Topic: Overperforming or Where we Belong?

[QBG]

We deserve to be where we are. We've only lost 2 games at home all season and our Away form is better than that of the majority of teams in the League.

[Sifu]

The way I see it is that we deserve to be where we are. This is primarily a results game and for the most of this season, we've been getting the right results, so our position is somewhat justified. The teams around us, at times, have simply not been getting the results that they should be getting (the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal not being able to beat some of the more lesser teams for example).

Having said that, some of our performances have been really crap so there is that hint that we are overachieving (eg. the Blackburn game at Ewood which we really did not deserve to win). Atm though, I think we are certainly the "best of the rest" (outside the top 6). But the fact of the matter is that, we are 5th - we are where we are, the table doesn't lie.

With a few additions in the summer (and hopefully no outgoings), we can really push on and prove, in seasons to come, that we can be a formidable force and sustain challenges for the top 7.

[madras]

can't be arsed to go through it all but the OP is wrong. "overperforming or where we deserve to be" is more apt.

[Stottie]

I think we got some lucky results early in the season, Fulham missing point blank headers at SJP etc. but things have pretty much evened out since.

We're not completely outplaying teams as you may expect a team with our league position to do so, but Ba doesn't need lots of chances to score.

For a wacky stat on our defence, of the 31 goals conceded, 21 were in our 6 defeats. No-one has beaten us by scoring less than 3 goals! In the other 18 games played, we've only conceded 10 goals, for a 12 win, 6 draw record.
Perhaps you could say our defence plays well three games out of four.

[1964]

I think we got some lucky results early in the season, Fulham missing point blank headers at SJP etc. but things have pretty much evened out since.

We're not completely outplaying teams as you may expect a team with our league position to do so, but Ba doesn't need lots of chances to score.

For a wacky stat on our defence, of the 31 goals conceded, 21 were in our 6 defeats. No-one has beaten us by scoring less than 3 goals! In the other 18 games played, we've only conceded 10 goals, for a 12 win, 6 draw record.
Perhaps you could say our defence plays well three games out of four.

We completely outplayed Man Utd but I take the point

[leffe186]

 

8% have said we should be challenging top 4, think we should be looking at 6th/7th every season and go from there, still along way from the CL place teams IMO.

I've always been of the school of thought that the risk of investing heavily in order to push on for European places (well, top four really) would never happen under Ashley and I still think that however, even he must have been tempted to do the maths on the potential returns on investing £xm to get us up there with a shout this season.

Will we ever be closer? Would investing another say £15m this window have given us enough of a push to get us over the line into fourth? What would that be worth to us?

It's obviously a risk Vs reward scenario but I wonder if it crossed their minds? That said, using the same logic, would the club even want Europa League qualification?

Just look at Stoke and Fulham and the additional matches have effectively killed their league placings for limited financial return and probable loss of money due to the extra players needed - in Stoke's case at least.

Well this is the crux. Any talk of "investing" 15M (or whatever) to challenge for the CL/Europe is a little spurious. As we (Spurs) showed last year, unless you have magic money and can pay players 100K a week, much of the CL money gets swallowed up in the bonuses needed to keep players like Modric, VDV and Bale. The Europa League doesn't generate all that much money for a club anyway. So when you pay 15M for, say, two new players, all the CL will do is pay for that and the increased wage bill. There might be some left over, but unless your squad is extremely strong you're unlikely to qualify again the following year (unless you go out really quickly). You will then probably need to replace at least one or two of the really good players that got you there in the first place, because a bigger fish will have snapped them up.



Christ, I'm negative. Put it down to nervousness about tonight.

It really does come down to money . If your income is in the top seven, then you should be in the top seven. I don't think you've overperformed given your squad. Arsenal and Man U (even though they're up there) have underperformed because of injuries and some peculiar transfer business. Chelsea have underperformed because they're in transition. Liverpool have underperformed because they are (a) in transition and (b) some peculiar transfer business. Us and yourselves have performed pretty much as we should I reckon. The top seven as it is now should stay roughly where it is for a while unless Fair Play actually means anything. If either of us have a good season we'll challenge Top Four (presuming you have a decent Summer transfer window). If we have a bad season then Everton or Sunderland will be sniffing around.

[Cronky]

I wouldn't say over-performing. Over-achieving, yes.

The factor that's hard to quantify is how many points Krul has rescued for us. But I'd say he's been the difference between mid-table and top six for us.

Having said that, we now have a great platform from which to progress.

[Sewelly]

Krul hasn't 'rescued' points. He's a brilliant goalkeeper and goalkeepers are part of the team.

[Dave]

Krul hasn't 'rescued' points. He's a brilliant goalkeeper and goalkeepers are part of the team.

Aye, always makes me laugh that some seem to make out that goalkeepers making good saves isn't fair or something. Yes ideally they'd have nowt to do, but how many winning teams have w*** keepers?

[wormy]

Krul hasn't 'rescued' points. He's a brilliant goalkeeper and goalkeepers are part of the team.

Aye, always makes me laugh that some seem to make out that goalkeepers making good saves isn't fair or something. Yes ideally they'd have nowt to do, but how many winning teams have w*** keepers?

Over the season I've heard (not on this forum) that we'd be f***ed without Ba banging in the goals. We'd be f***ed without Krul's saves. We'd be f***ed without Colo's composure holding our defence together. We'd be f***ed without Tiote being a beast in the middle. At what point does this individual brilliance saving us from being mediocre make us a reasonably good team?

[michaelfoster]

those 9% who said we should be pushing for top 4 every season, what are their reasons for this?

Id say we were behind

Man City
Man Utd
Chelsea
Tottenham
Arsenal
Liverpool

we should be aiming for 7th as in terms of squad depth we are miles behind the ones above.

[bowlingcrofty]

Ridiculous to think that if we'd beaten Chelsea at home we'd be 5 points clear in a Champions League spot!

[Dr Venkman]

Ridiculous to think that if we'd beaten Chelsea at home we'd be 5 points clear in a Champions League spot!

that was the most frustrating game i've seen us play for some time

[Cronky]

Krul hasn't 'rescued' points. He's a brilliant goalkeeper and goalkeepers are part of the team.

Aye, always makes me laugh that some seem to make out that goalkeepers making good saves isn't fair or something. Yes ideally they'd have nowt to do, but how many winning teams have w*** keepers?

Over the season I've heard (not on this forum) that we'd be f***ed without Ba banging in the goals. We'd be f***ed without Krul's saves. We'd be f***ed without Colo's composure holding our defence together. We'd be f***ed without Tiote being a beast in the middle. At what point does this individual brilliance saving us from being mediocre make us a reasonably good team?

You lot can be a bunch of vultures at times.

Okay, it's a valid point that just because a keeper is making a big contribution doesn't mean that we don't deserve the success. The point I was wanting to put across though was that, in terms of the quality of our outfield football, we've been no better than mid-table at best. The other six teams in the top seven are still a class above us in that respect.

None of the other players you've mentioned, as individuals, have been as important to our current position.

[Neil]

You deserve to be where you are. I think you've got a bit fortunate in the sense of, quite a few times I've seen you this season I've not been impressed and it's been a case of just getting over the line as opposed to playing convincingly better than the opposition. But that's about where any sense of you being fortunate to be where you are ends. A very good team spirit, a solid defence and talented goalkeeper, and a striker who has been bang in form consistently.

Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal - none of them can say they have all of those components. That's why you're competing well with them.

Of course, it's an entirely different question to ask whether you think in a broad footballing sense you deserve to be 5th, which is perhaps what Cronky is getting at. But everything's relative, isn't it? You can only finish in front of and behind what's in front of you.

[leffe186]

You can only finish in front of and behind what's in front of you.

That's easy for you to say.

[Neil]

[eliassenfredrik]

Krul hasn't 'rescued' points. He's a brilliant goalkeeper and goalkeepers are part of the team.

Aye, always makes me laugh that some seem to make out that goalkeepers making good saves isn't fair or something. Yes ideally they'd have nowt to do, but how many winning teams have w*** keepers?

Over the season I've heard (not on this forum) that we'd be f***ed without Ba banging in the goals. We'd be f***ed without Krul's saves. We'd be f***ed without Colo's composure holding our defence together. We'd be f***ed without Tiote being a beast in the middle. At what point does this individual brilliance saving us from being mediocre make us a reasonably good team?

You lot can be a bunch of vultures at times.

Okay, it's a valid point that just because a keeper is making a big contribution doesn't mean that we don't deserve the success. The point I was wanting to put across though was that, in terms of the quality of our outfield football, we've been no better than mid-table at best. The other six teams in the top seven are still a class above us in that respect.

None of the other players you've mentioned, as individuals, have been as important to our current position.

Liverpool absolutely no way. On par maybe, but a class above is a lie.

[Beren]

Krul hasn't 'rescued' points. He's a brilliant goalkeeper and goalkeepers are part of the team.

Aye, always makes me laugh that some seem to make out that goalkeepers making good saves isn't fair or something. Yes ideally they'd have nowt to do, but how many winning teams have w*** keepers?

Over the season I've heard (not on this forum) that we'd be f***ed without Ba banging in the goals. We'd be f***ed without Krul's saves. We'd be f***ed without Colo's composure holding our defence together. We'd be f***ed without Tiote being a beast in the middle. At what point does this individual brilliance saving us from being mediocre make us a reasonably good team?

You lot can be a bunch of vultures at times.

Okay, it's a valid point that just because a keeper is making a big contribution doesn't mean that we don't deserve the success. The point I was wanting to put across though was that, in terms of the quality of our outfield football, we've been no better than mid-table at best. The other six teams in the top seven are still a class above us in that respect.

None of the other players you've mentioned, as individuals, have been as important to our current position.

Agreed

I don't think Cronky was at all being dismissive of a goalkeeper's contribution to the team, just reflecting on the balance of footballing play and how often he has been called upon to excel. That isn't diminishing the role of a keeper, but it does raise question marks over the contribution of others in the team IMO. (Yes, I know the defence plays with the goalkeeper and they're all one big happy unit that you can't dissect, separate out and they ought to be judged on a whole etc, but you can.. you just can.. )

[The College Dropout]

On paper we should be 7th so I guess we are slightly over-achieving.

But on the field we are doing what we are meant to. Beating the majority of sides at home and drawing against some of the better ones. Beating weaker teams away or picking up a point.

Down our spine we have the best in the league outside the top 6. Krul-Colo-Cabaye-Tiote-Ba, that's huge. A lot of teams don't have that. A real finisher upfront with great movement and ability. Commanding keeper who rarely makes mistakes. A smart defender nicking attacks before they really happen. And a real athletic midfield pairing with real technical quality and strength.

Throw in the likes of Raylor, HBA, Jonas, Santon, Guthrie who all have some level of real footballing ability it's all very tasty. I literally fancy us against anyone at home. We have genuine ability.


So yeah, slightly over achieving but we are no mugs. Defensively solid with a very hard working team. Everyone fully fit from 1 to 11 are real grafters (maybe not so much the French lads who can play RM). So on that foundation, a lot is possible in football when you've got the quality we have.

[Dave]

I wasn't referring to Cronky in particular btw.

[Ian W]

Football isn't played on paper.

Shazam.

[Parky]

None of those options really. We're doing better than pretty much anyone expected, but considering the players at our disposal I don't think it's a freak really. I also think we're one of the best non-'top teams' in the league, which is quite something considering we were relegated only a few years back.

Depending on what happens in the summer (which obviously depends on what happens in the rest of this season) I would expect us to be challenging for European spots again next year; in and around the top 7.

That's basically it. With the way the first 11 has turned out, we are where we should be. Arguably the best CM pairing in the league bar ManC. If we can keep the key players no reason we can't go to the next level.

[nemtizz]

Football isn't played on paper.

Shazam.

Powerful!

[matt1978uk]

Like someone said earlier, the table doesn't lie, if you asked me this question when we were 3rd earlier in the season I would have laughed it off as overperformance, but we've stood the test of time now and proven that even when we play badly we can still grind out results with hard work, determination and that never say die attitude we've grown into. Previous seasons (relegation season as case and point) saw us roll over toe up when the pressure was on, but since we got relegated we never give up, Arsenal 4-4 game being a perfect example. All the top teams, Manyoo included (even 5-10 years ago) struggle to get a grip on some games but with resilience and positive attitude have ground out results.
We need to stay in and around the top 7 until the end of the season to assure our top players we are going somewhere and back that up with a few quality additions in the summer, then yes, why can't we crash the "big 4s" party?? Europe next season would be the stepping stone we need though, onwards and upwards!!