Bystanders

Hello Plebs,

Long time lurker here. Why am I writing? Firstly to wish you luck and congratulate you on the time you're having at the moment. I was never Rafa's biggest fan in the past, but there's no question something special is going on here at the moment. I can feel my old optimism bubbling, but it's uncomfortable somehow.

Here's why. I couldn't say I'm part of this club anymore. As I said to someone the other day, I hated Pardew before it was cool - the way he was appointed sickened me - and broadly speaking that's when I accepted I had to treat NUFC under Ashley, and football more generally, as it wanted to be treated - as an entertainment purchase. So I chose to stop being a customer, it was the only way the free market would learn. I didn't want to play a part in myself and others getting mugged off when - after we'd gone through the inevitable Pardew destruction - dreams were brought back to life in Division 2 and new heroes were found, as they are being now, before everything was once again shattered with the usual propaganda, accounting tricks and 'greedy cunt' drivel. It was meant to be a hibernation until Ashley left, but it turned out football wasn't that interesting without the emotional investment, and the upshot of it was that although I've kept an eye on things, I've pretty much lost touch and my opinions are based on mainstream opinions nowadays - probably wrong therefore.

So, this post was largely prompted by the Rafa thread, but didn't seem quite right for it. It's not intended as a merchant of doom thing, warning you off enjoying this promotion season, because really half the point is that it's not my business now. I'm genuinely glad about this little miracle, it's the kind of thing you live for as a supporter, and I would've liked to be in it too, I'm just not going to be.

It was weird losing a part of my life I'd had since I was 5 or so, the game is a culture, so you pretty much lose a way of talking to some people. Now, I wonder how many people are in a similar position to me, I'm sure there'll be a handful at least - people who didn't so much just stop going to matches but basically pulled out, people who feel the deal between football and supporters is broken, even if there are still good guys and moments in the game. Know anyone in a similar predicament?

Under the latter years under pardew I rarely even celebrated our goals, even when I was in the ground, I was that disillusioned with nufc. This year is different, I bought my first ST in years when Rafa announced he was staying. Reason being, I also wasn't his biggest fan in the past, I always thought he was abit arrogant- But I totally trust him in that there was no way he'd stay here unless he had concrete assurances on the workings of the club.

Still hate ashley, will take alot of time (and success) to forgive what he's done to this club (repeatedly) but for now I'm trying to stay optimistic and I'm celebrating goals again! I also love singing Rafa Benitez!

Fuck off mag

Not quite sure what you're actually asking or getting at.

I would guess getting back into it is kind of like the Thomas Wolfe title - "you can't go home again." Home is really a when, not a where. It sounds like the discomfort is because you see something to like about the game again, and you want it to be the way it was but it never can be, not now. So you either have to love it for how you see it now or not?

Nice to see you again mate, I often see you lurking and wonder why you stopped posting.

I pretty much feel exactly the same. I keep watching and hoping the emotion will return but I'm not sure, certainly while Ashley is around, even then I'm far from certain I could get fully back on board at all.

It hurts because I'm someone who fought for change more than most but by the time it came it was too late.

Some level of emotion has returned given Rafa, and, well, actually winning a few games... but it'll never be the same as it was for me. Not sure if due to Ashley/Pardew or just a natural aging process where I'm less enamoured with a sport played by rich men with no tie to the city they represent.

Hello Rich...?

Not quite sure what you're actually asking or getting at.

 

I would guess getting back into it is kind of like the Thomas Wolfe title - "you can't go home again." Home is really a when, not a where. It sounds like the discomfort is because you see something to like about the game again, and you want it to be the way it was but it never can be, not now. So you either have to love it for how you see it now or not?

Yeah, you're pretty much spot on. Like you say, you're in or you're not, and that's why I called this thread Bystander.

Was just a ramble, effectively containing different messages for different audiences. Some will remember me (hello Wullie ), some won't, some will care, some will wonder what the hell I'm on about. Thought the thread might create space for a different kind of conversation for anyone who's a bit off the beaten track. And as I said, it was partly just me giving a nod to people who are on the journey and saying enjoy the ride.

Nice to see you again mate, I often see you lurking and wonder why you stopped posting.

 

I pretty much feel exactly the same. I keep watching and hoping the emotion will return but I'm not sure, certainly while Ashley is around, even then I'm far from certain I could get fully back on board at all.

 

It hurts because I'm someone who fought for change more than most but by the time it came it was too late.

Maybe kids will fix it? (congratulations by the way). Like Semtex says, you wonder if it's ageing, but my gut feeling says not. I don't strictly blame the rich disinterested players, because they've always been around - I think they're just people, some are good, some are bad. I do think football itself is gone though - even if Ashley disappeared tomorrow, at the end of the day the other teams we'd be playing and the (Premier) league itself are also run by tossers in the interests of anyone but us.

Still... I would be happier if I didn't feel like I was missing out on something good

Some level of emotion has returned given Rafa, and, well, actually winning a few games... but it'll never be the same as it was for me. Not sure if due to Ashley/Pardew or just a natural aging process where I'm less enamoured with a sport played by rich men with no tie to the city they represent.

Fully agree with the bit in bold.  I do often wonder how much of it is to do with getting so pissed off with football over the last few years and how much of it is down to just getting older.  I don't really get the urge to go once or twice a month and spend my whole weekend and half my week's wages, on a trip up to the North East. 

Definitely enjoying it again and love the positivity surrounding the club.  It's been a long time since it has been like that, with everyone seemingly pulling in the same direction.

I know what you mean about it being more than Ashley. The recent takeovers of most of the top two divisions by foreign investors makes me feel very disillusioned about English football. Not every club can be successful and when a lot of these Chinese (for example) conglomerates get bored of pumping money into Wolves and West Brom for little reward, I wonder whether some of these clubs will just be left to rot.

Foreign players is one thing but once you've got foreign players, managers, owners, in what way does the club represent Wolverhampton or West Bromwich anymore?

The emotion is definitely different for me, it's more of a stale marriage than a passionate love affair now, I still care and enjoy the good bits but it's not my everything like it once was.

I was the same but it was more Pardew who ruined it for me as opposed to Ashley. I hated, and still hate, the corporate greed that football is all about nowadays.

Ashley started off my hatred for NUFC and I then, as you suggested, stopped enjoying most football without the emotional attachment. But then the Pardew era came along and it was a different level - he was on my tele box every Saturday telling me what I should be thinking and when I should be applauding/cheering, what I should expect from the club and it killed my love for the club/game. He was a woeful excuse of a football manager but it was more the off the field stuff that killed me off - he just didn't get this club or it's fans at all.

I never attended a single game for around 3 years until I surrendered on Boxing day against Everton. We got beat in the last seconds, I never got excited nor disappointed, and it pretty much vindicated my absence from SJP. There was nothing there - I didn't care that McClaren was hopeless and that we were clearly spiraling towards an inevitable relegation. But then I'd go out on a weekend, get pissed, and start talking football with my match going mates. I ended up realising that I do still care - I'm just trying my best not to.

I went to Rafas first game at Leicester, same shite but let's give it a chance I thought - he can't perform miracles over night. As the season came to its climax, I started sitting in the bar cheering every time we scored. I don't what it was but I'd went from saying "I hope we go down, the bastards over there deserve to be in the conference. I want numerous relegations" to hoping we'd stay up. I think this may have something to do with the fact that it was either us or Sunderland who would go down.

In the Summer, Rafa agreed to take on the job full time and there was a buzz, an excitement among my match going friends who couldn't wait for the season to start. I agreed to attend Fulham away, Rafas first game since taking on the full time role. I'd attended 3 games in over 3 years since the beginning of my sabbatical and we'd lost all the games 1-0. I've since been to Wolves at home in the cup and Norwich at home in the league. The Norwich game will stay in my memory for a long, long time. I definitely had the buzz back. I talked about the game in the pub, at work and to taxi drivers for a couple of weeks after. It was glorious.

I've admitted I can't let it go. I'm enjoying it at the minute. It feels like we're becoming a football club again - we have a goal that seems to be in relation to football once more and not for business interests (although I understand both go hand in hand). I'm not fully back on board - I've only been to three games this season but I've certainly enjoyed my return. In the next month or so I'm attending Hull away, Forest away and Burton Albion away. I'm really looking forward to standing at Burton Albion with a smallish away following - I imagine it'll be like falling in love with football all over again.

I kind of wish I could give it up, but I've accepted I can't. I've also accepted it'll likely go tits up again very soon with Ashley in charge - c'est la vie.

the club is stable, its a bit more fun going to watch them now, from top to bottom all is steady 

I'm back in all for Rafa, really. He deserves it for giving this to us. Also accepted that my current enjoyment is extremely precarious as its entirely dependent on him hanging around; there's no greater structure in place behind him, it's all still Ashley. His exit would probably kill me off football for good.

I know what you mean about it being more than Ashley. The recent takeovers of most of the top two divisions by foreign investors makes me feel very disillusioned about English football. Not every club can be successful and when a lot of these Chinese (for example) conglomerates get bored of pumping money into Wolves and West Brom for little reward, I wonder whether some of these clubs will just be left to rot.

 

Foreign players is one thing but once you've got foreign players, managers, owners, in what way does the club represent Wolverhampton or West Bromwich anymore?

I know what you mean on the last point re foreign, but to go a little further, I know we both agree foreign anybodies can represent the club properly - Solano, Dabizas, even Benitez... just so long as they're not that Cockney scum we all hate like Lee, Ferdinand and Hughton of course. But it's more about the disconnection that is actively encouraged nowadays - the sit down, pay up and plug Wonga attitude.

We got beat in the last seconds, I never got excited nor disappointed, and it pretty much vindicated my absence from SJP. There was nothing there - I didn't care that McClaren was hopeless and that we were clearly spiraling towards an inevitable relegation. But then I'd go out on a weekend, get pissed, and start talking football with my match going mates. I ended up realising that I do still care - I'm just trying my best not to.

Know exactly what you mean. Think I must just have tried a bit harder than you! But yours is a nice story. I'm not up for coming along while actively expecting it all to collapse though. I don't demand success, but I do demand a little bit of hope for a happy ending, and I don't really see myself having that for years to come - by which time probably too much water will have passed under the bridge and I won't recognize anyone in the game.

Not for me like. I was never going to let an incompetent oaf like Ashley ruin the club for me. Because that's how I see him. As someone out of his depth. As opposed to the Evil overlord who wants to ruin everything.

I ended up cancelling my season ticket as I couldn't stand watching pardew any more which obviously is down to the fat man, I was leaving games early even if we were winning (as in half time early), just wasn't enjoying anything about it.

I'm actually following us again now, even coming back on here ... found myself screaming at the telly again and genuinely buzzing off games.  Still sticking to my guns that I won't be back at SJP until the fat man's gone but it's really f***ing hard at the minute!  He has a long way to go before I can believe he has the clubs best interests at heart, and I'm not too sure he'll be able to last that long before monumentally f***ing up again. We'll see.

I mean, Ashley is an appalling human being but a few of our previous owners weren't great either. There's always the looming Ashley-provoked disaster around the corner, but as long as he leaves Rafa to it I'm basically back on board.

No it'll never be exactly like the Keegan days but that was pretty unique and I was just a kid. There is a still such a lot to love about Newcastle.

On a slightly-related note, I'm actually not looking forward to being back in the PL all that much. It gets a bit too ridiculous sometimes.

Wilson's point about yelling at the TV is an interesting one.  I used to be guilty of getting far too carried away during games.  But on Sunday, I wasn't even that arsed when we scored. 

I think and hope, that it is more to do with getting used to winning at this level. Not because I have lost my love for the club, after years of not caring and even actively wanting us to lose.

My last live game moment was the 69th minute of the Cardiff home game, when my dad and I walked out, having cancelled our season tickets in the January. Although the root of it was Ashley, had there been a decent team to watch, organised and putting in effort, then we would have stayed. I too laughed when the opposition scored under Pardew, although my disillusionment was more or less coupled with a move abroad, so it made it easier to keep my distance.

I dropped down to watching maybe one game in four on TV, when it didn't interfere too much with anything else going on in my life. I wouldn't say I had gone as far as a mate of mine (Luton fan) who has zero interest now, mainly driven by the money in the game and what he perceives is a corrupt sport, but I was starting to become disconnected from the club.

Despite relegation, I got re-energised to a degree by Benitez. As much as it signalled a departure from the failing blueprint, that turned into something more tangible when he decided to stay on and I was really anticipating the Fulham game. This weekend is my first trip back to the UK since June and I'll be cramming as much NUFC in as possible - straight to the match from the flight, then tickets for the beamback, Forest on the TV and then the Brum game before returning home. I actively jumped up and celebrated the goals on Sunday for the first time in years.

I'll always have a deep suspicion of Ashley, but I feel I'm back at 90% of what I felt for the club before the disillusionment kicked in, probably around the time Keegan was forced out. My dad is now going to virtually every game again now too, but on a match per match basis rather than with a season ticket.

I wasn't ever so disillusioned I would lose interest. Instead, the love turned to hate and I got some twisted enjoyment from watching us lose during the period we plunged the depths under Pardew and Carver. I have felt that before though and it's not a good feeling.

I'm experiencing it all from afar but when I did live at home and I was a season ticket holder - through Bobby and souness eras, the lack of atmosphere in the ground at times was really disheartening. Atmosphere changing and overall apathy ha increased massively across the leagues as a result of the TV. For many people, the Pardew/Ashley era has just made people realise that we are consumers first now, and fans second.

However, part of it will also be growing up. When I was younger I used to wonder why my dad wasn't into it as much as me, even though he was a regular on the terraces. I guess things like football aren't as important when you get on a bit.

Having said all of that, I'm finding that I'm moving into a different cycle. I don't go as mad as I used to when we score, or lose the plot like I have done at away games, but I definitely still enjoy it. At the end of the day, I still love football, I love the routine, I love the city, and I love having it to talk about. But It isn't everything. Excited by Rafa and this current team because it is just about pride in the club for me, which equates to pride in where I'm from.

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Nice post, well summed up.

Feel the ease of this division comment is true though. I was a lot more jumpy and nervous through games early on this season. I'm a bit relaxed now.