerous case studies that have shown how moving a business from one end of a street to another for example, changes things signficiantly on all manner of levels.

Location, location, location as they say.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Invicta_Toon on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:33:21 AM
I can't believe some of this...Castle Leazes was a brilliant idea. How the hell can moving the stadium 3 pitch lengths into the park possibly affect the city economy? I walk that just to get to my turnstile on the other side of the ground from where I usually walk down

I never understand it when people say our stadium looks fantastic when looking at it as a whole. I thinks its terrible not being symmetrical, almost a joke really. All the publicity shots and TV shots all hide this glaring fact

I mean symmetry is just natural, its why ugly blokes don't get laid (scientific fact)

Whoever was responsible for it not going ahead should be shot.

And I seriously don't see how, what 100? residents of Leazes terrace can dictate over 52,000 people in a democratic age. b******s. We should buy up each flat as the occupier moves/dies, then lets see how the consultation would go...
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:34:22 AM
BTW I'm not talking specifically about the Castle Leazes plans, I'm talking about an out of town type relocation ala the mackems, boro and other club's and what impact such a move would make on the city itself.

I still believe however even a move to Castle Leazes would have a significant negative impact and would alter the usual routines of thousands of fans. It may not be an impact  to the tune of millions, but in economics every penny counts.

There are numerous case studies that have shown how moving a business from one end of a street to another for example, changes things signficiantly on all manner of levels.

Location, location, location as they say.

Disagree. At the end of the day, we support the football club, not the economy of the city centre. And it is no good shouting about not matching spending power of Manu, Arsenal (Now), and Liverpool (maybe) when people are backing moves to limit the clubs financial potential for the sake of a 5 minute walk, a last pint in the pub, or a quick sarnie after queueing for a ticket. You would adjust.

I find it quite amazing that most of the people who don't have the foresight in this area are probably the same people who expect the club to have a bottomless pit of money, and at the same time, don't realise they are backing the decision (under pressure or not) of the Halls and Shepherd to settle for 2nd best and a stadium of limited capacity, while at the same time criticising them for everything else they do. This area, is in my opinion, their biggest blunder, and their only major one, apart from the appointment of Souness which can however be corrected in time. They should have told the council that they want this land, or they would take the club out of the city completely, and called their bluff.

The next 100 years of Newcastle United revolved around this new stadium, our potential on a long term basis would be immeasurably higher if we had moved.

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:36:06 AM
I can't believe some of this...Castle Leazes was a brilliant idea. How the hell can moving the stadium 3 pitch lengths into the park possibly affect the city economy? I walk that just to get to my turnstile on the other side of the ground from where I usually walk down

I never understand it when people say our stadium looks fantastic when looking at it as a whole. I thinks its terrible not being symmetrical, almost a joke really. All the publicity shots and TV shots all hide this glaring fact

I mean symmetry is just natural, its why ugly blokes don't get laid (scientific fact)

Whoever was responsible for it not going ahead should be shot.


And I seriously don't see how, what 100? residents of Leazes terrace can dictate over 52,000 people in a democratic age. b******s. We should buy up each flat as the occupier moves/dies, then lets see how the consultation would go...

Abso-lootley.

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Matt on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:37:41 AM
Nothing to do with the residents of Leazes Terrace- it's Grade I listed and protected by law.

The Terrace is/was owned by the University, not sure of the current status of ownership.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: BottledDog on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:55:11 AM
Nothing to do with the residents of Leazes Terrace- it's Grade I listed and protected by law.

The Terrace is/was owned by the University, not sure of the current status of ownership.

Yup, pretty sure it still is.

Where was Castle Leazes (horrible name btw) to be built?

Castle Leazes. :lol:

That's the name of the area mate.

Hehe... Never heard of, but have only been living here for 2 years.. I assume it is located at the other side of Leazes Park?

Yeah, it's where the student flats are beyond Spital Tongues, near the BBC TV Centre.

Speaking of funny names, back in the day the BBC monstrosity was known as the 'pink palace'. Don't think it was the official title mind. :lol:


Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: johnnypd on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:57:39 AM
half of leazes terrace is owned by the university, and half by private residents who own the flats. but like Matt says it is Grade I listed. to put that into context, Grey Street is only grade II listed, so it would be easier to demolish that than this building.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: BottledDog on Thursday 6 July 2006, 01:03:46 AM
True, never going to happen.

That said, you would think that they would appreciate upping sticks and getting the whole lot moved to somewhere with a nice view like ummm... Fenham. Must live like vampires there under the shadow of the east stand. bluebiggrin.gif
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: CPL on Thursday 6 July 2006, 01:04:45 AM
Always fascinating reading threads like these, maybe moving away was the right option but i guess we'll never know. Anyway lets start improving things on the field before other things ;)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Invicta_Toon on Thursday 6 July 2006, 01:07:23 AM
70,000 seats shouting FREDDIE OUT

now that would be a sight
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: merlin on Thursday 6 July 2006, 03:58:46 AM
As a former member of the Magpie group , here are a couple of observations about Stadium plans ;

1.In 1988 , John Hall wanted a 40,000 seater stadium - he showed us the plans at the first meeting in May
of that year. Several members of the group , including myself , objected on the grounds that it would not be big enough if the takeover was successful , and the club prospered. He said that football crowds were falling , and so-called experts had advised him that 40,000 was enough.
We stuck out for our views , and he said he would look at it again IF things went as we said.
As you all know , the club DID prosper under SJH & KK , and I'll never forget SJH's face when we played
Grimsby in the promotion season and he came in & said 'there are 7000 people queueing to get in....!!'
This was AFTER kick-off.....
Needless to say , the 'I told you so' phrase was quickly churned out..!

After the club's successful first few seasons in the Premiership , SJH realised that the club had to capitalise on its huge fan-base by developing the stadium, but restrictions in the development affecting Leazes Terrace meant that there was a limit as to what could be done.
Sir John then arranged the feasibility study for Castle Leazes(a fantastic project with sliding roof that would have given us the biggest stadium in the Premiership).The project also allowed for landscaping pf the existing park , used then mainly as a dog walking area(!).
As soon as the project went up to planning by Council , it hit difficulties - a Protest Group , led by one Dolly Potter(perhaps Dotty Poller is a better name..!)who organised a petition against the plan. This was even , reputedly , taken to Wearside to allow Mackems to sign in objection ; I don't know if this was correct , but there were certainly S/land fans on Tyneside who signed.
Eventually , the 'Brains dept' better known as John Prescott , overruled the plan, though I suspect the Council had some bearing on it. SJH was prepared to move the Stadium to Gateshead , get all the Planning Grants available there(thus reducing the cost to the club), and - this is crucial - Bus wives etc to the MetroCentre whilst men at the game.....
As Newcastle City Council had an interest in Eldon Square at that time , this was not good news for them
but fans in general opposed the idea(at least , a vocal number did). I wasn't 100% on the idea of moving , but then , Manure are based in Trafford Park......

Unfortunately , SJH had to step back from day to day club affairs , & Freddie Fletcher was put in charge of this.He regularly had Council members as guests on Match days , but what effect this had one must judge for oneself...

Either way , the project was dropped , and at the present time , I suggest that the Club has more important priorities - like how to sort-out the team....
Nevertheless , a great opportunity lost , and you can only speculate where NUFC would have been if the club had won the Premiership in 1996 , and then built that fantasic stadium.
History would have been a great deal different , but as Brian Clough used to say 'If your Aunt had B---s, she'd be your Uncle...!'
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Decky on Thursday 6 July 2006, 04:08:45 AM
(http://www.nufc-forum.com/possible_future_SJP.jpg)

different angle of a level 7 gallowgate
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 09:17:00 AM
As a former member of the Magpie group , here are a couple of observations about Stadium plans ;

1.In 1988 , John Hall wanted a 40,000 seater stadium - he showed us the plans at the first meeting in May
of that year. Several members of the group , including myself , objected on the grounds that it would not be big enough if the takeover was successful , and the club prospered. He said that football crowds were falling , and so-called experts had advised him that 40,000 was enough.
We stuck out for our views , and he said he would look at it again IF things went as we said.
As you all know , the club DID prosper under SJH & KK , and I'll never forget SJH's face when we played
Grimsby in the promotion season and he came in & said 'there are 7000 people queueing to get in....!!'
This was AFTER kick-off.....
Needless to say , the 'I told you so' phrase was quickly churned out..!

After the club's successful first few seasons in the Premiership , SJH realised that the club had to capitalise on its huge fan-base by developing the stadium, but restrictions in the development affecting Leazes Terrace meant that there was a limit as to what could be done.
Sir John then arranged the feasibility study for Castle Leazes(a fantastic project with sliding roof that would have given us the biggest stadium in the Premiership).The project also allowed for landscaping pf the existing park , used then mainly as a dog walking area(!).
As soon as the project went up to planning by Council , it hit difficulties - a Protest Group , led by one Dolly Potter(perhaps Dotty Poller is a better name..!)who organised a petition against the plan. This was even , reputedly , taken to Wearside to allow Mackems to sign in objection ; I don't know if this was correct , but there were certainly S/land fans on Tyneside who signed.
Eventually , the 'Brains dept' better known as John Prescott , overruled the plan, though I suspect the Council had some bearing on it. SJH was prepared to move the Stadium to Gateshead , get all the Planning Grants available there(thus reducing the cost to the club), and - this is crucial - Bus wives etc to the MetroCentre whilst men at the game.....
As Newcastle City Council had an interest in Eldon Square at that time , this was not good news for them
but fans in general opposed the idea(at least , a vocal number did). I wasn't 100% on the idea of moving , but then , Manure are based in Trafford Park......

Unfortunately , SJH had to step back from day to day club affairs , & Freddie Fletcher was put in charge of this.He regularly had Council members as guests on Match days , but what effect this had one must judge for oneself...

Either way , the project was dropped , and at the present time , I suggest that the Club has more important priorities - like how to sort-out the team....
Nevertheless , a great opportunity lost , and you can only speculate where NUFC would have been if the club had won the Premiership in 1996 , and then built that fantasic stadium.
History would have been a great deal different , but as Brian Clough used to say 'If your Aunt had B---s, she'd be your Uncle...!'

Agreed mate. This is the biggest blow to Newcastle's future - ever. Bollocks to "tradition", you make it.

Can anyone on here who was at the Cup Semi Final not say they wish we played in a stadium like that ?

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: 80 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 09:22:29 AM
Can anyone on here who was at the Cup Semi Final not say they wish we played in a stadium like that ?



Am I the only person in the country who thinks the interior of the Millenium Stadium is s****?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Morph on Thursday 6 July 2006, 09:41:59 AM
Can anyone on here who was at the Cup Semi Final not say they wish we played in a stadium like that ?



Am I the only person in the country who thinks the interior of the Millenium Stadium is s****?

me too.  i dislike its cheap look.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Dan on Thursday 6 July 2006, 11:06:22 AM
The move to Castle Leazes at the time would have been the right thing - and it was absolutely stupid that the council and owners wouldn't allow it. St James' at the time, albeit a smashing little stadium, was far too small back then - and i can remember cinemas opening to show live games to the public when they couldn't get tickets.

But now, looking back and now we've got a 52,000+ stadium, i'm really glad we didn't move - regardless of how amazing the Castle Leazes project looked. I'm a traditionalist - and love St James' Park.

Because they knew what kind of negative impact it would have on the city center economy.

that isn't the reason why the idea was rejected. an extra 30,00 seats at the football every week would have done wonders for the local economy.

it was the dog walkers and conservationists that kicked up all the fuss.

bloody annoying when a minority can stop a project that the majority of people in newcastle would support
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Sima on Thursday 6 July 2006, 11:34:54 AM
Don't see why people are getting a hard-on about a massive stadium.  We wouldn't even fill it ffs.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Morph on Thursday 6 July 2006, 11:40:33 AM
Don't see why people are getting a hard-on about a massive stadium.  We wouldn't even fill it ffs.

i beg to differ.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: ianovthetoon on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:14:28 PM
Realistically, I think any further development of the ground will be at least in part paid for by renaming rights on the stadium, so perhaps the price we might have to pay for not moving from St James would be to lose the name
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Atticus on Thursday 6 July 2006, 12:18:19 PM
I have to agree with Sima at the moment, albeit in a less arsey way.

We're struggling to sell season tickets as it is. It's going to take some resurgence in order to realistically create grounds for further expansion, I'm talking Champions League football here at the very least, or even a trophy. Right now further expansion is a pipe-dream, a lovely pipe-dream at that.

The photos of a massive SJP excite me as well, unfortunately the team is going to need to dramatically improve in order for this to become a realistic prospect. Like NE5 has been saying, we need to wait for the next "wave" to come along and jump on it without a second thought this time. Too many times progress has passed us by, be it in the eras he mentioned, or more recently when Bobby Robson/whoever felt bringing in Lee Bowyer would be enough squad improvement for a Summer.

Next time an opportunity to cement our standing in the upper echelon of football comes along, we cannot afford to miss it.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Dan on Thursday 6 July 2006, 01:18:40 PM
Don't see why people are getting a hard-on about a massive stadium.  We wouldn't even fill it ffs.

i beg to differ.

i reckon a successful nufc playing in europe every season could fill a stadium of over 60k.

extending the gallowgate end would take us to about that capacity. no need to push beyond that in the short term considering the expense involved in addressing the leazes terrace issue.


Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Dan on Thursday 6 July 2006, 01:20:14 PM
Realistically, I think any further development of the ground will be at least in part paid for by renaming rights on the stadium, so perhaps the price we might have to pay for not moving from St James would be to lose the name

good idea.

i could live with that. and while we may gain a corporate name, the fans would call always call it st james.

it's like the emirates stadium. every gooner i know is calling it ashburton grove
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Thursday 6 July 2006, 01:23:58 PM
I think even at current, we could fill an extra 10,000 seats for League games if pricing and demographic targeting was spot on.

Keegan's side could have drawn an extra 30-40,000 IMO.

Lets not forget when football was far more cheaper and accessible, we used to pull in 60K plus crowds. I've read reports of 80,000 plus for derby games. The fanbase is there, it's the finances and motivation that would need worked on. A family man may not be able to take his kids to the match at 20 quid a pop, at 5 quid a pop however...
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Thursday 6 July 2006, 01:34:19 PM
Disagree. At the end of the day, we support the football club, not the economy of the city centre. And it is no good shouting about not matching spending power of Manu, Arsenal (Now), and Liverpool (maybe) when people are backing moves to limit the clubs financial potential for the sake of a 5 minute walk, a last pint in the pub, or a quick sarnie after queueing for a ticket. You would adjust.

I find it quite amazing that most of the people who don't have the foresight in this area are probably the same people who expect the club to have a bottomless pit of money, and at the same time, don't realise they are backing the decision (under pressure or not) of the Halls and Shepherd to settle for 2nd best and a stadium of limited capacity, while at the same time criticising them for everything else they do. This area, is in my opinion, their biggest blunder, and their only major one, apart from the appointment of Souness which can however be corrected in time. They should have told the council that they want this land, or they would take the club out of the city completely, and called their bluff.

The next 100 years of Newcastle United revolved around this new stadium, our potential on a long term basis would be immeasurably higher if we had moved.



I believe supporting the club is also supporting the economy and value my city just the same as my club, and many feel the same. Although I understand your point.

BTW I wasn't so much talking about the Castle Leazes plans in particuluar, I'm taking a wider view of a full-on relocation ala the mackems, Boro, Man City and soon to be Liverpool at el. Such a move would have a big impact on the city center, in a negative way IMO.

As for competing, well you don't need the biggest of stadium's to be the best, as Arsenal have proved. A good manager and a good board is of far more importance. Lets try to keep our opinions of the management away from this thread eh? ;)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: marko1892 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 01:39:08 PM
At moment i too dont believe we could fill a massive stadium that has been mooted on here. could we fill 60k for every league game at present? I dont think so. As is said, we are struggling to sell season tickets and the 'waiting list' is now none existant.

The last thing we want is a 60k stadium with patches of empty seats everywhere. Like them jokers down the road.

I too wish we had moved but it wasnt to be, but you have to understand that failing the move something had to be done about SJP, it simply was not big enough.

I think SJP looks fantastic personally. its different something other than these modern lego set stadiums that are popping up everywhere.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: johnnypd on Thursday 6 July 2006, 01:54:19 PM
think we'd almost fill 60k even this upcoming season if the extra seats were filled with sensibly priced tickets. out of all premiership clubs we have the highest percentage of seats filled per match (other than man utd whose stats are a bit odd cos of the expansion near the end of the season), so we're probably the team most able to expand. our percentage of filled seats is 99.6% across the entire season, arsenal's is only 99.1% and they're expecting to increase the amount of fans at games by 20,000 + each game next season! liverpool and everton are two other clubs looking for stadium moves to massively increase capacity and they only fill 97.5% and 91.5% of seats respectively.

my guess is if we had expanded to 61,000 for this season we'd probably get around 58,000 for most games, pushing up to capacity for any league games vs man utd, sunderland (if we played them) etc. give us a bit of success, or get us into the champion's league on a regular basis, and we'd probably fill more than 61,000.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Thursday 6 July 2006, 02:46:49 PM
think we'd almost fill 60k even this upcoming season if the extra seats were filled with sensibly priced tickets. out of all premiership clubs we have the highest percentage of seats filled per match (other than man utd whose stats are a bit odd cos of the expansion near the end of the season), so we're probably the team most able to expand. our percentage of filled seats is 99.6% across the entire season, arsenal's is only 99.1% and they're expecting to increase the amount of fans at games by 20,000 + each game next season! liverpool and everton are two other clubs looking for stadium moves to massively increase capacity and they only fill 97.5% and 91.5% of seats respectively.

my guess is if we had expanded to 61,000 for this season we'd probably get around 58,000 for most games, pushing up to capacity for any league games vs man utd, sunderland (if we played them) etc. give us a bit of success, or get us into the champion's league on a regular basis, and we'd probably fill more than 61,000.

My thoughts exactly.

The waiting list may well be gone but there are still thousands of people who, if they could afford it and circumstances were favourable to their own, would love to go to the match, whole streets and areas that over the years have been priced out of going. Metro Radio used to pull in 150K listeners from the North East for their Toon coverage, you can't tell me that the club couldn't attract at least 20,000 of those with demographic targeting and smart pricing...

For some Cup games, at least 30% of those attending are non season ticket holders, at least 5% are first time attendees.

Like already stated, the fan base is there, it's being able to afford to go and being able to take time out to go that is the issue for many thousands.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: johnnypd on Thursday 6 July 2006, 03:05:25 PM
think we'd almost fill 60k even this upcoming season if the extra seats were filled with sensibly priced tickets. out of all premiership clubs we have the highest percentage of seats filled per match (other than man utd whose stats are a bit odd cos of the expansion near the end of the season), so we're probably the team most able to expand. our percentage of filled seats is 99.6% across the entire season, arsenal's is only 99.1% and they're expecting to increase the amount of fans at games by 20,000 + each game next season! liverpool and everton are two other clubs looking for stadium moves to massively increase capacity and they only fill 97.5% and 91.5% of seats respectively.

my guess is if we had expanded to 61,000 for this season we'd probably get around 58,000 for most games, pushing up to capacity for any league games vs man utd, sunderland (if we played them) etc. give us a bit of success, or get us into the champion's league on a regular basis, and we'd probably fill more than 61,000.

My thoughts exactly.

The waiting list may well be gone but there are still thousands of people who, if they could afford it and circumstances were favourable to their own, would love to go to the match, whole streets and areas that over the years have been priced out of going. Metro Radio used to pull in 150K listeners from the North East for their Toon coverage, you can't tell me that the club couldn't attract at least 20,000 of those with demographic targeting and smart pricing...

For some Cup games, at least 30% of those attending are non season ticket holders, at least 5% are first time attendees.

Like already stated, the fan base is there, it's being able to afford to go and being able to take time out to go that is the issue for many thousands.

true, part of the trouble is motivating fans to spend the money on a season ticket, if we don't have enough success or if tickets are judged to be too expensive then people will stay away. the fact is the overwhelming majority of toon fans in the north-east don't attend matches on a regular basis.  give us the same sort of success as liverpool and we'd have a huge upturn in crowds imo.

there's also, like you say, huge swathes of tyneside priced out of going and somewhat disenfranchised from the whole experience of being a newcastle fan- large parts of the west end for instance. the poor parts of blaydon suffer similarly, at school it was the upper-working, lower-middle types who are the biggest newcastle fans, the kids who were the worst off were more apathetic and i got the feeling they felt a bit excluded from the whole process. not sure how to remedy this though without making some provision for cheap seats and i doubt we can afford to do that.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Thursday 6 July 2006, 03:20:33 PM
think we'd almost fill 60k even this upcoming season if the extra seats were filled with sensibly priced tickets. out of all premiership clubs we have the highest percentage of seats filled per match (other than man utd whose stats are a bit odd cos of the expansion near the end of the season), so we're probably the team most able to expand. our percentage of filled seats is 99.6% across the entire season, arsenal's is only 99.1% and they're expecting to increase the amount of fans at games by 20,000 + each game next season! liverpool and everton are two other clubs looking for stadium moves to massively increase capacity and they only fill 97.5% and 91.5% of seats respectively.

my guess is if we had expanded to 61,000 for this season we'd probably get around 58,000 for most games, pushing up to capacity for any league games vs man utd, sunderland (if we played them) etc. give us a bit of success, or get us into the champion's league on a regular basis, and we'd probably fill more than 61,000.

My thoughts exactly.

The waiting list may well be gone but there are still thousands of people who, if they could afford it and circumstances were favourable to their own, would love to go to the match, whole streets and areas that over the years have been priced out of going. Metro Radio used to pull in 150K listeners from the North East for their Toon coverage, you can't tell me that the club couldn't attract at least 20,000 of those with demographic targeting and smart pricing...

For some Cup games, at least 30% of those attending are non season ticket holders, at least 5% are first time attendees.

Like already stated, the fan base is there, it's being able to afford to go and being able to take time out to go that is the issue for many thousands.

true, part of the trouble is motivating fans to spend the money on a season ticket, if we don't have enough success or if tickets are judged to be too expensive then people will stay away. the fact is the overwhelming majority of toon fans in the north-east don't attend matches on a regular basis. give us the same sort of success as liverpool and we'd have a huge upturn in crowds imo.

Again, agree fully. What stops many 5-6 games a season fans is finances, work or other commitments and even location as a good few live outside the city walls if you like and live in areas like Blyth, Durham etc.

If we were perennial trophy winners, you couldn't put a cap on the number of seats we could sell.

I'm sure intelligent ticket policies and pricing would entice fans, like for example 'part-time' season tickets for those who can't always attend a match and if they can't make the match, they inform the club and the club puts the seat on general sale. Just an example...

Some fans share tickets, I'm a member of a ST share scheme with a few mates myself. I'm sure that can be (it probably already is) replicated many a time over.

If the club introduced singing ends too and charge an extra fiver or something for that (I'd pay) they could then knock off a fiver on cheaper tickets to appeal to those on low income or those who previously couldn't afford it.

The club could sell packaged seats/blocks to schools at cheap rates given schools a chance to take classes to the match, aternating matches for different classes. They could target run down areas and work with the local council or youth project centers. The government will grant these organisation grants for such schemes. When I was a bairn a youth club I was a member of done a deal with Flamingo Land and we'd all go there once or twice a year as part of a group, they got grants for that.

There are endless options we could exercise or look into.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Thursday 6 July 2006, 03:32:23 PM
there's also, like you say, huge swathes of tyneside priced out of going and somewhat disenfranchised from the whole experience of being a newcastle fan- large parts of the west end for instance. the poor parts of blaydon suffer similarly, at school it was the upper-working, lower-middle types who are the biggest newcastle fans, the kids who were the worst off were more apathetic and i got the feeling they felt a bit excluded from the whole process. not sure how to remedy this though without making some provision for cheap seats and i doubt we can afford to do that.

Aye that is a problem. The whole idea of increasing capacity is to increase revenue so smart pricing seats will have to be compensated for in other areas.  Maybe the board could offset that by given up their dividend... ;)

I agree with you on areas like the West End (my own area) slowly but surely losing an affinity with the club, a bond if you like due to years of being priced out and isolated. I see it every day, you can feel it. That could see to it that a whole generation becomes lost to the club and a club likes our can't afford to cut off parts of the community it may well one day need to stay in business as quite a large portion of today's fans are tourist fans, who will buy a ST for 2-3 seasons and then move on for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Rob W on Thursday 6 July 2006, 04:25:22 PM
The 1921 ground palns look great - they would have saved thousands from premature death from the rain and wind..................
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Rob W on Thursday 6 July 2006, 04:30:53 PM
Leazes Terrace on the other hand is a major issue. Not an insummountable one, but an expensive one for sure. We can't just do away with it and a L7-size East Stand would run right down the middle of the existing block. The best the club could hope to do is free up enough land to move the entire building brick by brick, preserving the aspects protected by the listing (and you just have to hope that doesn't include the foundations or internal layouts!) Facades have been protected with entirely new buildings built behind it (such as the edge of Monument Mall IIRC?)."

If we had an Abramovitch he pay to move Leazes Terrace somewhere (Shielfield?) were it would be better seen and  then offer teh Uni space in teh "wall" of the stand for accomodation/offices   - no big deal if you have teh ££££££
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Nobby on Thursday 6 July 2006, 04:34:26 PM
MGM Mirage
http://prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/11-19-2003/0002061486&EDATE=
Quote
LAS VEGAS, Nov. 19 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- MGM MIRAGE (NYSE: MGG), the most respected U.S. based hotel and gaming company, and Newcastle United PLC today announced a 50:50 joint venture agreement to build a major new mixed-use development on a prime site above St. James' Metro Station, which is in the heart of Newcastle's city centre and adjacent to Newcastle United's football stadium.


Super-Casino
http://www.newcastle.gov.uk/press.nsf/latestbyid/48E363822A2B94188025717800428A9F?opendocument
Quote
Newcastle’s bid for a super casino and regional conference centre took a major step forward today.
The Casino Advisory Panel confirmed that Newcastle City Council’s submission will go through to the next round which will decide where the UK’s first super casino will be built. The city is now one of eight left in the running for a super casino and the only remaining city in the North East.


The Department for Media, Culture and Sport will not decide on a location for a super-casino until 2007
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 04:57:51 PM
Can anyone on here who was at the Cup Semi Final not say they wish we played in a stadium like that ?


Am I the only person in the country who thinks the interior of the Millenium Stadium is s****?

Do you ?

I think the atmosphere, and the closeness to the pitch is superb. 
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Nobby on Thursday 6 July 2006, 05:30:58 PM
I wasn't mate, your comment in your previous post about the Keegan era is what I had in mind. One day we will have a good manager again like Keegan was, and we need to capitalise on it more and make it count permanently.

I want to match and catch ManU on a long term basis. We won't do that with this stadium, and the prohibitive cost of expanding it makes the task more difficult.





chase the dream, not the opposition
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 05:32:41 PM
I wasn't mate, your comment in your previous post about the Keegan era is what I had in mind. One day we will have a good manager again like Keegan was, and we need to capitalise on it more and make it count permanently.

I want to match and catch ManU on a long term basis. We won't do that with this stadium, and the prohibitive cost of expanding it makes the task more difficult.


chase the dream, not the opposition


We saw during the Keegan years, what a lot of us have always known, that it is possible.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: 80 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 05:52:39 PM
Can anyone on here who was at the Cup Semi Final not say they wish we played in a stadium like that ?


Am I the only person in the country who thinks the interior of the Millenium Stadium is s****?

Do you ?

I think the atmosphere, and the closeness to the pitch is superb. 

May be partially shaped by the fact I was sitting almost as high in the stadium as you can get. Amongst other things, the gradient was ludicrous. Might be alright for Italian-style stand-still-holding-a-flare support, but as it was, I was almost pleased I didn't have to celebrate a goal. My foot covered almost my whole area front to back, and was level with the scalp of whoever was sitting in front of me. If I'd jumped up REALLY enthusiastically and fallen forwards, I would've covered at least four or five rows.

Aside from that, I just felt the place was quite souless and built within budget. It didn't add more than it should've to the support or the spectacle, if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 05:56:38 PM
Can anyone on here who was at the Cup Semi Final not say they wish we played in a stadium like that ?


Am I the only person in the country who thinks the interior of the Millenium Stadium is s****?

Do you ?

I think the atmosphere, and the closeness to the pitch is superb. 

May be partially shaped by the fact I was sitting almost as high in the stadium as you can get. Amongst other things, the gradient was ludicrous. Might be alright for Italian-style stand-still-holding-a-flare support, but as it was, I was almost pleased I didn't have to celebrate a goal. My foot covered almost my whole area front to back, and was level with the scalp of whoever was sitting in front of me. If I'd jumped up REALLY enthusiastically and fallen forwards, I would've covered at least four or five rows.

Aside from that, I just felt the place was quite souless and built within budget. It didn't add more than it should've to the support or the spectacle, if you know what I mean.

I think I know what you mean, I was low down, which isn't ideal for the view either, but I liked it all the same. I have been in the top tier of Old Trafford and wasn't too happy up there, it Cardiff is similar. It actually bounces .....



Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Invicta_Toon on Thursday 6 July 2006, 07:21:20 PM
we get the 99.9% or whatever figure because whenever any ST holder can't go, their ticket is almost always taken by another fan. This has got to show there could be much bigger crowds. If not ST's, then flexible pricing of games according to opposition. Not giving it all over to ST's would also allow sensible management of empty sections should there be any (keep out of sight of the cameras / cover with banners / anlarge away section buffer zone)

Don't agree with the other clubs systems of how they try to always fill a ground - you have to pay for a s**** game to see a good game

On the renaming issue, I wouldn't mind going to 'The Rock' to see the game
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Thursday 6 July 2006, 07:52:20 PM
we get the 99.9% or whatever figure because whenever any ST holder can't go, their ticket is almost always taken by another fan. This has got to show there could be much bigger crowds. If not ST's, then flexible pricing of games according to opposition. Not giving it all over to ST's would also allow sensible management of empty sections should there be any (keep out of sight of the cameras / cover with banners / anlarge away section buffer zone)

Don't agree with the other clubs systems of how they try to always fill a ground - you have to pay for a s**** game to see a good game

On the renaming issue, I wouldn't mind going to 'The Rock' to see the game

So - for the benefit of everyone, I'll spell this out. If we had moved to a new stadium at Castle Leazes for instance, and were playing there now, along with the cost having been cheaper than developing sJP, we would be filling a bigger stadium, despite "massive underachievement and having a s**** board with a s**** chairman".

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Invicta_Toon on Thursday 6 July 2006, 08:16:19 PM
we get the 99.9% or whatever figure because whenever any ST holder can't go, their ticket is almost always taken by another fan. This has got to show there could be much bigger crowds. If not ST's, then flexible pricing of games according to opposition. Not giving it all over to ST's would also allow sensible management of empty sections should there be any (keep out of sight of the cameras / cover with banners / anlarge away section buffer zone)

Don't agree with the other clubs systems of how they try to always fill a ground - you have to pay for a s**** game to see a good game

On the renaming issue, I wouldn't mind going to 'The Rock' to see the game

So - for the benefit of everyone, I'll spell this out. If we had moved to a new stadium at Castle Leazes for instance, and were playing there now, along with the cost having been cheaper than developing sJP, we would be filling a bigger stadium, despite "massive underachievement and having a s**** board with a s**** chairman".



Aye cos were Geordies, I'll turn up to watch paint dry me

Castle Leazes was arguably still during the 'good era' of SJH
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: sunderlandsuck on Thursday 6 July 2006, 08:54:47 PM
im sorry, but people doubt we could fill a 60k stadium, we filled our stadium (the majority of the time) last season adn tbh i would prefer to watch paint dry than souness's team, but i still whent
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Exiled in Texas on Thursday 6 July 2006, 11:26:11 PM
NUFC is too far down the path now to turn back.

Building a new Stadium to double your capacity is one thing but to write off all your current expansion investments, and build new just to add 40% is not good business.

Most likely a horseshoe shaped Level 7 expanding over Gallowgate is the only thing left for them to do.  If the Leazes terrace is Grade I listed, then I doubt they would ever get permission to "move it" anywhere.

What capacity increase do you think that a Level 7 over the Gallowgate would bring....an additional 5 or 10 thousand seats? As much as 15K extra seats?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: ianovthetoon on Thursday 6 July 2006, 11:38:28 PM
Realistically you've got to be looking at around 8-10 extra seats in a redevelopment of the Gallowgate, if these were priced affordably for playing the "lesser" names of the premiership there is no reason at all why they won't sell. And if the redevelopment was funded by a sponsorship of the ground, every penny is profit so it makes sound financial sense
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Rob W on Friday 7 July 2006, 01:38:09 PM
Lets concetrate on WINNING sommat first before spending more ££££ on the ground
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Tom_NUFC on Friday 7 July 2006, 03:38:36 PM
Just a couple of things over the Castle Leazes.

The Council were NOT against the proposal. They were supportive (they were sh!tting themselves at the prospect of NUFC going to Gateshead, which I agree is unthinkable). Support for the stadium was passed by the Council. What happened was you had NUFC and NUFC supporters who had a petition of over 100,000 signitures in favour of the move. Then there was the NIMBYs led by that nutty old women. Anytime they got any press they pretended to be NUFC supporters. I remember seeing them on Northumberland Street once collecting signatures with a sign saying "Up the Lads, but not at Castle Leazes" ('Up the Lads?'????????, f*ck off! I thought). Anyway, they got about 10-20,000. Despite the huge difference in favour of Castle Leazes and the support of the Council, it went to a government enquiry and they backed the NIMBYs.

Nowt to do with the Council, they supported it.

Alternative options to Castle Leazes were;

Gateshead, a site behind where the Baltic is now.

Newburn. Strong opposition because the proposed site was Newburn Country Park. Not many fans liked the idea of trecking out to Newburn either.

Benfield Road. Opposite Benfield School on the Heaton/Walkergate border. It was the site of Walkergate Hospital and a few business units which is now Benfield Business Park. As someone who's from the bottom end of Heaton and went to Benfield, this was my prefered alternative. It would be a 5-10 minute walk from home, and the club would be returning to its east end roots etc. On the other hand, I couldn't help but think the site was a bit too small for a 60,00+ thousand stadium and adequate facilities. The traffic round mine would probably be a nightmare as well.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Friday 7 July 2006, 03:51:03 PM
The way I see it, if redeveloping SJP could be done, then do it even if it ends up costing you more. We did that and one day when all four sides are level, we'll be thankful they did.

I think the eventual decision to stick with SJP has a lot more to do with other planning and development surrounding the stadium, some of it perhaps club initiatives, which are as of yet not fully known, than a few signatures or planning permission blocking the moves.

The plans for St. James' Park stretch way beyond a mere football stadium in my opinion and I suspect we'll see some pretty interesting developments in the coming years based in and around the location of the stadium. Already talks of Casinos, Cinemas etc. exist.

In time it will prove the best decision the club has ever made. Location, location, location. Being bang smack in the city center is as good as it gets.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Invicta_Toon on Friday 7 July 2006, 03:52:52 PM
well I would have loved it to be Newburn, but for purely selfish reasons
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Friday 7 July 2006, 04:09:22 PM
The way I see it, if redeveloping SJP could be done, then do it even if it ends up costing you more. We did that and one day when all four sides are level, we'll be thankful they did.

I think the eventual decision to stick with SJP has a lot more to do with other planning and development surrounding the stadium, some of it perhaps club initiatives, which are as of yet not fully known, than a few signatures or planning permission blocking the moves.

The plans for St. James' Park stretch way beyond a mere football stadium in my opinion and I suspect we'll see some pretty interesting developments in the coming years based in and around the location of the stadium. Already talks of Casinos, Cinemas etc. exist.

In time it will prove the best decision the club has ever made. Location, location, location. Being bang smack in the city center is as good as it gets.

When  ? If ever ? Just how do you propose those listed buildings will be replaced ? At what price ?

Point is, we could be playing in front of 70,000 fans NOW.

You have just started a thread showing in detail how many decades it has taken to improve the ground to what it is now, so don't hold your breath.

In time, it will prove to be the biggest opportunity missed, is my take on it.

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: bobjonson on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:17:40 PM
I barely remember the 74 cup final, after that only the odd game and us always getting beat! Until early 80's and somehow we started to put a team together, under Cox, that actually had players in it that I had heard of, final piece being KK. It was also the first time I can remember NUFC being talked about on telly, other than MOTD. We had some cracking players and some good young'ns coming through, and when KK left he said in interviews how he hoped the board would back Cox and get in more quality players as well as keeping the best we already had.

But as we all know the board had other ideas, Cox saw the writing on the wall and was soon away, world class players were leaving and we had hasbeens, 3rd div players and kids in instead.

The Waddles, Beardsleys, Gazzas, and Roeder's to some extent would not be being sold if they were here now, no, they would be the backbone of our team.

Just my two pennies worth :winking:
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:19:46 PM
Back on topic...

Does anyone have any ideas as to how we could expand St. James' Park further other than the ideas already posted? Any engineers or architects in the house? Are there any members who worked on the redevelopment? Is there anyone who works for the council or planning permission department?

Also, a challenge for our Photoshop experts, anyone fancy mocking up some examples of how SJP would look filled in so to speak from different angles?

We have tons of pics to work with here: http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4

I might have a gan myself ;)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Mick on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:27:17 PM
Back on topic...

Does anyone have any ideas as to how we could expand St. James' Park further other than the ideas already posted? Any engineers or architects in the house? Are there any members who worked on the redevelopment? Is there anyone who works for the council or planning permission department?

Also, a challenge for our Photoshop experts, anyone fancy mocking up some examples of how SJP would look filled in so to speak from different angles?

We have tons of pics to work with here: http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4

I might have a gan myself ;)

I heard that the Gallowgate was planned, I'm not sure about the East Stand though.

Even if it's not possible at this time it doesn't stop things from developing in the future when technology moves on as it always does.  We probably do have the technology but costs would be too prohibitive at this time.

I would think that the only way we can go with the East Stand is up, I doubt it could go further over towards Leazes Terrace so that would probably give a problem with a lot of weight being spread over such a short area.

That's just a guess.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:30:18 PM
Could we push the pitch down to add extra seats to the front rows of the 4 stands to increase capacity that way? We all look up and see that way as the way to extra seats but how about downwards?

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: bobjonson on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:32:12 PM
From what I can remember the Gallowgate end was built with the option to add level 7 to it, I also remember talk about a possible hotel casino thingy being built above the metro and joining onto the ground so strawberry place would be under cover. Possibly this may happen if the casino deal is given to us??
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:35:49 PM
From what I can remember the Gallowgate end was built with the option to add level 7 to it, I also remember talk about a possible hotel casino thingy being built above the metro and joining onto the ground so strawberry place would be under cover. Possibly this may happen if the casino deal is given to us??

That's the one, that seems to be the most talked about idea.

BTW would Shearer's bar and the new megastore effect anything? A mate of mine reckons we can rule out any future development of the Gallowgate because of Shearer's bar, claiming they've spent too much on it to move it or change things. Not so sure myself like.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: bobjonson on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:41:03 PM
From what I can remember the Gallowgate end was built with the option to add level 7 to it, I also remember talk about a possible hotel casino thingy being built above the metro and joining onto the ground so strawberry place would be under cover. Possibly this may happen if the casino deal is given to us??

That's the one, that seems to be the most talked about idea.

BTW would Shearer's bar and the new megastore effect anything? A mate of mine reckons we can rule out any future development of the Gallowgate because of Shearer's bar, claiming they've spent too much on it to move it or change things. Not so sure myself like.

No idea why they would need to change things, no expert like, but surley the strength and support would be provided by building across the road and joining level 7 on, maybe having an access like to the ground above the shop?

 I always thought we should have moved the pitch so the goals were at the milburn and east stand ends, the out nearer the old brewery meaning the east stand could be built inwards and wouldnt need to affect leazes tce. Too late for that idea now like.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:44:30 PM
From what I can remember the Gallowgate end was built with the option to add level 7 to it, I also remember talk about a possible hotel casino thingy being built above the metro and joining onto the ground so strawberry place would be under cover. Possibly this may happen if the casino deal is given to us??

That's the one, that seems to be the most talked about idea.

BTW would Shearer's bar and the new megastore effect anything? A mate of mine reckons we can rule out any future development of the Gallowgate because of Shearer's bar, claiming they've spent too much on it to move it or change things. Not so sure myself like.

No idea why they would need to change things, no expert like, but surley the strength and support would be provided by building across the road and joining level 7 on, maybe having an access like to the ground above the shop?

I always thought we should have moved the pitch so the goals were at the milburn and east stand ends, the out nearer the old brewery meaning the east stand could be built inwards and wouldnt need to affect leazes tce. Too late for that idea now like.

That's an interesting idea and I can see what you mean, as you say though, too late now. That's what Pompey are doing aren't they?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Mick on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:49:47 PM
From what I can remember the Gallowgate end was built with the option to add level 7 to it, I also remember talk about a possible hotel casino thingy being built above the metro and joining onto the ground so strawberry place would be under cover. Possibly this may happen if the casino deal is given to us??

That's the one, that seems to be the most talked about idea.

BTW would Shearer's bar and the new megastore effect anything? A mate of mine reckons we can rule out any future development of the Gallowgate because of Shearer's bar, claiming they've spent too much on it to move it or change things. Not so sure myself like.

No idea why they would need to change things, no expert like, but surley the strength and support would be provided by building across the road and joining level 7 on, maybe having an access like to the ground above the shop?

 I always thought we should have moved the pitch so the goals were at the milburn and east stand ends, the out nearer the old brewery meaning the east stand could be built inwards and wouldnt need to affect leazes tce. Too late for that idea now like.

Bloody hell, it's a pity nobody else thought about that especially when Sir John was talking about reducing the size of the ground if we moved out and using it for Rugby.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: bobjonson on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:55:34 PM
From what I can remember the Gallowgate end was built with the option to add level 7 to it, I also remember talk about a possible hotel casino thingy being built above the metro and joining onto the ground so strawberry place would be under cover. Possibly this may happen if the casino deal is given to us??

That's the one, that seems to be the most talked about idea.

BTW would Shearer's bar and the new megastore effect anything? A mate of mine reckons we can rule out any future development of the Gallowgate because of Shearer's bar, claiming they've spent too much on it to move it or change things. Not so sure myself like.

No idea why they would need to change things, no expert like, but surley the strength and support would be provided by building across the road and joining level 7 on, maybe having an access like to the ground above the shop?

 I always thought we should have moved the pitch so the goals were at the milburn and east stand ends, the out nearer the old brewery meaning the east stand could be built inwards and wouldnt need to affect leazes tce. Too late for that idea now like.

Bloody hell, it's a pity nobody else thought about that especially when Sir John was talking about reducing the size of the ground if we moved out and using it for Rugby.

dont know if your taking the p*ss or not with your comments or not, but the plans for the ground were for a sports arena, running track gym etc, not a rugby stadium?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: NE5 on Friday 7 July 2006, 08:58:13 PM
From what I can remember the Gallowgate end was built with the option to add level 7 to it, I also remember talk about a possible hotel casino thingy being built above the metro and joining onto the ground so strawberry place would be under cover. Possibly this may happen if the casino deal is given to us??

That's the one, that seems to be the most talked about idea.

BTW would Shearer's bar and the new megastore effect anything? A mate of mine reckons we can rule out any future development of the Gallowgate because of Shearer's bar, claiming they've spent too much on it to move it or change things. Not so sure myself like.

No idea why they would need to change things, no expert like, but surley the strength and support would be provided by building across the road and joining level 7 on, maybe having an access like to the ground above the shop?

 I always thought we should have moved the pitch so the goals were at the milburn and east stand ends, the out nearer the old brewery meaning the east stand could be built inwards and wouldnt need to affect leazes tce. Too late for that idea now like.

Bloody hell, it's a pity nobody else thought about that especially when Sir John was talking about reducing the size of the ground if we moved out and using it for Rugby.

it wasn't for Rugby

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Mick on Friday 7 July 2006, 09:00:26 PM
From what I can remember the Gallowgate end was built with the option to add level 7 to it, I also remember talk about a possible hotel casino thingy being built above the metro and joining onto the ground so strawberry place would be under cover. Possibly this may happen if the casino deal is given to us??

That's the one, that seems to be the most talked about idea.

BTW would Shearer's bar and the new megastore effect anything? A mate of mine reckons we can rule out any future development of the Gallowgate because of Shearer's bar, claiming they've spent too much on it to move it or change things. Not so sure myself like.

No idea why they would need to change things, no expert like, but surley the strength and support would be provided by building across the road and joining level 7 on, maybe having an access like to the ground above the shop?

 I always thought we should have moved the pitch so the goals were at the milburn and east stand ends, the out nearer the old brewery meaning the east stand could be built inwards and wouldnt need to affect leazes tce. Too late for that idea now like.

Bloody hell, it's a pity nobody else thought about that especially when Sir John was talking about reducing the size of the ground if we moved out and using it for Rugby.

dont know if your taking the p*ss or not with your comments or not, but the plans for the ground were for a sports arena, running track gym etc, not a rugby stadium?

I thought they were also going to use it for Rugby when they were working on the idea of a sporting club.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: bobjonson on Friday 7 July 2006, 09:03:06 PM
From what I can remember the Gallowgate end was built with the option to add level 7 to it, I also remember talk about a possible hotel casino thingy being built above the metro and joining onto the ground so strawberry place would be under cover. Possibly this may happen if the casino deal is given to us??

That's the one, that seems to be the most talked about idea.

BTW would Shearer's bar and the new megastore effect anything? A mate of mine reckons we can rule out any future development of the Gallowgate because of Shearer's bar, claiming they've spent too much on it to move it or change things. Not so sure myself like.

No idea why they would need to change things, no expert like, but surley the strength and support would be provided by building across the road and joining level 7 on, maybe having an access like to the ground above the shop?

 I always thought we should have moved the pitch so the goals were at the milburn and east stand ends, the out nearer the old brewery meaning the east stand could be built inwards and wouldnt need to affect leazes tce. Too late for that idea now like.

Bloody hell, it's a pity nobody else thought about that especially when Sir John was talking about reducing the size of the ground if we moved out and using it for Rugby.

dont know if your taking the p*ss or not with your comments or not, but the plans for the ground were for a sports arena, running track gym etc, not a rugby stadium?

I thought they were also going to use it for Rugby when they were working on the idea of a sporting club.

No, you thought wrong.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Mick on Friday 7 July 2006, 09:20:40 PM
Here's a proposal that did happen:


http://www.4thegame.com/club/nufc/news/33935/COUNCIL+BACK+NEWCASTLE&apos%3BS+CHANGE+OF+HEART.html


COUNCIL BACK NEWCASTLE'S CHANGE OF HEART
Thursday 20 Nov 1997
Newcastle United's plans to increase the capacity of St James' Park rather than move to a new 75,000-seater stadium have been welcomed by the local authority.

Newcastle City Council's policy and resources committee had been expecting to consider proposals for a new stadium, which had met with environmental protests because it involved United moving to a green-belt site at Castle Leazes.

But the committee were delighted to learn of United's alternative plans, which are believed to include the expansion of both the Leazes End and Milburn Stands at St James' Park to increase the capacity to approximately 51,000.

Councillor Don Price, who chaired the meeting, said: "This must surely be seen as a very positive move by Newcastle United.

"It's good news for the fans, it's good news for the environment and it's good news for the city's economy. It will, I hope, secure United's future here in Newcastle.

"We are hoping that we'll be in receipt of a new application about mid-December and I would envisage a period of probably four months before it would be determined.

"It is expected that this new application would not be a departure from our planning policies and could therefore be decided by us as planning authority without the need for referral to the Department of the Environment.

"I think there will be a great relief in many quarters that this expansion would be confined to the existing boundaries of St James' Park.

"That means no encroachment into Leazes Park or Town Moor land and there would be no loss of public open spaces that has got to be a major step in the right direction."

The club confirmed that the new plans will mean no loss of capacity during construction.

Freddy Shepherd, who will take over as chairman from Sir John Hall at the club's AGM on December 1, said: "Although the plans have been revised, the football club's initial priority to allow as many fans as possible to attend games remains the same.

"We are aware of the importance of football to the people of Newcastle and the surrounding area.

"As an integral part of the community, we have taken note of the issues raised concerning our original plans at Castle Leazes and with that in mind the football club have redoubled their efforts to find an alternative way to satisfy the demands of the supporters.

"We need to move forward as quickly as possible and now that the previous complexities surrounding the development of St James' Park have been overcome, we believe that this option will, subject to planning approval, meet the needs of everyone."

If the planning application is successful next month, Newcastle could start building at St James' Park their home since 1882 by the end of next summer.

Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Howaythelads on Friday 7 July 2006, 09:24:02 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of dodgy deals going on around that time, you don't see many thin people on planning committees. :)

We should have moved for the ultimate benefit of the football club.

Time to close the thread, as I've just had the final say.  :winking:
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Friday 7 July 2006, 09:27:15 PM
Some pics I've just comped

SJP the future: Gallowgate raised to L7

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp_future_gallowgateraised.jpg)

SJP the future: All 4 stands complete and level

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp_future_filled.jpg)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Friday 7 July 2006, 10:21:21 PM
SJP the future: East Stand raised to L7

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp_future_eaststandraised.jpg)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: smoggeordie on Friday 7 July 2006, 10:22:40 PM
They look wicked
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Friday 7 July 2006, 10:33:55 PM
(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp_future_eaststandraised1.jpg)

This pic shows just how vast SJP would become if the East Stand was raised to L7, how much bigger and all consuming it would become from an inside view.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: looneytoon on Saturday 8 July 2006, 03:56:45 PM
Those pictures look fantastic, especially the aerial shots.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 03:58:55 PM
I tried doing a more in depth 3D version looking in from the SJH Corner L7 where the away fans sit, to give an idea of how vast and expansive all 4 sides raised would look, but I couldn't get the composition right, will have another try as it looked quite good scalled down to hide all the seam lines ;)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Stevie on Saturday 8 July 2006, 04:16:14 PM
(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp_future_eaststandraised1.jpg)

This pic shows just how vast SJP would become if the East Stand was raised to L7, how much bigger and all consuming it would become from an inside view.

That looks immense, given that the East Stand holds 4,500 now, and The Milburn plus corners 22,000, that would mean our capacity would increase by 18,000, to 70,000.  Do we need it?  Course we fuckin do 99.5% of seats are full for every League game, meaning every week we are losing potential extra in come of maybe £500-800,000, which would be £15m - £18m a season, the value of Michael Owen (well the price we paid for Michael Owen).

Newcastle are the only club other than Manchester United, who have 70,000 people who are willing and able to watch football in this country (Arsenal struggled to fill 60,000, Liverpool can barely fill little Anfield, Chelsea - no chance, Tottenham see Liverpool), and I think we need an increase.  Unfortunately it won't happen at St James' unless some Scochwad, commits arson on them student flats on Leazes Terrace.

I remember one of the proposed schemes apart from The Leazes Park proposals, was a 75,000 seater stadium at Newburn Haugh, which would've been great for me because I live with 20 minutes walk, it would've worked as well because the A1 is right near by, as is the 21 bus stop.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Dave on Saturday 8 July 2006, 04:29:20 PM
The grass wouldn't grow at all.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Howaythelads on Saturday 8 July 2006, 04:39:02 PM
The grass wouldn't grow at all.

Dave -  What's that got to do with "proposals for a new stadium that never happened", mate?

Mind you, am I allowed to say I agree with you and that the grass won't grow?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Atticus on Saturday 8 July 2006, 04:50:14 PM
The grass wouldn't grow at all.

Dave - What's that got to do with "proposals for a new stadium that never happened", mate?

Mind you, am I allowed to say I agree with you and that the grass won't grow?

I didn't read most of the thread, I just looked at Grassroot's mock-ups and decided to comment. Whenever people say 'that looks great' i'm not sure i've ever seen anyone make the point that building those stands would mean there was little or no light or air movement getting onto the pitch. Considering the problems we've had before with a s*** pitch it would be nigh-on impossible to maintain.

As I said, I agree with you, the grass wouldn't grow. Thing is, I'm not allowed to say that had we done what we should have done and relocated to a larger stadium for less money, it could have been designed from scratch in such a way that the grass would grow. It's actually an important point, the quality of the pitch is vital, as we've seen since SJP has been extended as it's cost us when it's been s***.

As TheOrder mentioned, we've got those big scaffolded lights on the go now. The pitch was better last season than I've seen it for years, I see no reason why it wouldn't remain the same if the stadium was extended again. Just put the lights on for longer on any given day, I suppose. Granted, it'll cost us more money, but Freddy knows what he's doing.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 04:50:51 PM
The grass issue is as old as the stadium itself, we have always had problems with the grass. Towering stands block out the light, heat, cold, and other particles needed for grass, but new tecniques can replicate that, we have one already that heats the grass, as a result our pitch last season was for 90% in perfect condition.
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: Dave on Saturday 8 July 2006, 04:53:42 PM
What about the air flow?
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 04:54:04 PM
Does anyone have any side elevations of the Milburn? Ideally as a drawing like this pic here:

(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/normal_1990proposal1.jpg)
Title: Re: Stadium development proposals that never happened
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 04:56:19 PM
What about the air flow?

Easy, just tie a few tumble driers to the back of the stands, extend the air release pipes through into the playing surface, and bob's ya ma's brother.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 05:54:35 PM
Right I've removed all posts that descended into the usual "the board is crap/the board is great" diatribe (my own posts included) as this thread has nothing to do with that debate, a debate that had been debated to death. If people want to continue that debate, check this link: http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php/topic,24330.0.html

If people want to debate past stadium development plans and future stadium development plans, then post away.

Please don't attempt to hijack this thread. If anyone has any issues with this, PM me.

Cheers
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:01:33 PM
(http://www.newcastle-online.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10201/sjp_future_eaststandraised1.jpg)

This pic shows just how vast SJP would become if the East Stand was raised to L7, how much bigger and all consuming it would become from an inside view.

That looks immense, given that the East Stand holds 4,500 now, and The Milburn plus corners 22,000, that would mean our capacity would increase by 18,000, to 70,000.  Do we need it?  Course we fuckin do 99.5% of seats are full for every League game, meaning every week we are losing potential extra in come of maybe £500-800,000, which would be £15m - £18m a season, the value of Michael Owen (well the price we paid for Michael Owen).

Aye, long term it would all pay for itself and then sum.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Howaythelads on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:07:44 PM
Ok, I'll start the debate off again with 2 questions.....

1. Give me one reason why the club would not have benefited from movng to a new ground only a few minutes away from SJP that : 
a) would have cost less to build, meaning that over the following years more money in the coffers for players.
b) wouldn't need future expansion, again leaving more money in the coffers for players.
c) just so you understand, we're talking A LOT OF EXTRA MONEY in the coffers, not just a few bob.

Make the reason an intelligent one, not a stupid one like moving the ground 5 minutes away from where it is now would screw up the economy of the city, or a sentimental one like, " we've played at SJP for years so we can't move now ".

Cheers
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:12:37 PM
Ok, I'll start the debate off again with 2 questions.....

1. Give me one reason why the club would not have benefited from movng to a new ground only a few minutes away from SJP that : 
a) would have cost less to build, meaning that over the following years more money in the coffers for players.
b) wouldn't need future expansion, again leaving more money in the coffers for players.
c) just so you understand, we're talking A LOT OF EXTRA MONEY in the coffers, not just a few bob.

Make the reason an intelligent one, not a stupid one like moving the ground 5 minutes away from where it is now would screw up the economy of the city, or a sentimental one like, " we've played at SJP for years so we can't move now ".

Cheers

The club would have benefited from Castle Leazes, financially in terms of both income and savings, but today it's a moot point because we never did move which I'm glad, for sentimental and traditional reasons. That is my opinion, you disagree, I respect that. Please respect mine.

Cheers
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Mick on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:21:13 PM
Does anybody know how much we pay per season for the original £40 million loan?

Or how long we'll have to repay?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:24:06 PM
I can understand why some fans, quite a lot in fact, would not bat an eye lid if we did move from St. James' Park, but for me, SJP is Newcastle United, it's our home, our monument. In an age where tradition, history and roots are being traded like dollars, I value those properties more so than money or trophies.

That's just me though, that doesn't mean I have no ambition for my club or desire to see us compete with other clubs BTW, I do, I just believe in the club, not the people, the club, enough to believe we can challenge, we can be successful, without neglecting our history, traditions and roots.

I consider St. James' Park to be this club's greatest ever achievement and no trophy could ever top it. Trophies get handed back to the next winner, SJP is something tangible, something solid, something that will forever be ours.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Howaythelads on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:24:14 PM
Ok, I'll start the debate off again with 2 questions.....

1. Give me one reason why the club would not have benefited from movng to a new ground only a few minutes away from SJP that : 
a) would have cost less to build, meaning that over the following years more money in the coffers for players.
b) wouldn't need future expansion, again leaving more money in the coffers for players.
c) just so you understand, we're talking A LOT OF EXTRA MONEY in the coffers, not just a few bob.

Make the reason an intelligent one, not a stupid one like moving the ground 5 minutes away from where it is now would screw up the economy of the city, or a sentimental one like, " we've played at SJP for years so we can't move now ".

Cheers

The club would have benefited from Castle Leazes, financially in terms of both income and savings, but today it's a moot point because we never did move which I'm glad, for sentimental and traditional reasons. That is my opinion, you disagree, I respect that. Please respect mine.

Cheers

Don't moan when we fall further behind the top teams due to having less revenue than them. Lots less revenue. Remember that you're happy we're at SJP for tradition and sentimental reasons, with all the limitations that brings with it. Keep in mind also that as those other clubs increase their revenue we'll be very dependant upon being lucky with a quality managerial appointment if we're to challenge them. In fact we'll have to find a Wenger MkII, not easy to find, you may agree. Fergie and Mourinho have achieved things at their clubs due to massive financial resources, wouldn't you agree? Good managers yes, but they've had massive financial backing. Wenger is a one-off imo, but that's what we need now.

BTW If it's such a moot point that we didn't move, why did you start the original thread about development plans that never happened?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: NE5 on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:27:10 PM
How long do you think it is possible for this to come about, or do you think it would take 80 years like it did the last time due to having s*** directors ?

Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:28:27 PM
How long do you think it is possible for this to come about, or do you think it would take 80 years like it did the last time due to having s*** directors ?



For what to come about?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: NE5 on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:30:36 PM
I can understand why some fans, quite a lot in fact, would not bat an eye lid if we did move from St. James' Park, but for me, SJP is Newcastle United, it's our home, our monument. In an age where tradition, history and roots are being traded like dollars, I value those properties more so than money or trophies.

That's just me though, that doesn't mean I have no ambition for my club or desire to see us compete with other clubs BTW, I do, I just believe in the club, not the people, the club, enough to believe we can challenge, we can be successful, without neglecting our history, traditions and roots.

I consider St. James' Park to be this club's greatest ever achievement and no trophy could ever top it. Trophies get handed back to the next winner, SJP is something tangible, something solid, something that will forever be ours.

The fact that we did not move to Castle Leazes, means we will never run at our potential until we have a bigger stadium, and also if other clubs join Arsenal and improve their grounds to larger than ours, we will be operating at a disadvantage to them.

Personally, I put maximising our potential way ahead of a further 5 minute walk to the ground on match days. Those that disagree and are happy to stay at SJP, there are 2 points.

1. If we had moved, you would be happy as a pig in s***, despite what you say now
2. Don't bother complaining when we lag behind other teams that may pull away from us ie Arsenal and Liverpool
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Howaythelads on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:31:36 PM
I can understand why some fans, quite a lot in fact, would not bat an eye lid if we did move from St. James' Park, but for me, SJP is Newcastle United, it's our home, our monument. In an age where tradition, history and roots are being traded like dollars, I value those properties more so than money or trophies.

That's just me though, that doesn't mean I have no ambition for my club or desire to see us compete with other clubs BTW, I do, I just believe in the club, not the people, the club, enough to believe we can challenge, we can be successful, without neglecting our history, traditions and roots.

I consider St. James' Park to be this club's greatest ever achievement and no trophy could ever top it. Trophies get handed back to the next winner, SJP is something tangible, something solid, something that will forever be ours.

You think the subjects aren't linked, but in reality they can't be separated, not when you say the things you do. You claim you believe the ground to be the club's biggest achievement and yet you relentlessly slag the Board.

I think you're posting for effect.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:35:09 PM
Anyway...

Does anyone have any side elevations of the Milburn stand?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Howaythelads on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:38:32 PM
Anyway...

Does anyone have any side elevations of the Milburn stand?

Good reply to a valid point. If you want a thread for photo's of the ground why didn't you just open one for that? I've got plenty that I took myself, inlcuding what you're asking for.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Rob W on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:42:35 PM
One of the reasons Castle Leazes never happened was that it would encroach on the Town Moor - a lot of peopel reckon that once you start on that it'll be covered in houses in 10 years

Stop whinging about it - we're stuck at SJP with a great ground that we can still expand if we want to - and its location is the envy of Yurop

What's needed is a team that's wins sommat, anything would do

The ground is a distraction
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Baggio on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:43:59 PM
Does anybody know how much we pay per season for the original £40 million loan?

Or how long we'll have to repay?

IIRC we pay back £2 million per year, not bad really considering the extra revenue the seats have produced.

Should be paid off around 2020.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:46:13 PM
Weren't we the very first club to get a loan based on future ST sales for stadium expansion?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Mick on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:46:54 PM
Does anybody know how much we pay per season for the original £40 million loan?

Or how long we'll have to repay?

IIRC we pay back £2 million per year, not bad really considering the extra revenue the seats have produced.

Should be paid off around 2020.

It's a pity about the timing, 2012 might have been a good time for the loan to finish and then the ground could have been expanded again for the olympics if we get some of the football as promised.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Howaythelads on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:50:30 PM
Weren't we the very first club to get a loan based on future ST sales for stadium expansion?

If we were that should be counted as another positive achievement. Thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Mick on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:51:56 PM
Weren't we the very first club to get a loan based on future ST sales for stadium expansion?

I'm not sure if we were the first but it was made out to be a big thing at the time and self financing.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:52:23 PM
Forgot all about being an Olympic Venue, that would qualify us for grants and such wouldn't it? Maybe that's what will happen.

Who knows what future developments lay in wait. The entire City seems to have been restructured and the area around the stadium has improved significantly over the years, it's like a mini-city with shops, bars, the metro, offices, houses, casino... gyms...

Didn't the club buy into the Brewery land?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: NE5 on Saturday 8 July 2006, 06:56:50 PM
How long do you think it is possible for this to come about, or do you think it would take 80 years like it did the last time due to having s*** directors ?


For what to come about?

eerr...the topic in question, the expansion of the gallowgate and/or the East Stand ? What do you think I mean ?

Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:01:20 PM
How long do you think it is possible for this to come about, or do you think it would take 80 years like it did the last time due to having s*** directors ?


For what to come about?

eerr...the topic in question, the expansion of the gallowgate and/or the East Stand ? What do you think I mean ?



I haven't a clue. FS talked about expanding the Gallowgate last year but he was very vague and the quotes were just a few lines snatched from a speech he gave at some do or something.

I doubt anything will happen for a good few years yet though, climate ain't right.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:02:13 PM
Anyone know which firm of architects worked on SJP or who designed it?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Mick on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:03:30 PM
Forgot all about being an Olympic Venue, that would qualify us for grants and such wouldn't it? Maybe that's what will happen.

Who knows what future developments lay in wait. The entire City seems to have been restructured and the area around the stadium has improved significantly over the years, it's like a mini-city with shops, bars, the metro, offices, houses, casino... gyms...

Didn't the club buy into the Brewery land?

I don't see why we couldn't attract grants, plenty of clubs received them for the World Cup in 1966, I'm sure we had a problem back then because we didn't own the ground and had some sort of wrangle with the council.  England are also bidding to stage the world Cup in 2018 so we might gain more exposure and have another reason to expand.  Having two major events within such a short period of time should help.

I'm not sure about the brewery land, I did hear something but can't remember what.  I think we also own the car park at the Metro station but I'm not 100% sure about that either.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Sima on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:04:20 PM
Anyone know which firm of architects worked on SJP or who designed it?

Ballast Needham IIRC
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:12:10 PM
Anyone know which firm of architects worked on SJP or who designed it?

Ballast Needham IIRC

Cheers Sima, just googling them, can't find a website for them but they appear to be a Dutch Real Estate developer and built FC Groningen's stadium.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Dave on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:13:43 PM
http://www.ballast-nedam.nl/
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Dave on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:18:44 PM
Ballast Wiltshire was the main contractor.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Mick on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:20:08 PM
http://www.technicalaccess.com/case%20studies/wiltshire.htm
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Mick on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:22:30 PM
Here's a link to an interesting forum discussion of the ground.

http://skyscrapercity.com/archive/index.php/t-249042.html
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:22:49 PM
Cheers lads. Might contact them see if they would post me any SJP plans. Doubt they would like but shy bairns get nowt.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:30:46 PM
Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

(http://i6.tinypic.com/14tn0yh.jpg)
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Mick on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:32:08 PM
Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

(http://i6.tinypic.com/14tn0yh.jpg)

It looks like a maisonette. bluesigh.gif
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Mick on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:34:39 PM
Is that stand topped off with executive boxes?  I can't make out if they are boxes or seating.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Invicta_Toon on Saturday 8 July 2006, 07:42:44 PM
all of you who value the tradition of St James' Park, hypothetically (ignoring cost), would you accept NUFC ground sharing with Boro for 2 years (and hence fewer tickets) while the entire current lopsided stadium was demolished, the pitch moved 20 metres, and a new 65-70,000 seat symmetrical stadium built, still called St James' Park, with an increase in ticket prices to pay for it?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: macbeth on Sunday 9 July 2006, 12:04:37 AM
Don't moan when we fall further behind the top teams due to having less revenue than them. Lots less revenue. Remember that you're happy we're at SJP for tradition and sentimental reasons, with all the limitations that brings with it. Keep in mind also that as those other clubs increase their revenue we'll be very dependant upon being lucky with a quality managerial appointment if we're to challenge them. In fact we'll have to find a Wenger MkII, not easy to find, you may agree. Fergie and Mourinho have achieved things at their clubs due to massive financial resources, wouldn't you agree? Good managers yes, but they've had massive financial backing. Wenger is a one-off imo, but that's what we need now.

You have to remember that for the last 5 years or so we have had a huge gate advantage over everyone bar Man U. That advantage does not seem to have helped us.

BTW If it's such a moot point that we didn't move, why did you start the original thread about development plans that never happened?

My understanding of ground extension issues are that teh East Stand can't be built higher because of the listed building behind it. The Gallowgate cannot be built on as the increase in foundations required would impact on the Metro station.

The building of the main stand was  mistake back in 87/88. If it had been built in the car park it would have allowed everything else to be moved too. Too late now. Bad planning by a board lacking in long-term vision.

The inability to get planning permission for Castle Leazes was also a disaster. I think the original plans were for only 42,000 with a design which would allow extensions to be built later. The use of the existing ground for other things, like training pitches and rugby games would have reduced the overall cost. Not really sure why but the board, under Sir John didn't really fight the fight as they probably should have done. There were some strange pressures within the council too. Councillors were told that if it came to a vote then shareholders in the club would not be allowed to vote as it would be a "conflict of interests". As this excluded a huge number of councillors it made it very likely the council would not approve the move. If the club had really wanted it I think they could have easily turned up the pressure and made it impossible for the council to turn them down. Sir John managed that sort of business "negotiation" with the Metro centre, he could have done it again.

As far as costs go, it would have made a huge diffference to our finances. The club pay roughly £4.5m per year for the ground extension, with the final payment due in 2016/2017. The original plan for 42,000 seats would not have created as much increase in revenue but it woudl have cost lots less, and would still have been expandable.

I'm not convinced that much more than 52,000 is needed. It's nice to fantasise about playing Man U in a title deicder in front of 70,000, or sunlun in a derby, but neither are that likely really. The cup games of the last couple of years have shown that the crowds are fragile. Season ticket holders always go, they've paid up so they will go to all the league games. Cup games seem full of dads with kids, and not that many season ticket holders. If we get to the point where people realise they don't need season tickets, and can generally buy tickets on a game by game basis the crowds for C-list games could plummet. If there were, say 35,000 season tickets sold for this season, meaning 14,000 available on a match by match basis how many people would turn up for Reading midweek, or Watford the weekend before Xmas ?

Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Decky on Sunday 9 July 2006, 12:20:14 AM
is the metro problem the station or the line? if its the station then surely it can go inside SJP?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: pedro111 on Sunday 9 July 2006, 12:31:24 AM
Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

(http://i6.tinypic.com/14tn0yh.jpg)

I agree the east stand needs to be knocked down and built again.

The stand behind the goal in the above pic is something like what I'd like to see, very steep.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Wullie on Sunday 9 July 2006, 12:51:12 AM
is the metro problem the station or the line? if its the station then surely it can go inside SJP?

It won't be the line, it doesn't run that way. As for the station, fill the f***ing thing in and let the lazy b******s walk from Monument.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Wullie on Sunday 9 July 2006, 12:53:47 AM
The waiting list is bollocks Stevie, it hasn't existed since the ground extension. I got mine at the high point of the Robson era through one call to the box office.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Stevie on Sunday 9 July 2006, 12:55:24 AM
Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

(http://i6.tinypic.com/14tn0yh.jpg)
That's La Bombanera or summik like that, Boca's ground.  It's THE one ground I'd love to go to that I've not seen, I'd love to see Boca v River, it's one game where I very much get the impression that the hype is not only deserved but understated.   The thing with Boca's ground a lot of those steep stands are actually terracing, which is why there are 61000 at Boca some weeks.  If you look at the Mestaella or however you spell it, it looks higher than Canary Wharf but because it's so steep you need railing in every row and the overall capacity is just 49000.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: NE5 on Sunday 9 July 2006, 01:00:51 AM
The waiting list is bollocks Stevie, it hasn't existed since the ground extension. I got mine at the high point of the Robson era through one call to the box office.

Utterly terrible that we can't sell 52,000 season tickets. With such a s**** board eh. Where are all these superior directors at other clubs who shift half that amount with no problem ?

Sad and deluded or what.

Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Stevie on Sunday 9 July 2006, 01:01:22 AM
Wullie, we could be relegation fodder for years, in my opinion we'd still get 50,000, we have so many people like my dad, who go to half the games, but would go to all if he could get a ticket for every one, and I know so many people who have families and would like to pick and choose their games.  Douglas Hall who is a w***, once said a succesful Newcastle United could average 100,000, I really don't know if that's true but we could EASY get 70-80,000.  EASY.  Another thing Wullie you're saying the height of the Robson reign??? what heights were they then?  coming 3rd and winning f*** all again?
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Wullie on Sunday 9 July 2006, 01:04:17 AM
Wullie, we could be relegation fodder for years, in my opinion we'd still get 50,000, we have so many people like my dad, who go to half the games, but would go to all if he could get a ticket for every one, and I know so many people who have families and would like to pick and choose their games.  Douglas Hall who is a w***, once said a succesful Newcastle United could average 100,000, I really don't know if that's true but we could EASY get 70-80,000.  EASY.  Another thing Wullie you're saying the height of the Robson reign??? what heights were they then?  coming 3rd and winning f*** all again?

I was merely picking up on your comment that we had a pre-Souness waiting list of 10,000, which is just not true.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Stevie on Sunday 9 July 2006, 01:06:36 AM
Wullie, we could be relegation fodder for years, in my opinion we'd still get 50,000, we have so many people like my dad, who go to half the games, but would go to all if he could get a ticket for every one, and I know so many people who have families and would like to pick and choose their games.  Douglas Hall who is a w***, once said a succesful Newcastle United could average 100,000, I really don't know if that's true but we could EASY get 70-80,000.  EASY.  Another thing Wullie you're saying the height of the Robson reign??? what heights were they then?  coming 3rd and winning **** all again?

I was merely picking up on your comment that we had a pre-Souness waiting list of 10,000, which is just not true.
Fair enough but I will state now, we have the second biggest true fanbase in this country**, and we could get 70,000 no problem at all, none.  The lad who queried that before is from the South of England.

** Willing and able to go to games every week
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Decky on Sunday 9 July 2006, 02:04:42 AM
is the metro problem the station or the line? if its the station then surely it can go inside SJP?

It won't be the line, it doesn't run that way. As for the station, fill the f***ing thing in and let the lazy b******s walk from Monument.

exactly, even Hay Market is pretty close, so thats two. When i go to Newcastle i dont even use the SJP station, its better walking up from Monument or Hay Market with the crowds
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: bobjonson on Sunday 9 July 2006, 08:14:43 AM
is the metro problem the station or the line? if its the station then surely it can go inside SJP?

It won't be the line, it doesn't run that way. As for the station, fill the f***ing thing in and let the lazy b******s walk from Monument.

exactly, even Hay Market is pretty close, so thats two. When i go to Newcastle i dont even use the SJP station, its better walking up from Monument or Hay Market with the crowds

As I've said before the Gallowgate end was designed with the option of being able to extend it to level 7 comparitively easily, the Metro has no impact on it, in fact the design for the hotel casino etc incorporates the metro station.  I'll try to find the artisist impressions that were out a while ago.

here's a bit info I found.

From the New Civil Engineer website:
Newcastle United has tabled plans for a huge leisure and shops complex just yards from its St James' Park ground. The multi-million pound development will include a 200-bed hotel and 45 flats.

The rest of the development on land at St James' Metro Station, Gallowgate, would contain a 280-space multi-storey car park, shops, a cinema, nightclub, offices, bars and restaurants.

Newcastle City Council has just received the plans, which would have to go out for public comments before a decision is made by councillors.

Newcastle United owns all the land where the development will take place, apart from one small section owned by the local authority.

Durham-based architects RPS Consultants said the scheme will also take in the car park behind Wellbar House up to Strawberry Lane and down to St Andrews' Place. Technical director David Kershaw said the scheme would cost "tens of millions of pounds" and revealed that the firm had been working on blueprints with the club for two years.

He added: 

"This will be a landmark scheme within Newcastle. It's at the focal point of St James' Boulevard as it turns down towards Gallowgate.

"It will complement the football ground behind it and sit comfortably beside it.

"The football club see this scheme as complementary to their operation as a and the interests of the club." It has been earmarked in a council brief for redevelopment in a bid to breathe new life into the Gallowgate area.

A Newcastle City Council spokeswoman said: 

"The application will have to go out to public consultation so that any objections or support can be received from interested parties."
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: bobjonson on Sunday 9 July 2006, 08:20:39 AM
and this

First appeared on Weds 19.11.03 

From the MGM Mirage website:
New Mixed-Use Development to be Built Alongside Football Stadium LAS VEGAS, Nov. 19

MGM Mirage the most respected U.S. based hotel and gaming company, and Newcastle United PLC today announced a 50:50 joint venture agreement to build a major new mixed-use development on a prime site above St. James' Metro Station, which is in the heart of Newcastle's city centre and adjacent to Newcastle United's football stadium.

Newcastle United is one of the leading English Premier League (Soccer) clubs, finishing 3rd and 4th in the Premier League in the past two seasons.

The site will be used to build an exciting new complex, which could house commercial and retail outlets, residential apartments, a hotel, leisure and entertainment facilities and a Las Vegas style casino of approximately 100,000 square feet.

The complex, completion of which is contingent upon timely implementation of proposed gaming law reforms and obtaining required planning approvals, is expected to become a major new landmark for the city.

The 50:50 joint venture involves Newcastle United PLC providing the land and MGM MIRAGE an equity investment together with its unrivalled knowledge and experience in the gaming and leisure industries to lead the development and management of the new complex. The casino would be owned and operated by MGM MIRAGE in facilities leased from the joint venture.

Commenting on the announcement, Terry Lanni, Chairman and CEO of MGM MIRAGE, said: "We have ambitious plans for the UK -- deregulation and taxation levels permitting -- and we are looking at other opportunities across the country to develop casino facilities of varying sizes, including, where market conditions warrant, large scale hotel/casino destination resorts.

Our proposed joint venture with Newcastle United, adjacent to its football stadium, has considerable promise and will contribute to the many positive developments already taking place in the City."

Freddy Shepherd, Chairman of Newcastle United, said: "This is a very exciting opportunity for Newcastle, its people and for Newcastle United Football Club. Situated alongside St. James' Park, we hope that the development will become a focal point for the city of Newcastle, and create a vibrant mixed-use development at the heart of the city. We are delighted to be playing a leading role in the transformation of Newcastle into a city that the people of the North East can be proud of. "

Lloyd C. Nathan, Managing Director of MGM MIRAGE Development, Europe, added: "Through our research, we have been very impressed by the developments that have taken place in Newcastle over the last decade and we are excited at the prospect of contributing to this further. The joint venture complex promises to create a number of significant new opportunities for Newcastle from jobs to leisure activities, as well as tourist attractions. We look forward to working with the City's people and representatives as the project moves forward and to creating a dynamic entertainment and leisure complex."
 
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Howaythelads on Sunday 9 July 2006, 08:21:04 AM
Don't moan when we fall further behind the top teams due to having less revenue than them. Lots less revenue. Remember that you're happy we're at SJP for tradition and sentimental reasons, with all the limitations that brings with it. Keep in mind also that as those other clubs increase their revenue we'll be very dependant upon being lucky with a quality managerial appointment if we're to challenge them. In fact we'll have to find a Wenger MkII, not easy to find, you may agree. Fergie and Mourinho have achieved things at their clubs due to massive financial resources, wouldn't you agree? Good managers yes, but they've had massive financial backing. Wenger is a one-off imo, but that's what we need now.

You have to remember that for the last 5 years or so we have had a huge gate advantage over everyone bar Man U. That advantage does not seem to have helped us.

BTW If it's such a moot point that we didn't move, why did you start the original thread about development plans that never happened?

My understanding of ground extension issues are that teh East Stand can't be built higher because of the listed building behind it. The Gallowgate cannot be built on as the increase in foundations required would impact on the Metro station.

The building of the main stand was  mistake back in 87/88. If it had been built in the car park it would have allowed everything else to be moved too. Too late now. Bad planning by a board lacking in long-term vision.

The inability to get planning permission for Castle Leazes was also a disaster. I think the original plans were for only 42,000 with a design which would allow extensions to be built later. The use of the existing ground for other things, like training pitches and rugby games would have reduced the overall cost. Not really sure why but the board, under Sir John didn't really fight the fight as they probably should have done. There were some strange pressures within the council too. Councillors were told that if it came to a vote then shareholders in the club would not be allowed to vote as it would be a "conflict of interests". As this excluded a huge number of councillors it made it very likely the council would not approve the move. If the club had really wanted it I think they could have easily turned up the pressure and made it impossible for the council to turn them down. Sir John managed that sort of business "negotiation" with the Metro centre, he could have done it again.

As far as costs go, it would have made a huge diffference to our finances. The club pay roughly £4.5m per year for the ground extension, with the final payment due in 2016/2017. The original plan for 42,000 seats would not have created as much increase in revenue but it woudl have cost lots less, and would still have been expandable.

I'm not convinced that much more than 52,000 is needed. It's nice to fantasise about playing Man U in a title deicder in front of 70,000, or sunlun in a derby, but neither are that likely really. The cup games of the last couple of years have shown that the crowds are fragile. Season ticket holders always go, they've paid up so they will go to all the league games. Cup games seem full of dads with kids, and not that many season ticket holders. If we get to the point where people realise they don't need season tickets, and can generally buy tickets on a game by game basis the crowds for C-list games could plummet. If there were, say 35,000 season tickets sold for this season, meaning 14,000 available on a match by match basis how many people would turn up for Reading midweek, or Watford the weekend before Xmas ?



I agree with most of that.

Want to mention the point you made in blue. I haven't overlooked anything, mate. You've overlooked the value of the manager. We were doing ok in comparision to the other top clubs when Robson was manager. We were 4th then 3rd before Robson started to lose it and we slipped to 5th remember. I know we were behind Arsenal, but as has been said many times and I'm sure most will agree, Wenger really is an exceptional manager who can achieve things with slightly lesser resources.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: bobjonson on Sunday 9 July 2006, 08:22:41 AM
From the ATE online site, "the global business portal for the gambling and gaming industry", November 15th 2004:

"Newcastle United will have to return the £5million it received from Las Vegas casino operator MGM Mirage after the Governments proposed cap on super-casinos, between four and ten, makes it highly unlikely that St James’ Park will receive a license. The Government, reacting to adverse opposition to the Gambling Bill, plans to reduce the number of large regional casinos that they will permit to open, and sources in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport indicated that it was unlikely that there would be one opened at Newcastle ."

From the Journal, 1st December 2004:

Newcastle United has been in talks with MGM Mirage about developing a hotel and casino next to the Metro Station but, with the Government's about-turn on unlimited Super Casinos, its future is unclear.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Howaythelads on Sunday 9 July 2006, 09:02:07 AM

Ridiculous comment, we had a waiting list pre Souness allegedly of well over 10,000 and we achieved **** all, nothing, won **** all.  We've still won **** all and our average gate next season will be no lower then 51,900, yet we still have people like you coming out with bollocks like that, without sounding like a "SUPER FAN" you know in your heart your not from Newcastle.  I have a lot to say I don't want to say it tonight because the way it will probably be construed will get me a ban so I'll say it tomorrow.

howaythelads Grassroots asked you for side elevations, your reply "yes I have many shots of SJP and of the ones you're asking for" why you being a ..... and not showing them then other than to be awkward?

After making the post I dug out the photo's on the CD, but before doing owt with them I read the post again. I didn't post the photo's  because when I  read his post again I noticed he had said, " ideally drawings ". I don't have drawings, I have a couple of photographs I took myself from the old bus station. I doubt it's what he's after.

Thanks for your interest.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Geordie_krispy on Sunday 9 July 2006, 09:31:39 AM
Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

(http://i6.tinypic.com/14tn0yh.jpg)
That's La Bombanera or summik like that, Boca's ground.  It's THE one ground I'd love to go to that I've not seen, I'd love to see Boca v River, it's one game where I very much get the impression that the hype is not only deserved but understated.   The thing with Boca's ground a lot of those steep stands are actually terracing, which is why there are 61000 at Boca some weeks.  If you look at the Mestaella or however you spell it, it looks higher than Canary Wharf but because it's so steep you need railing in every row and the overall capacity is just 49000.

Ahh, that's where it is.  Has anyone else seen that BBC program about Maradonna, hosted by Lineker.  He goes over there and has a chat to him, and whatever, the last 5-10 mins of the program are Maradonna and his family/cronies and Lineker watching a Boca game.  They are boxes on the left, there's a single bar across the width with a plexiscreen below, and a kind of bench to sit on.  Lineker's just kind of looking bewildered and Maradonna is jumping up and down like a chimp in the zoo, with someone holding his waist and facing away from the game, to make sure he doesn't fall out of the thing!  :lol:  But you can litererally just lean out and say hi to the people around you, and they're partitioned inbetween with a glass door so you could in essence see all the way along the row.

From the views on the program the seem about 3m wide, 2m deep and about 1.5/2m high.  Now saying that, you couldn't really get many seats in them, so unless they were to be coporate boxes it's not really feasable, but if they were glass on both sides they'd look pretty nice and would not block that much light, just the direct stuff.  Anyway, just thought i'd mention it.  And it's still technically on topic before someone starts flaming!  :winking:
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Monday 10 July 2006, 10:39:28 PM
To continue any debate about whether the board are s**** or not, follow this link: http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php/topic,24529.0.html

KEEP ALL POSTS OF THAT NATURE OUT OF THIS THREAD, PLEASE!

This thread exists only to discuss past stadium proposals and future stadium proposals only, and not the successes and failures of the board, Freddy Shepherd or any of that s****.
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Monday 10 July 2006, 10:54:50 PM
Look how steep this stand is, perhaps an idea for the East Stand?

(http://i6.tinypic.com/14tn0yh.jpg)

I agree the east stand needs to be knocked down and built again.

The stand behind the goal in the above pic is something like what I'd like to see, very steep.

Aye, being steep where the tiers overlap, I think that type of scenario seems to be the best option for the East Stand. I've seen photos of that stand from the back and it's quite slim, in fact most of the stadium is, I doubt it's like a city inside unlike wor stadium.

Crazy how the Argie stand pictured is all standing mind, must be amazing when cheering a goal up there... and dangerous!
Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: HTT on Monday 10 July 2006, 11:06:31 PM
3 tier stands that don't back out like the Milburn or Leazes:

Stade de Sclessin

(http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/belgium/liege_sclessin1.jpg)

(http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/belgium/liege_sclessin2.jpg)

Not as tall as SJP but those stands show, great height can be achieved with overlapping tiers at steep angles. An extra one would give you the height of the Milburn.

The smaller stand looks quite similar to the old Milburn Stand so that stadium is a good example.



Title: Re: SJP development plans that never happened/future development debate
Post by: Stevie on Monday 10 July 2006, 11:43:44 PM
3 tier stands that don't back out like the Milburn or Leazes:

Stade de Sclessin

(http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/belgium/liege_sclessin1.jpg)

(http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/belgium/liege_sclessin2.jpg)

Not as tall as SJP but those stands show, great height can be achieved with overlapping tiers at steep angles. An extra one would give you the height of the Milburn.

The smaller stand looks quite similar to the old Milburn Stand so that stadium is a good example.




I've been outside that stadium, it looks huge and imposing but it only seats 29,000.