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Author Topic: EU Referendum - the Aftermath  (Read 366540 times)

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Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15325 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 06:10:10 PM »
For all the talk of disenfranchised voters being offered nothing, there is a forgotten 48% who are similarly  being ignored. That can't be good for long term poltical participation.

there was a caller on five live this morning saying the country will be divided until the remainers accept the result and we move on.

:lol: Good luck with that. I give it about 10-15 years.


If in 2-3 years our economy is on the up- and the euro economies tank-or other countries follow us and bin it off ,will they move on then?

I'll have to ask them.

But I'd be surprised, unless it's a massive upswing on the economy front. There'd have to be some monumental event for me to change my mind, at least.

But for the record, it depends upon your definition of "accept". I accept the result, despite my misgivings on the existence of such a referendum, but I'm nowhere near being at peace with it.
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Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15326 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 06:10:20 PM »
Where have all the people who supported the Iraq War gone? :icon_scratch:  15 years ago it was a 50-50 split, battlelines drawn right across the internet millions of people ranting about it.  Now you can't find anyone who admits supporting it at the time, never mind as viciously as we saw back then.  Wasted hours on US Yahoo News boards being called a libtard for not believing in WMD, or being called a soap-dodging traitor at demos in the UK.  Now a suspiciously similar demographic is pointing to Blair's involvement in Iraq as to why soap-dodging remoaners need to shut up, and telling libtards in the US that the CIA and US media can't be trusted on Trump because they were wrong about WMDs.  I'm tempted to believe these folk didn't vote for John Kerry or Al Gore.

BlufPurdi

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Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15327 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 06:15:34 PM »
I've said in the past on here that I supported the war at the time.  Still went on the marches like. :lol:  Which is why I have little faith in protests at all.
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

Darth Crooks

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Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15328 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 06:31:28 PM »
I agree with him tbf. Though you'd have probably got less controversy and better reception if you'd got the speech from Sauron instead.

Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15329 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 06:36:43 PM »


There's a lot of truth to that.  It goes both ways though.  The calls for a second referendum weren't without precedent, just about every country in the EU that has had EU-related referenda (have I used that right? :lol:) have had two on the same issue.  Largely when the results were too close, but not exclusively.  I'm not actually calling for another, but I accept it wouldn't be out of the question.  Ask a Leave voter though?  And they liken it to f***ing treason.



I'd have no problem with another referendum if I thought it meant anything other than more smarmy t***s rubbing their hands together and pointing their thumbs, this way and that way.

I say we have a daily referendum:

Everybody logs in and gives their decision, and you don't need to log in again until you change your mind. Keep a running total and when it drops to only 39% in favour we leave.

BlufPurdi

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Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15330 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 06:56:29 PM »
I agree with him tbf. Though you'd have probably got less controversy and better reception if you'd got the speech from Sauron instead.

That's all it is really.  Blair is not a stupid guy.  I think he sometimes border on the delusional when it comes to the ME and religion, but certainly domestically, he's got a sound mind when it comes to his views on the country.  Labour issues also would be one I think he's lost his mind with.  He doesn't brush up with the rank and file like he used to, so there's an acceptable reason for that detachment.
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15331 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 07:42:04 PM »
I can't help but admire Blair for sticking his neck out and leading this campaign tbh. His popularity is incredibly low, but i agree with pretty much all he said today. The best thing that can come from this, is it results in a general election, from which nobody can argue over the terms of our exit (or whether we reserve the result).
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Porn where a guy driving a taxi gets lasses in his taxi to shag him. For some reason he proper hockles on her fanny then licks it up.

OpenC

  • NN953999
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15332 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 07:46:15 PM »
Time for general election is long gone; if we had one now, the Tories would walk it IMO.  The opposition is all over the place.

Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15333 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 07:48:51 PM »
Time for general election is long gone; if we had one now, the Tories would walk it IMO.  The opposition is all over the place.

Perhaps yes, but nobody could argue with the direction we take afterwards.
What's FakeTaxi?
Porn where a guy driving a taxi gets lasses in his taxi to shag him. For some reason he proper hockles on her fanny then licks it up.

BlufPurdi

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Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15334 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 07:49:02 PM »
Time for general election is long gone; if we had one now, the Tories would walk it IMO.  The opposition is all over the place.

Absolutely. :thup:
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

BlufPurdi

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  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15335 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 07:49:25 PM »
Time for general election is long gone; if we had one now, the Tories would walk it IMO.  The opposition is all over the place.

Perhaps yes, but nobody could argue with the direction we take afterwards.

Well we could, because our voting system is a farce.  Particularly why I've not understood why leftist or Labour voters have been banging on about having an election.  Remember, we're in this position because a party that got quarter of the overall electorate votes is seen as a majority.
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

Shay's Given Tim Flowers

  • Stephen f***ing Hawkinson
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15336 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 07:56:43 PM »
It's a pretty basic principle. No party has a mandate as to how to implement Brexit. The last prime minister to lead his party in a general election lost a referendum and resigned. If you don't think people should be able to vote with their feet rather than just take an unelected pm's programme for Britain up the tail pipe then so be it. But to say an election shouldn't take place because of the result is about as undemocratic as it comes. May as well just all pack up.

Shay's Given Tim Flowers

  • Stephen f***ing Hawkinson
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15337 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 07:58:11 PM »
Not to mention a GE would solve the corbyn problem.

BlufPurdi

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Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15338 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 07:59:55 PM »
Well see that's the thing, I don't agree that the Tories don't have a mandate.  I thought it was a lot of s*** when they used that attack on Brown and I think it is now when it's used on the Tories.  They don't have a mandate to steam ahead with an aggressive withdrawal from the EU, but they've got one to be the party governing us.  I actually don't see how an election gives anyone a mandate for Brexit.  It should be an all-inclusive event, not one subject to ideologically obsessed political parties ramming it down the rest of the nation's throats.

My point about the system being f***ed is it really won't solve anything in terms of people coming to terms with the result and potential actions we take.  People will still be p*ssed, people will resort to what I just have about the voting system, and it's all rancour once again.  And justifiably so, I say.

Brexit simply shouldn't be a one party issue.  No matter whether they have a genuine proportionally represented majority or a FPTP-styled majority.
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15339 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:01:57 PM »


I've already talked about this, so I'm not 'turning a blind eye' to it, Greece was a basket case, as was Ireland. The UK also was not a member of the EU currency.
When Cameron took over, the economy was in growth.
It was the policies enacted by the Tories that drew us into recession.

You cant see a correlation between all the countries in the EU and ourselves running rotten austerity programs, we all have massive deficits, while the countries with a surplus are not suffering as much pain. 

You don't think this is organised?

It's mostly cause and effect. If you institute hardcore austerity, you're going to hurt the economy. Government spending is 40+% of GDP. Cut government spending by 5% and GDP automatically drops by 2% with it, which in turn decrease tax revenues. And the national debt and interest payments also rise as a % of GDP/government budget. And then there are the knock-on effects of companies and individuals following suit and cutting investment/spending.

The right way to tackle debt is by growing GDP, usually by increasing the deficit short-term to fund increased government spending. Especially when borrowing has been incredibly cheap. A deficit doesn't really matter if GDP is growing faster than debt.


And this is why large swathes of people across Europe are fcking hacked off as they've been crushed and people wonder why they are voting for right wing parties...Your left, left of centre, centre, right of centre are telling people to vote for more of the same and people are not having it anymore.

The debt mountain is being kicked down the line and people see their kids futures as crushed before they get a chance.

The problem is neo-liberalism gimp, not the EU. The answer is not to bring the EU to its knees or leave as we're doing, the answer is to drive change. But then we're told that's not possible by the same people who helped cause the crash and drive austerity that this can't be done so I guess that's that. The message has been subverted.


How do we drive change tho?  Nobody (people who run EU) was that interested until we (UK) had a referendum which everyone though remain would win, it was only when the leave vote won that change was talked about and how they might have things wrong.

If the UK had of voted to remain I think it would have been full steam ahead as is.
I'll admit I'm no officionado on the inner workings of the EU but I find it hard to accept it simply can't happen.
It probably has to now with Brexit and the right moving in but its taking 10 years and recent events to shake it up.
Any different from national politics in that sense? Always has to get to the worst point to force change, still not seeing it as a reason for leaving/breaking up the EU. Never have.

May be you haven't been affected by the whole melt of it.  :dontknow:
I've been directly affected by the shameful immigration policies in place in this country if that counts. Austerity-wise the industry I've spent most of my adult life in is on its knees and I've spent 18 months out of work, have no pension and dwindling prospects in said industry. Does I qualify?
So raise your fists and march around
Dont dare take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or i'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Sleep now in the fire

Shay's Given Tim Flowers

  • Stephen f***ing Hawkinson
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15340 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:03:09 PM »
Well see that's the thing, I don't agree that the Tories don't have a mandate.  I thought it was a lot of s*** when they used that attack on Brown and I think it is now when it's used on the Tories.  They don't have a mandate to steam ahead with an aggressive withdrawal from the EU, but they've got one to be the party governing us.  I actually don't see how an election gives anyone a mandate for Brexit.  It should be an all-inclusive event, not one subject to ideologically obsessed political parties ramming it down the rest of the nation's throats.

My point about the system being f***ed is it really won't solve anything in terms of people coming to terms with the result and potential actions we take.  People will still be p*ssed, people will resort to what I just have about the voting system, and it's all rancour once again.

But there was a manifesto with brown. Now there is a vacuum following the leave vote people should be allowed to choose their representation for this seismic change in political direction.

BlufPurdi

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Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15341 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:04:53 PM »
Hmm, disagree.  But I know what you mean and accept what you're getting at.  We either have fixed term parliaments, or we don't.  They won to govern the UK till 2020.  Simple as that, for me.  Even when Corbyn's Labour were within 4 or 5 points of the Tories, I still didn't want an election.  It's nowt to do with the dismal prospects and everything to do with political and economic stability.  Said the day after the referendum I didn't want an election.  There's been far too many of these events in the UK.  It's been nonstop since Indyref and the lack of stability has, along with Brexit itself, put the economy at serious risk.  Even if things are improving in certain industries, they're certainly not in others.
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

OpenC

  • NN953999
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15342 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:14:04 PM »
Aye, agree with bluf on that. It's not the position I want to be in, but we elect parties, not PMs.

The time for GE was when Cameron went, but none of the opposition had the fight in them to push and lobby for it, which was a f***ing disgrace.

We get one now, all we'll get is an embarrassing call for the SNP to take the rest of the UK with them [emoji38]

Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15343 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:17:30 PM »
the next general electioneering starts in 18 months anyway :lol:

BlufPurdi

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  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15344 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:19:23 PM »
the next general electioneering starts in 18 months anyway :lol:

Don't think it does like.  I could be wrong.  Why would it be starting in September 2018?
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15345 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:21:35 PM »
the next general electioneering starts in 18 months anyway :lol:

Don't think it does like.  I could be wrong.  Why would it be starting in September 2018?

dont they always start making their arguments for like 18 months before a GE- maybe just feels like it :lol:

BlufPurdi

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  • Speaking truth to stupid since 2005.
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15346 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:22:32 PM »
Nah, I think we're more streamlined than the US.  PMs usually only go to the Queen to notify her, whatever they call the process, about 6 months before the election date.  Then they disband parliament a few months later.

Again, could be wrong but that's how I've always understood it. 
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.
Student says " I am very discouraged. What should I do?" Master says, "encourage others."
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.
It takes a wise man to learn from his mistakes, but an even wiser man to learn from others.
This is what should be done. By one who is skilled in goodness, and who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing that the wise would later reprove.

madras

  • Philosoraptor
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15347 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:26:08 PM »
I can't help but admire Blair for sticking his neck out and leading this campaign tbh. His popularity is incredibly low, but i agree with pretty much all he said today. The best thing that can come from this, is it results in a general election, from which nobody can argue over the terms of our exit (or whether we reserve the result).

I can't understand why Blair's comments are headline news. Ex PM with no power and little influence reckons those that want to remain in the EU should try to persuade those that voted leave to think again. Much more is being made of this than is really warranted.
Bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant.

Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15348 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:26:10 PM »
Nah, I think we're more streamlined than the US.  PMs usually only go to the Queen to notify her, or whatever they call the process, about 6 months before the election date.  Then they disband parliament a few months later.

Again, could be wrong but that's how I've always understood it. 


oh yeah i know officially. Im pretty sure with whats gone on and Camerons fixed terms. We will be seeing the chatter of an upcoming GE by the end of 18. At least in the media anyway.


edit in fact since I typed this Ive had images of the whole of '19 being a big brexit episode of The thick of it.

OpenC

  • NN953999
Re: EU Referendum - the Aftermath
« Reply #15349 on: Friday 17 February 2017, 08:29:29 PM »
I can't help but admire Blair for sticking his neck out and leading this campaign tbh. His popularity is incredibly low, but i agree with pretty much all he said today. The best thing that can come from this, is it results in a general election, from which nobody can argue over the terms of our exit (or whether we reserve the result).

I can't understand why Blair's comments are headline news. Ex PM with no power and little influence reckons those that want to remain in the EU should try to persuade those that voted leave to think again. Much more is being made of this than is really warranted.
It's a complete non-story :thup: from the bits I heard it was more a long and calculated push at Corbyn than anything else IMO