Topic: Time for English Independence?

[BlufPurdi]

Lets look at it in more simple terms.

Does England actually gain ANYTHING from being in the union?  England minus the others is basically the UK with less people. 10 million less infact, leaving the English taxes to be redistributed around the remaining 51 million.

Seems win win to me for England.

England wouldn't have as much influence on the world stage as Britain does.  We'd be seen as a nation that couldn't even get on well enough with people that are in every way identical to us.

We'd be a farce.  It's the other nations that would gain from a split, they'd be seen a brave, independent, "new" nations.  We'd still be the old imperialist bastards that no-one likes.  And especially not so now that we're simply "English".

If England gave up NI, rather than be a new nation, we would just rejoin the rest of Ireland, so keep Scotland and Wales, let NI go

Sounds like an, err, exciting prospect?  You've just got over the troubles man!

[BlufPurdi]

Lets look at it in more simple terms.

Does England actually gain ANYTHING from being in the union?  England minus the others is basically the UK with less people. 10 million less infact, leaving the English taxes to be redistributed around the remaining 51 million.

Seems win win to me for England.

England wouldn't have as much influence on the world stage as Britain does.  We'd be seen as a nation that couldn't even get on well enough with people that are in every way identical to us.

We'd be a farce.  It's the other nations that would gain from a split, they'd be seen a brave, independent, "new" nations.  We'd still be the old imperialist bastards that no-one likes.  And especially not so now that we're simply "English".

Its all well and good saying how we and the other nations would be 'seen' but economically they would be f***ed while England would most probably thrive.

Depends who you talk to.  I don't know much about Wales, but Scotland would survive alright.  You don't seem to realise, they don't want to be England.  They'd be happy to build their own future, their own way.  It's debateable how well Scotland does out of the Union as it is, they could well be better off out of it. 

[elbee909]

Lets look at it in more simple terms.

Does England actually gain ANYTHING from being in the union?  England minus the others is basically the UK with less people. 10 million less infact, leaving the English taxes to be redistributed around the remaining 51 million.

Seems win win to me for England.

England wouldn't have as much influence on the world stage as Britain does.  We'd be seen as a nation that couldn't even get on well enough with people that are in every way identical to us.

We'd be a farce.  It's the other nations that would gain from a split, they'd be seen a brave, independent, "new" nations.  We'd still be the old imperialist bastards that no-one likes.  And especially not so now that we're simply "English".

Its all well and good saying how we and the other nations would be 'seen' but economically they would be f***ed while England would most probably thrive.

Depends who you talk to.  I don't know much about Wales, but Scotland would survive alright.  You don't seem to realise, they don't want to be England.  They'd be happy to build their own future, their own way.  It's debateable how well Scotland does out of the Union as it is, they could well be better off out of it. 

Social security payments to Scotland have outstripped oil revenues etc. many times over so maybe we'd all be better off.

[Decky]

Sounds like an, err, exciting prospect?  You've just got over the troubles man!

There is always a risk the troubles may come back as long as NI is part of the UK. As the IRA still do recruit and even patrol armed around housing estates etc over here. Alot of the provos are against the current state of NI as they see it as a cop out by Sinn Fein. So i can see it all kicking off again somewhere down the line for sure. However, if NI was given up by Britain, EVENTUALLY trouble would be gone as new generations would be born into a united Ireland.

It seems daft, but as long as NI is part of the UK one side will never back down, if it isnt then one side will eventually just die out. Obviously now there is no point in the UK government giving up NI now as it would cause trouble in times of peace, but if it ever kicks off again, they should definately consider it.

[pedro111]

Lets look at it in more simple terms.

Does England actually gain ANYTHING from being in the union?  England minus the others is basically the UK with less people. 10 million less infact, leaving the English taxes to be redistributed around the remaining 51 million.

Seems win win to me for England.

England wouldn't have as much influence on the world stage as Britain does.  We'd be seen as a nation that couldn't even get on well enough with people that are in every way identical to us.

We'd be a farce.  It's the other nations that would gain from a split, they'd be seen a brave, independent, "new" nations.  We'd still be the old imperialist bastards that no-one likes.  And especially not so now that we're simply "English".

Its all well and good saying how we and the other nations would be 'seen' but economically they would be f***ed while England would most probably thrive.

Depends who you talk to.  I don't know much about Wales, but Scotland would survive alright.  You don't seem to realise, they don't want to be England.  They'd be happy to build their own future, their own way.  It's debateable how well Scotland does out of the Union as it is, they could well be better off out of it. 

Well, they would all survive, but in what state is the question.

Scotland would have to fund many things on their own like healthcare and an armed forces without the English taxpayers vast help so maybe long term they would be ok but taxes would skyrocket initially probably.

[indi]

I and my whole family have Irish passports though

Well that would make you Irish and thereby prove my point.

[DJ_NUFC]

I just wanna see the UK partitioned and Newcastle to become the new Kashmir.

So I voted 'yes.'

[GM]

I just wanna see the UK partitioned and Newcastle to become the new Kashmir.

So I voted 'yes.'

What a completely moronic thing to say.

[madras]

ITS time for Tyne to Declare independance from Wear,..

lets go back to Northumberland and Durham.

durham was originally part of the greater northumbria

 

yes but was it british , or UKanian, well....was it , or was it Duranian

Northumbrian, it was a kingdom in its own right.

[madras]

if independence came about right now it would be interesting given how much the rest of the union would want for their banks and local issues,in particlar the rise in taxes by an SNP administration (many commentators north of the border have been saying for a while that the idyll the SNP tried to create was unsustainable) which led to the labour victory in the last by-election.

[80]

Lets look at it in more simple terms.

Does the South East actually gain ANYTHING from being in England?  The South East minus the others is basically England with less people. 30 million less infact, leaving the Southern taxes to be redistributed around the remaining 20 million.

Seems win win to me for the South East.

Sew and ye shall reap.

[80]

Sounds like an, err, exciting prospect?  You've just got over the troubles man!

It seems daft, but as long as NI is part of the UK one side will never back down, if it isnt then one side will eventually just die out.

What makes you so confidant of distinction between the two sides? Why aren't militant IRA-style sentiments going to die out? What ensures covenant-style sentiments will?

If England gave up NI, rather than be a new nation, we would just rejoin the rest of Ireland, so keep Scotland and Wales, let NI go

That's the worst case scenario for you. Your best bet of a Southern-orientated Northern Ireland/United Ireland is of the whole UK splitting up and becoming federalised segments of European state.

[DJ_NUFC]

I just wanna see the UK partitioned and Newcastle to become the new Kashmir.

So I voted 'yes.'

What a completely moronic thing to say.

Erm... also a joke.



Goodness me, I seem to be rubbing people up the wrong way all day today on here, it seems.

[Decky]

Sounds like an, err, exciting prospect?  You've just got over the troubles man!

It seems daft, but as long as NI is part of the UK one side will never back down, if it isnt then one side will eventually just die out.

What makes you so confidant of distinction between the two sides? Why aren't militant IRA-style sentiments going to die out? What ensures covenant-style sentiments will?

The IRA will die out because it will no longer have a place, the objective of the IRA is to achieve a united Ireland, if that exists then the IRA will only exist in the history books from that day onwards.

If England gave up NI, rather than be a new nation, we would just rejoin the rest of Ireland, so keep Scotland and Wales, let NI go

That's the worst case scenario for you. Your best bet of a Southern-orientated Northern Ireland/United Ireland is of the whole UK splitting up and becoming federalised segments of European state.

How is it worse case scenario? We would come part of the Republic of Ireland and go from there, it wont be peachy at first, but over years things would fall into place and sort themselves out and it will all have been well worth it. Also I dont think the UK splitting up and becoming federalised segments of a European state is the only way NI will be released from England, especially when Scotland being given independence may be within the next 10 or 20 years.

[indi]

Decky do you not think that the Loyalist terror-groups, would behave in exactly the same way as you suggest the IRA would?

[GM]

It's funny, you see with the recent economic woes hitting the Scottish economy particularly hard at its financial centre with what's happened/happening to HBoS & RBS, and the rest of the associated financial sector in Edinburgh, I get the sense that the possibility of Scottish Independence, which had looked increasingly likely a year ago when Brown was losing popularity, may actually be drifting away now...

[madras]

It's funny, you see with the recent economic woes hitting the Scottish economy particularly hard at its financial centre with what's happened/happening to HBoS & RBS, and the rest of the associated financial sector in Edinburgh, I get the sense that the possibility of Scottish Independence, which had looked increasingly likely a year ago when Brown was losing popularity, may actually be drifting away now...

very much what i posted on the previous page. does it seem up there that the SNP has rode it's wave and is now having to maintain it's idyll which is proving tricky ?

[Decky]

Decky do you not think that the Loyalist terror-groups, would behave in exactly the same way as you suggest the IRA would?

I believe that as the way things are, if NI was given to the Republic, then they would cause havoc. However they would eventually die out, we wouldnt have war for decades as new generations would be born into the united Ireland, also the police and Irish Army would eventually put a stop to any violence aswell. If NI is part of the UK, then there is always that risk of the troubles starting again, as one side will still fight for what they believe in. If Ireland is united, then the republican side would back down. The loyalist side wouldnt fight to remain part of the UK anymore because the state has already been given up. They would of course cause trouble because of that outcome, which brings me back to my earlier points in this post.

I do hope one day though that NI can join the ROI peacefully. I am by no means a republican btw, i dont support any form of violence. I just want my country to be free, the same way any of you guys would if another country owned Northern England.

[madras]

Decky do you not think that the Loyalist terror-groups, would behave in exactly the same way as you suggest the IRA would?

I believe that as the way things are, if NI was given to the Republic, then they would cause havoc. However they would eventually die out, we wouldnt have war for decades as new generations would be born into the united Ireland, also the police and Irish Army would eventually put a stop to any violence aswell. If NI is part of the UK, then there is always that risk of the troubles starting again, as one side will still fight for what they believe in. If Ireland is united, then the republican side would back down. The loyalist side wouldnt fight to remain part of the UK anymore because the state has already been given up. They would of course cause trouble because of that outcome, which brings me back to my earlier points in this post.

I do hope one day though that NI can join the ROI peacefully. I am by no means a republican btw, i dont support any form of violence. I just want my country to be free, the same way any of you guys would if another country owned Northern England.

it's not who "owns" your area it's the choices they make. i'd rather be ran from bulgaria if they made the right decisions than london making the wrong ones.

[80]

Sounds like an, err, exciting prospect?  You've just got over the troubles man!

It seems daft, but as long as NI is part of the UK one side will never back down, if it isnt then one side will eventually just die out.

What makes you so confidant of distinction between the two sides? Why aren't militant IRA-style sentiments going to die out? What ensures covenant-style sentiments will?

The IRA will die out because it will no longer have a place, the objective of the IRA is to achieve a united Ireland, if that exists then the IRA will only exist in the history books from that day onwards.

I'll go along with what you say will come of the IRA in a united Irish state (there will always be some diehards wanting to take things back to the Civil War days, but we can ignore them). You're not talking about what I'm talking about, though. I'm asking you why the IRA-types aren't going to go away now. Will they never back down? More to the point, will enough of them never back down to ensure they're worth paying a great deal of attention to? Conversely, why are you so certain the prods will 'see sense and settle down' once they're forced into an entity many of them don't (and I suggest won't) recognise? Why are they different to your neighbours?

If England gave up NI, rather than be a new nation, we would just rejoin the rest of Ireland, so keep Scotland and Wales, let NI go

That's the worst case scenario for you. Your best bet of a Southern-orientated Northern Ireland/United Ireland is of the whole UK splitting up and becoming federalised segments of European state.

How is it worse case scenario? We would come part of the Republic of Ireland and go from there, it wont be peachy at first, but over years things would fall into place and sort themselves out and it will all have been well worth it. Also I dont think the UK splitting up and becoming federalised segments of a European state is the only way NI will be released from England, especially when Scotland being given independence may be within the next 10 or 20 years.

I should've explained my last comment further. Unlike you, I don't see orange NI rolling over once they're ripped away from the UK as an inevitability. The best way of encouraging the most significant elements of them to make do with such a scenario would be to eliminate any hopes they might have of restoring things to how they 'should be'. They couldn't rejoin the UK if it didn't exist anymore - and more to the point, if no other Brits had any intent of recreating it. They'd be orphaned.

As for the EU, I didn't say it was the only way, I said it was the best way. It would subsume any Anglo-Irish business.

[80]

It's funny, you see with the recent economic woes hitting the Scottish economy particularly hard at its financial centre with what's happened/happening to HBoS & RBS, and the rest of the associated financial sector in Edinburgh, I get the sense that the possibility of Scottish Independence, which had looked increasingly likely a year ago when Brown was losing popularity, may actually be drifting away now...

Emulating Iceland no longer sounds such an appealing prospect.

[indi]

Decky do you not think that the Loyalist terror-groups, would behave in exactly the same way as you suggest the IRA would?

I believe that as the way things are, if NI was given to the Republic, then they would cause havoc. However they would eventually die out, we wouldnt have war for decades as new generations would be born into the united Ireland, also the police and Irish Army would eventually put a stop to any violence aswell. If NI is part of the UK, then there is always that risk of the troubles starting again, as one side will still fight for what they believe in. If Ireland is united, then the republican side would back down. The loyalist side wouldnt fight to remain part of the UK anymore because the state has already been given up. They would of course cause trouble because of that outcome, which brings me back to my earlier points in this post.

I do hope one day though that NI can join the ROI peacefully. I am by no means a republican btw, i dont support any form of violence. I just want my country to be free, the same way any of you guys would if another country owned Northern England.

But prior to independence was the whole of Ireland not a part of the UK and despite there having been generation after generation of people born within a united UK (so to speak), did not some of those people feel so strongly that they weren't part of it that they fought and died to secure it's independence. What about the generations of people born in NI (part of the UK remember) who have continued to feel like that and would class themselves as citizens of the Republic of Ireland, despite never having lived in that country. What makes you think that the Loyalists don't feel as strongly as the Republicans do? Looking from afar I simply can't see them going: "Oh well I guess that's the end of that then, take down the Union Jack, chuck away those orange sashes, let's get those curbstones painted green, white and orange." even if the UK ceded NI to the Republic. I mean those lot are more "British" than we are!

[80]

Decky do you not think that the Loyalist terror-groups, would behave in exactly the same way as you suggest the IRA would?

I believe that as the way things are, if NI was given to the Republic, then they would cause havoc. However they would eventually die out, we wouldnt have war for decades as new generations would be born into the united Ireland, also the police and Irish Army would eventually put a stop to any violence aswell. If NI is part of the UK, then there is always that risk of the troubles starting again, as one side will still fight for what they believe in. If Ireland is united, then the republican side would back down. The loyalist side wouldnt fight to remain part of the UK anymore because the state has already been given up. They would of course cause trouble because of that outcome, which brings me back to my earlier points in this post.

I do hope one day though that NI can join the ROI peacefully. I am by no means a republican btw, i dont support any form of violence. I just want my country to be free, the same way any of you guys would if another country owned Northern England.

You're really blinkered.

As for Loyalists giving up because the state had already given up, you are starting to touch on what I was saying. Nevertheless, the ROI has also given up its claims to NI (for the umpteenth time, admittedly, but then the mainland could always renew its interest as well...), and there's a discussion to be had over whether the Southern people actually want you - want to deal with all the provos who were in the game for power and not politics, want to finance the suppression of orange violence you admit will take place, want to embrittle the successful but delicate economy they possess with a relatively large quantity of unemployed, high-maintenance citizenry.

[GM]

It's funny, you see with the recent economic woes hitting the Scottish economy particularly hard at its financial centre with what's happened/happening to HBoS & RBS, and the rest of the associated financial sector in Edinburgh, I get the sense that the possibility of Scottish Independence, which had looked increasingly likely a year ago when Brown was losing popularity, may actually be drifting away now...

very much what i posted on the previous page. does it seem up there that the SNP has rode it's wave and is now having to maintain it's idyll which is proving tricky ?

Very much so. Not just having rode its wave but its luck too. Mind you, Salmond & Co still have the upper hand in so far as they can pull the "well, Westminster still hold all the purse strings" card out whenever they want, and the nationalist numpties will all buy into that hook, line and sinker...

Emulating Iceland no longer sounds such an appealing prospect.

Oh, the nats are still totally in love with Scandinavia, regardless of Iceland's financial meltdown. They only see the Icesave debacle as a blip in an otherwise unspoilt record of proving the mettle of a smaller country on the global stage.

[80]

Emulating Iceland no longer sounds such an appealing prospect.

Oh, the nats are still totally in love with Scandanavia, regardless of Iceland's financial meltdown. They only see the Icesave debacle as a blip in an otherwise unspoilt record of proving the mettle of a smaller country on the global stage.

A hell of a blip, though - and its the cautious-by-nature 'maybes' who they have to convince. The increasingly Keynsian sentiments of today's economists also militate against the small, too.