Topic: "A Racist Tory Underbelly"? Rivers of Blood, Part 2

[GM]

A story that slipped quietly under the news radar coverage as far as I'm concerned (maybe I've just been too busy)...

Migrant row Tory candidate quits

A Conservative Party candidate has stepped down after a row over his comments, in a newspaper, that Enoch Powell was "right" on immigration. Nigel Hastilow, who was to stand in Halesowen and Rowley Regis, resigned after meeting the Tory party chairman. Party chairman Caroline Spelman said "he chose to resign", adding that it was a "very honourable decision".

Labour minister Hazel Blears accused the Tories of "dithering" over whether to sack Mr Hastilow before he resigned. The communities secretary said: "David Cameron has still not condemned Mr Hastilow's words, and he must do so without further dithering."

I have been here once before when William Hague was party leader and I have no wish to go there again
Nigel Hastilow

Following her meeting with the former candidate, Mrs Spelman said: "Nigel says in his letter of resignation that he's sorry that his remarks about immigration have undermined the good work that David Cameron has done on this sensitive issue, and also on other issues." She went on: "He himself felt that if these remarks had caused offence, he was concerned, having made a mistake before of this kind as a parliamentary candidate that it might happen again, and he felt himself that it was better that he should go." But the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP) said Mr Hastilow had simply been expressing views held by "millions" of voters.

Mike Nattrass, who represents the West Midlands area for the party, said: "It is important that this debate on immigration is taken further so we can have an open and honest discussion on this issue."

'Explain himself'

Enoch Powell was sacked from the Conservative shadow cabinet after a controversial speech in 1968 bemoaning the effects of immigration. Mr Hastilow made the comments in a column for the Express and Star newspaper in Wolverhampton - where Mr Powell had been the MP at the time of his 1968 speech. The Parliamentary candidate, a former editor of the Birmingham Post, wrote:

"When you ask most people in the Black Country what the single biggest problem facing the country is, most say immigration. Many insist: 'Enoch Powell was right'. Enoch, once MP for Wolverhampton South-West, was sacked from the Conservative front bench and marginalised politically for his 1968 'rivers of blood' speech, warning that uncontrolled immigration would change our country irrevocably. He was right. It has changed dramatically."

Following his meeting with Mrs Spelman he said he was "very sorry" if his remarks had undermined "the progress David Cameron has made on the issue of migration".

'Great caution'

He has been in the news before for his outspoken comments - in 2001, when he was the Tory candidate for Birmingham Edgbaston, he wrote on his website that the party was a "lost cause" - and was quoted by then Labour PM Tony Blair in the Commons.

In his resignation statement on Sunday, Mr Hastilow said: "I have been here once before when William Hague was party leader and I have no wish to go there again. So, with regret and my continuing support for the future, I hereby tender my resignation as parliamentary candidate for Halesowen and Rowley Regis. I thank my friends in the constituency association for their support." A Conservative spokesman said: "We have accepted Mr Hastilow's resignation and wish him well for the future."

'Public views'

Asked about Mr Hastilow's comments earlier, shadow chancellor George Osborne told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show: "Candidates of any party - Conservative, Labour, Liberal Democrat - have to exercise great caution in the language they use about immigration."

And speaking to ITV1's Sunday Edition, shadow home secretary David Davis said the comments were "very unwise" and the constituency party should "think very hard" about how they expected their candidate to behave. "You cannot just stumble around throwing out comments which are insensitive or inflammatory," he said.

But Mary Docker, chairwoman of Mr Hastilow's local Conservative association, said earlier she did not think he had done anything wrong. She told BBC News 24: "He's basically just raising issues that have been raised with him when he has been canvassing the area. All he is doing is just relaying the views of the public, which is what a politician should do."

Liberal Democrat chief of staff Edward Davey said the incident raised "serious questions, both about the Conservative Party's selection procedures and the views of at least some of their grass roots members".

Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk_politics/7077934.stm
Published: 2007/11/04 19:51:55 GMT © BBC MMVII

Peter Hain, Labour's Work & Pensions Secretary was later heard muttering the phrase "racist Tory underbelly"...good work there, Peter...

But is there more to this story than meets the eye? Is this more evidence of political correctness gone mad, or evidence of Dave Cameron trying to stamp out the dying cinders of a once racist, but now radically reformed and hip and trendy, Conservative party?

Is it disturbing to see that there is no longer any room, no tolerance of divergent viewpoints, within the main three political parties - the one which tend to form government, councils, people who rule our daily lives? Especially when it comes to migration?

As far as I'm concerned I think we're in a totally different era as regards migration from that which Enoch Powell lived in. The sort of migration we see in today's global economy is overpowering, irresistible, irrefutable...nothing's going to change it, it is a fact of modern life. So tolerance is required: tolerance of other cultures, of non-native tongues being heard in our high streets, of communities forming in our towns and cities where English is sometimes not even the second language, sometimes not even spoken at all. Or is this simply taking things too far? Whatever happened to standing up for the British/English way of life?

What was it that was so terribly, terribly wrong about what Nigel Hastilow said?

[GM]

On the other hand of course...

'D'YOU KNOW WHAT? I'M SUCH A f***ing RACIST' SAYS TORY MP

CONSERVATIVE leader David Cameron is facing fresh embarrassment after a senior backbencher described himself as 'an enthusiastic and committed racialist'.


Powell: brilliant intellectual and racist s***

Dennis Hatton-Finch, MP for Minchinhamptonsteadbury, has refused to resign after writing an article for his local newspaper entitled: 'Aren't Africans Ghastly?'.

"My article in the Minchin Courier is a serious contribution to the debate about the absolute ghastliness of Africans," said Mr Hatton-Finch. I was simply saying how awful these foreigners are and why they should stay in their own stinky little countries. Does that make me the new Enoch Powell? Possibly, but I tell you what, you should hear me at home. It's all 'n-word' this and 'd-word' that. I'm such a total bigot."

Mr Hatton-Finch added: "They come over here with their huge penises, beating us at football and making me feel like a girl. And it's not just the Africans. The other day a Polish chap turned up at my door and told my wife he would flush her pipes for £75. "I mean, really. Coming over here with their tool kits and their huge penises and flushing my wife without an appointment."

The work and pensions secretary Peter Hain said: "This proves beyond doubt that each and every member of the Conservative Party wipes their dirty bottom with Nelson Mandela toilet paper."

Source/Click Here

Bit of light hearted banter but it does also reaffirm the point, funnily enough.

[Incognito]

Most people believe that Enoch Powell's speech was prophetic,but you can't say so in public.Seems to me political correctness can take away the freedom of speech.This guy said what he believed and has been sacked by Cameron,who probably agrees with him,just to curry favour with todays over p-c media.

[Incognito]

On the other hand of course...

'D'YOU KNOW WHAT? I'M SUCH A f***ing RACIST' SAYS TORY MP

CONSERVATIVE leader David Cameron is facing fresh embarrassment after a senior backbencher described himself as 'an enthusiastic and committed racialist'.


Powell: brilliant intellectual and racist s***

Dennis Hatton-Finch, MP for Minchinhamptonsteadbury, has refused to resign after writing an article for his local newspaper entitled: 'Aren't Africans Ghastly?'.

"My article in the Minchin Courier is a serious contribution to the debate about the absolute ghastliness of Africans," said Mr Hatton-Finch. I was simply saying how awful these foreigners are and why they should stay in their own stinky little countries. Does that make me the new Enoch Powell? Possibly, but I tell you what, you should hear me at home. It's all 'n-word' this and 'd-word' that. I'm such a total bigot."

Mr Hatton-Finch added: "They come over here with their huge penises, beating us at football and making me feel like a girl. And it's not just the Africans. The other day a Polish chap turned up at my door and told my wife he would flush her pipes for £75. "I mean, really. Coming over here with their tool kits and their huge penises and flushing my wife without an appointment."

The work and pensions secretary Peter Hain said: "This proves beyond doubt that each and every member of the Conservative Party wipes their dirty bottom with Nelson Mandela toilet paper."

Source/Click Here

  haven't seen something as satirically funny as that for ages.

[indi]

I suspect that this bloke is simply doing what his local party chairwoman said he was and reflecting the views of a significant proportion of the Tory party's grassroots membership. It always kind of surprises me that people who think like this seem to be embarrassed to admit to their own views, if that's what they think then they why aren't they open about it? If you believe that you're right then you should be able and willing to justify your opinion to others who disagree, shouldn't you?

[GM]

I suspect that this bloke is simply doing what his local party chairwoman said he was and reflecting the views of a significant proportion of the Tory party's grassroots membership. It always kind of surprises me that people who think like this seem to be embarrassed to admit to their own views, if that's what they think then they why aren't they open about it? If you believe that you're right then you should be able and willing to justify your opinion to others who disagree, shouldn't you?

Absolutely. I've got no particular issue with what he was saying either, but that's by the by...what I find more than just a little peturbing is the way all three major parties are so intolerant of hearing anything other than a "love sees no colour" like attitude to immigration/race etc issues. I think this is genuinely one area where we NEED to have a very open and honest debate. What the three parties are doing in effect is stifling that debate, which serves nobody's interests other than a state which is hellbent on homogenizing its populace.

[Incognito]

I suspect that this bloke is simply doing what his local party chairwoman said he was and reflecting the views of a significant proportion of the Tory party's grassroots membership. It always kind of surprises me that people who think like this seem to be embarrassed to admit to their own views, if that's what they think then they why aren't they open about it? If you believe that you're right then you should be able and willing to justify your opinion to others who disagree, shouldn't you?

Absolutely. I've got no particular issue with what he was saying either, but that's by the by...what I find more than just a little peturbing is the way all three major parties are so intolerant of hearing anything other than a "love sees no colour" like attitude to immigration/race etc issues. I think this is genuinely one area where we NEED to have a very open and honest debate. What the three parties are doing in effect is stifling that debate, which serves nobody's interests other than a state which is hellbent on homogenizing its populace.

The press also bats for this team though and all parties have to embrace the press these days for their own good.Its all about personality and not policy these days i think.

[Parky]

I suspect that this bloke is simply doing what his local party chairwoman said he was and reflecting the views of a significant proportion of the Tory party's grassroots membership. It always kind of surprises me that people who think like this seem to be embarrassed to admit to their own views, if that's what they think then they why aren't they open about it? If you believe that you're right then you should be able and willing to justify your opinion to others who disagree, shouldn't you?

Absolutely. I've got no particular issue with what he was saying either, but that's by the by...what I find more than just a little peturbing is the way all three major parties are so intolerant of hearing anything other than a "love sees no colour" like attitude to immigration/race etc issues. I think this is genuinely one area where we NEED to have a very open and honest debate. What the three parties are doing in effect is stifling that debate, which serves nobody's interests other than a state which is hellbent on homogenizing its populace.

Christ you're beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist GM. 

[indi]

I suspect that this bloke is simply doing what his local party chairwoman said he was and reflecting the views of a significant proportion of the Tory party's grassroots membership. It always kind of surprises me that people who think like this seem to be embarrassed to admit to their own views, if that's what they think then they why aren't they open about it? If you believe that you're right then you should be able and willing to justify your opinion to others who disagree, shouldn't you?

Absolutely. I've got no particular issue with what he was saying either, but that's by the by...what I find more than just a little peturbing is the way all three major parties are so intolerant of hearing anything other than a "love sees no colour" like attitude to immigration/race etc issues. I think this is genuinely one area where we NEED to have a very open and honest debate. What the three parties are doing in effect is stifling that debate, which serves nobody's interests other than a state which is hellbent on homogenizing its populace.

The press also bats for this team though and all parties have to embrace the press these days for their own good.Its all about personality and not policy these days i think.

I think that it's more a case of self-censorship than anything else. If you're going to come out and say that kind of thing then you've got to expect to get quite a lot of criticism, but if you think you're right that shouldn't put you off. If you are right then you should be able to counter any criticism and win people over to your point of view. If you feel that strongly about something, but can't justify it to anyone else then you should try and justify it to yourself, and if you can't do that, then you should reassess your view. I wonder why so few people who feel like this bloke are confident enough in their views to express them to others, surely if their beliefs are right then they should be able to win people over to their point of view with the strength of their argument.

[Incognito]

I suspect that this bloke is simply doing what his local party chairwoman said he was and reflecting the views of a significant proportion of the Tory party's grassroots membership. It always kind of surprises me that people who think like this seem to be embarrassed to admit to their own views, if that's what they think then they why aren't they open about it? If you believe that you're right then you should be able and willing to justify your opinion to others who disagree, shouldn't you?

Absolutely. I've got no particular issue with what he was saying either, but that's by the by...what I find more than just a little peturbing is the way all three major parties are so intolerant of hearing anything other than a "love sees no colour" like attitude to immigration/race etc issues. I think this is genuinely one area where we NEED to have a very open and honest debate. What the three parties are doing in effect is stifling that debate, which serves nobody's interests other than a state which is hellbent on homogenizing its populace.

The press also bats for this team though and all parties have to embrace the press these days for their own good.Its all about personality and not policy these days i think.

I think that it's more a case of self-censorship than anything else. If you're going to come out and say that kind of thing then you've got to expect to get quite a lot of criticism, but if you think you're right that shouldn't put you off. If you are right then you should be able to counter any criticism and win people over to your point of view. If you feel that strongly about something, but can't justify it to anyone else then you should try and justify it to yourself, and if you can't do that, then you should reassess your view. I wonder why so few people who feel like this bloke are confident enough in their views to express them to others, surely if their beliefs are right then they should be able to win people over to their point of view with the strength of their argument.

I believe there are a lot of the population who would vote  for a politician with these beliefs.

[indi]

I suspect that this bloke is simply doing what his local party chairwoman said he was and reflecting the views of a significant proportion of the Tory party's grassroots membership. It always kind of surprises me that people who think like this seem to be embarrassed to admit to their own views, if that's what they think then they why aren't they open about it? If you believe that you're right then you should be able and willing to justify your opinion to others who disagree, shouldn't you?

Absolutely. I've got no particular issue with what he was saying either, but that's by the by...what I find more than just a little peturbing is the way all three major parties are so intolerant of hearing anything other than a "love sees no colour" like attitude to immigration/race etc issues. I think this is genuinely one area where we NEED to have a very open and honest debate. What the three parties are doing in effect is stifling that debate, which serves nobody's interests other than a state which is hellbent on homogenizing its populace.

The press also bats for this team though and all parties have to embrace the press these days for their own good.Its all about personality and not policy these days i think.

I think that it's more a case of self-censorship than anything else. If you're going to come out and say that kind of thing then you've got to expect to get quite a lot of criticism, but if you think you're right that shouldn't put you off. If you are right then you should be able to counter any criticism and win people over to your point of view. If you feel that strongly about something, but can't justify it to anyone else then you should try and justify it to yourself, and if you can't do that, then you should reassess your view. I wonder why so few people who feel like this bloke are confident enough in their views to express them to others, surely if their beliefs are right then they should be able to win people over to their point of view with the strength of their argument.

I believe there are a lot of the population who would vote  for a politician with these beliefs.

I think you're probably right. Personally, I think that's a shame.

But I'd still rather that these people were open about their beliefs, even though I think they're wrong, because otherwise how can anyone hope to change their opinion?

They certainly aren't going to be able to change mine, if they're not going to talk to me about it.

[Incognito]

I suspect that this bloke is simply doing what his local party chairwoman said he was and reflecting the views of a significant proportion of the Tory party's grassroots membership. It always kind of surprises me that people who think like this seem to be embarrassed to admit to their own views, if that's what they think then they why aren't they open about it? If you believe that you're right then you should be able and willing to justify your opinion to others who disagree, shouldn't you?

Absolutely. I've got no particular issue with what he was saying either, but that's by the by...what I find more than just a little peturbing is the way all three major parties are so intolerant of hearing anything other than a "love sees no colour" like attitude to immigration/race etc issues. I think this is genuinely one area where we NEED to have a very open and honest debate. What the three parties are doing in effect is stifling that debate, which serves nobody's interests other than a state which is hellbent on homogenizing its populace.

The press also bats for this team though and all parties have to embrace the press these days for their own good.Its all about personality and not policy these days i think.

I think that it's more a case of self-censorship than anything else. If you're going to come out and say that kind of thing then you've got to expect to get quite a lot of criticism, but if you think you're right that shouldn't put you off. If you are right then you should be able to counter any criticism and win people over to your point of view. If you feel that strongly about something, but can't justify it to anyone else then you should try and justify it to yourself, and if you can't do that, then you should reassess your view. I wonder why so few people who feel like this bloke are confident enough in their views to express them to others, surely if their beliefs are right then they should be able to win people over to their point of view with the strength of their argument.

I believe there are a lot of the population who would vote  for a politician with these beliefs.

I suspect that this bloke is simply doing what his local party chairwoman said he was and reflecting the views of a significant proportion of the Tory party's grassroots membership. It always kind of surprises me that people who think like this seem to be embarrassed to admit to their own views, if that's what they think then they why aren't they open about it? If you believe that you're right then you should be able and willing to justify your opinion to others who disagree, shouldn't you?

Absolutely. I've got no particular issue with what he was saying either, but that's by the by...what I find more than just a little peturbing is the way all three major parties are so intolerant of hearing anything other than a "love sees no colour" like attitude to immigration/race etc issues. I think this is genuinely one area where we NEED to have a very open and honest debate. What the three parties are doing in effect is stifling that debate, which serves nobody's interests other than a state which is hellbent on homogenizing its populace.

The press also bats for this team though and all parties have to embrace the press these days for their own good.Its all about personality and not policy these days i think.

I think that it's more a case of self-censorship than anything else. If you're going to come out and say that kind of thing then you've got to expect to get quite a lot of criticism, but if you think you're right that shouldn't put you off. If you are right then you should be able to counter any criticism and win people over to your point of view. If you feel that strongly about something, but can't justify it to anyone else then you should try and justify it to yourself, and if you can't do that, then you should reassess your view. I wonder why so few people who feel like this bloke are confident enough in their views to express them to others, surely if their beliefs are right then they should be able to win people over to their point of view with the strength of their argument.

I believe there are a lot of the population who would vote  for a politician with these beliefs.

I think you're probably right. Personally, I think that's a shame.

But I'd still rather that these people were open about their beliefs, even though I think they're wrong, because otherwise how can anyone hope to change their opinion?

They certainly aren't going to be able to change mine, if they're not going to talk to me about it.

Me neither,and i totally agree with your post.

[GM]

Indi, are you saying you want to evangelise the anti-racist message to closet racists? Are you really so arrogant as to assume your supposedly non-racist viewpoint is correct, and anything divergent from the view you hold is wrong?

[GM]

...and in any case, I'm not sure I can see why what this Tory candidate was saying was judged to be quite so offensive?

Seems like you can't even invoke the memory of Enoch Powell without being branded a closet Nazi. Anyone who's studied British political history should know he was one of the best Prime Ministers we never had.

[ChezGiven]

We do get labour shortages in key areas. Someone also needs to clean the streets and do the menial work. Should be controlled though.

Alternatively we just do away with borders and live under one imperial umbrella.

[madras]

We do get labour shortages in key areas. Someone also needs to clean the streets and do the menial work. Should be controlled though.

Alternatively we just do away with borders and live under one imperial umbrella.

if the labour market is indeed a market doesn't it get distorted by bringing in extra labour in order to keep the cost down ?. if it's a true market shouldn't the wages increase till it's worthwhile doing the labour ?

[ChezGiven]

We do get labour shortages in key areas. Someone also needs to clean the streets and do the menial work. Should be controlled though.

Alternatively we just do away with borders and live under one imperial umbrella.

if the labour market is indeed a market doesn't it get distorted by bringing in extra labour in order to keep the cost down ?. if it's a true market shouldn't the wages increase till it's worthwhile doing the labour ?

Sort of. In fact the migration of labour is a rational reaction to the price signal (minimum wage or whichever is relevant) and is just 'suppliers' of labour entering the market.

Migration is a supply curve shift i think...? 

[madras]

We do get labour shortages in key areas. Someone also needs to clean the streets and do the menial work. Should be controlled though.

Alternatively we just do away with borders and live under one imperial umbrella.

if the labour market is indeed a market doesn't it get distorted by bringing in extra labour in order to keep the cost down ?. if it's a true market shouldn't the wages increase till it's worthwhile doing the labour ?

Sort of. In fact the migration of labour is a rational reaction to the price signal (minimum wage or whichever is relevant) and is just 'suppliers' of labour entering the market.

Migration is a supply curve shift i think...? 

but in the past the supply was limited by immigration controls

[Parky]

More tea vicar?

[80]

He didn't actually say immigration had been a bad thing. We all know it has changed the place, whether that's for better or for worse is up for debate. Or not, as the case may be.

Market States, bloody hell...

[Parky]

He didn't actually say immigration had been a bad thing. We all know it has changed the place, whether that's for better or for worse is up for debate. Or not, as the case may be.

Economically it has been a resounding success there isn't even a debate about it. And there are still thousands of more jobs going in London than in Berlin or Paris.

[ChezGiven]

He didn't actually say immigration had been a bad thing. We all know it has changed the place, whether that's for better or for worse is up for debate. Or not, as the case may be.

Economically it has been a resounding success there isn't even a debate about it. And there are still thousands of more jobs going in London than in Berlin or Paris.

Thats got nothing to do with immigration though.

[Parky]

He didn't actually say immigration had been a bad thing. We all know it has changed the place, whether that's for better or for worse is up for debate. Or not, as the case may be.

Economically it has been a resounding success there isn't even a debate about it. And there are still thousands of more jobs going in London than in Berlin or Paris.

Thats got nothing to do with immigration though.

A flexible labour pool ie Polish builders and Bangladeshi garment workers nothing to do with immigration...8 or so of Asian background in the top 20 richest new busnissmen in London or summat iirc.

[ChezGiven]

He didn't actually say immigration had been a bad thing. We all know it has changed the place, whether that's for better or for worse is up for debate. Or not, as the case may be.

Economically it has been a resounding success there isn't even a debate about it. And there are still thousands of more jobs going in London than in Berlin or Paris.

Thats got nothing to do with immigration though.

A flexible labour pool ie Polish builders and Bangladeshi garment workers nothing to do with immigration...8 or so of Asian background in the top 20 richest new busnissmen in London or summat iirc.

They have just as many immigrants in France and Germany.

Asian businessmen may choose the UK to invest in because of employment and tax law, not because of immigration policy.

[GM]

Yeah, like the vague attempts to steer this thread off into macroeconomic discussions but I want to bring it back to basics: We'd all agree that uncontrolled immigration has changed the nature of our society forever now, right?

What we've got is more of a "salad bowl" effect than a melting pot - and I'm not sure the ingredients of this particular salad bowl are necessarily mutually complementary...they just don't go together...in fact, to extend the use of analogies still further, we've got more of a powder keg than a salad bowl...