Author Topic: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.  (Read 1334 times)

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alex

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #25 on: Thursday 4 January 2007, 09:40:20 AM »
This is just another of many propaganda articles which tells lies about Mr Blair and his party.Dont just believe what you read.
Coming from you, that is hilarious  :lol:

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #26 on: Thursday 4 January 2007, 10:38:24 AM »
Quote
How is it the West's economies?

would we have went in if they didn't have the worlds 2nd largest supplies of oil ? and because the US had to get out of saudi as it was causing tension there...hey everyone hates saddam,we can base there to protect our supplies and we'll be seen as the good guys for kicking a tyrants arse.......didn't work out did it.

Typical of your hypocritical attitude towards us.
how is it hypocritical,more an honest assessment of the situation......why do you think the troops are there ?

So you're saying you'll fight for what you need... even if you invade other lands and kill their people?
yes.fighting for what you need is a lot easier to defend than political or religous dogma aswell.

i also think the reason it came to this is because of the wests foreign policy in the middle eastsince particularly since russia ceased to be a player(a few years before the curtain fell).

put bluntly,it's largely the wests fault the s*** you're in but it was left with little choice because of its earlier bad decisions.


It isn't really the 'the West' though is it? It is essentially America with the neo cons as the as the driving force behind policy. Looked at closely we can see that apart from the U.K. there has been minimal involvement from the rest of Europe and strong oppossiton from France and Germany.
'The West' is a term puroposefully coined by speech writers to give the impresssion of of joint action, like other vacuous terms like 'the coalition of the willing' etc. This is quite clearly U.S. foreign policy harking back to the Reagan era when the neo cons were learning their trade.

But we stray from the issues at hand. What we are essentially dealing with is a catastrophic failure of democracy. Two leaders who have lied or at the very least misled their countries into a war that is daily costing human lives on all sides and more importantly innocent civilians in Iraq.
Some 160.000 former U.S. soilders and ancillaries are on sick pay of $210 a month as a result of the two actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Their illness will never be confirmed by the Govt cause then they will be liable to claim heavy damages.

The U.N. has been grossly undermined as an arbitrator of common sense and the Geneva convention has been torn up and scattered to the four winds. The mass media in the U.S. aren't and never have been reporting the war in Iraq, they have been regurgitating the Pentagon and White house press releases...No one really knows what is happenning in Iraq. The general public are dizzy from terrorism scares and it seems monthly new revelations of danger to 'our way of life'.

Now this is the catch with all this gruesome merriment, spin and lies. We have created generations of hatred and fear. The people who have been damaged and killed have paid close attention to the 'lies' and the liars. Wars in the past that have essentially killed soldiers are now actually on the whole just killing civilians and destroying infastructure (all the better to rebuild for profits). Of course there are no rules in war....But now there will be no rules in Peace.

The bonds of internationalism that have taken generations to build are essentially broken, even lip service to some moral overview is no longer visible just empty rhetoric from leaderships that think they can get off the train and the past will be gilded and erased in their passing. It is not a matter of cynicism or pragmatism or economic realities, the very ties that bind us to other human beings are broken. I suspect as always what is coming will be highly unpredictable....But let no one claim surprise.
"I'm a competitor and I want to play every game, every minute. The manager knows what I'm thinking. He knows I want to play. He makes his choices and I have to respect them."But it's true we don't share quite the same philosophy. For him, it's more crosses, a bit of a more direct style, whereas I'm more the kind of player who likes to play short passes.
"I like to pass and move.. .."That is the kind of football I like. That's the philosophy I learned at the French academy at Clairefontaine." HBA

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #27 on: Thursday 4 January 2007, 10:52:38 AM »
aye - the last 4 years have destroyed relationships that took generations to build up

look at the Middle East - I hear that yer average 'merican never visit there anymore and Arabs are avoiding the USA like the plague

bloody disastrous
The rapturous, wild & ineffable pleasure of drinking at someone else's expense

Stubbs

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #28 on: Thursday 4 January 2007, 01:20:19 PM »
Why dont we appoint Parky's hero Castro as our prime minister? Then we'd get truth and justice.

alex

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 4 January 2007, 01:25:56 PM »
Why dont we appoint Parky's hero Castro as our prime minister? Then we'd get truth and justice.
That's Parky pwned with that pertinent interjection  :lol:

Ally

  • Retired admin
Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 4 January 2007, 01:31:05 PM »
Viva Fidel!
Most of our fans that get behind us and are fantastic. Those who don't should shut the hell up or they can come round to my house and I will fight them. Ian Holloway, Legend.

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #31 on: Thursday 4 January 2007, 01:47:50 PM »
he's deid
The rapturous, wild & ineffable pleasure of drinking at someone else's expense

kiwi

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #32 on: Friday 5 January 2007, 08:54:34 AM »
Parky, well said.

But the problems go deeper than what you have written.

Prior to WW1 US foreign policy was very limited and America was basically a political isolationist.
After WW1 the American industrial war capacity wasn't required, a series of natural mid west disasters then the Wall street crash plunged the USA into a recession.

Roosveldt and his party pulled America to the brink of recovery and Pearl Harbour / Declaration of War gave the final push. Post war the US had  massive industrial capacity which turned in two directions.
1. Development of military technology to counter the Russian threat - Cold War.
2. Expansion of American diplomacy to counter Communism - but a sort of Pax America.

In the far east, because of the changing world order, China developed militarily and gave support to North Korea (with Russia), Indonesia began local  colonial expansion, France failed to regain Vietnam.
Some clever dick in the Pentagon came up with the Domino Theory of Communist expansion and America spent decades supporting dictators who were anti communist. That they butchered their own people was not important in the greater scheme of things. Korea was a UN police action, everyone got involved and stalemate.
This encouraged the USA to send advisors to support the Vietnamese and hello another war.

What is important is that the USA lost in Vietnam and retired to give covert support where it best served American interests. But after Korea the rest of the world had enough which, by default left the USA as world police. After Korea the UN proved to be a total waste of time resolving conflict.
Saddam invades a little state and the UN steps in 90% American.

Just the odd skirmish with US involvement thereafter until Serb/Croat genocide and EUROPE stands back. The US eventually goes in with British assistance and token forces from elsewhere. But where are Germany, France - critiscising.

The pattern of US involvement (except covert) since Vietnam had been military prescence only or hands off. Unfortunately one of the areas it has been totally hands off is Israel. Bin Laden and his terrorists are fanatically anti Israel and realising they could put the fear of god into the USA by random acts of martyrdom brought down the World Trade Centre.

Bearing in mind that during the Gulf War Saddam slung a few rockets into Israel and these were known to be biological capable. Because the UN Inspectors were unable to give Iraq the all clear the worst case scenario was accepted by the CIA etc and MI whatever, not to be outdone, added its bits of mis information.

If you consider the politics of the whole instigation of war, I think there are several aspects to consider.
1.Britain is dependant on the USA for upgrade of our submarine missiles - no upgrade just expensive toys.
2. Britain has a large Muslim population. Immigrants usually vote Labour so there was a potential loss of votes if the case for War wasn't good enough.
3. The USA had been attacked and there had to be an enemy that could be destroyed. A President who can't be re elected, ultra right wing born again Christan, resurgence of God in the USA etc etc. All Bush needed, with control of Senate and Congress, was a plausible excuse and a degree of support. No support, no war.

The removal of Saddam had to happen. Perhaps spurred on by genocide on Serbia and Croatia, the attempted genocide of the Kurds the attack on Kuwait.  There was no real way to handle the removal well. The UN imposed sanctions and the Iraqi people suffered.

George HW Bush refused to attack Iraq as it (attack) was contrary to the UN resolution - it should have been done and twenty years of Iraqi suffering would have been averted.

Oh, I know there is the question of oil but its rather a red herring.

So there you have it. 50 years of incorrect foreign policy, 50 years of ineffectual UN, 50 years of Western Europe sitting on the fence and a major conflict, which can't be "won", caused by a bunch of disaffected muslim nutters.

Its a viewpoint.

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #33 on: Friday 5 January 2007, 10:48:23 AM »
Parky, well said.

Nice post from you too. But would like to take you up on some of the background concepts.

But the problems go deeper than what you have written.

Prior to WW1 US foreign policy was very limited and America was basically a political isolationist.
After WW1 the American industrial war capacity wasn't required, a series of natural mid west disasters then the Wall street crash plunged the USA into a recession.

Roosveldt and his party pulled America to the brink of recovery and Pearl Harbour / Declaration of War gave the final push. Post war the US had  massive industrial capacity which turned in two directions.
1. Development of military technology to counter the Russian threat - Cold War.
2. Expansion of American diplomacy to counter Communism - but a sort of Pax America.

In the far east, because of the changing world order, China developed militarily and gave support to North Korea (with Russia), Indonesia began local  colonial expansion, France failed to regain Vietnam.
Some clever dick in the Pentagon came up with the Domino Theory of Communist expansion and America spent decades supporting dictators who were anti communist. That they butchered their own people was not important in the greater scheme of things. Korea was a UN police action, everyone got involved and stalemate.
This encouraged the USA to send advisors to support the Vietnamese and hello another war.

What is important is that the USA lost in Vietnam and retired to give covert support where it best served American interests. But after Korea the rest of the world had enough which, by default left the USA as world police. After Korea the UN proved to be a total waste of time resolving conflict.
Saddam invades a little state and the UN steps in 90% American.

The thing is to banish from the mind this commonly purveyed myth of the U.S. as a kind of world policeman. They generally intervene on behalf of their own interests whether it be banana and sugar plantations or oil - or overthrowing democratically elected Govt in Nicaragua, Chile, El Salvador etc and soon to be turned over Venezuela. The CIA works for the Govt and gives the Govt just enough deniability to carry on and be able to sleep at night. America is actully the No.1 SUPPORTER OF TERRORISM in the world as has been the case in its support of brutal dictators and death squads worldwide. The U.S. now has a whopping 152 overseas bases to better organise their killing machine. Their projection of power and paranoia has now reached new heights with the doctrine of "Full Spectrum Dominance", which will include Space and the militarisation of Space which is a step that will threaten all mankind. Most of the latest space technology already up there or in development is nuclear powered.

Just the odd skirmish with US involvement thereafter until Serb/Croat genocide and EUROPE stands back. The US eventually goes in with British assistance and token forces from elsewhere. But where are Germany, France - critiscising.

There are so many sides to this, I haven't managed to pick out the good guys although tbf I will say 'we' with the help of the U.S. came out marginally on top in my calculations. But this conflict (still ongoing) is too complex to cover here.

The pattern of US involvement (except covert) since Vietnam had been military prescence only or hands off. Unfortunately one of the areas it has been totally hands off is Israel. Bin Laden and his terrorists are fanatically anti Israel and realising they could put the fear of god into the USA by random acts of martyrdom brought down the World Trade Centre.

I think most of us understand the projection of U.S. power whether it be covert (swine fever in Cuba is an old one) but the first signs that the U.S. basically attacks civilians as currently clearly shown in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. much prefers to attack countries that are basically defenceless hence their hesitation over Iran and N.Korea. It hasn't been 'hands off' in Israel, it has been very much hands on. Israel gets the largest foreign aid per capita from the U.S. of any country on the planet, more than the whole of Africa put together. In return they get to sell them F-16's and other paraphanalia of death. Bin Laden and the Taliban were an American invention and in turn the Northern Alliance under whom poppy production tripled. The very core of the U.S. is a black cold heart handing out death across the world and supporting chaos when it suits its own ends. It is a kind of hyper real construct with the masses having no clue on the whole what their Govt is upto. This is my main worry, the 'western psyche' on the whole has disengaged from the suffering of their fellow man across the planet. This hasn't happenned by chance, huge sections of the U.S. and U.K. media (not so much in Europe) have become nothing more than cheerleaders of Worldwide Death Inc. BLAIR and our boys have done nothing but help this catastrophe gain pace in fact chipping in with LIES of our own like the 45min warning.

Bearing in mind that during the Gulf War Saddam slung a few rockets into Israel and these were known to be biological capable. Because the UN Inspectors were unable to give Iraq the all clear the worst case scenario was accepted by the CIA etc and MI whatever, not to be outdone, added its bits of mis information.

Tenet resigned from the CIA cause he couldn't live with himself. He was actually one of the best Directors the CIA has ever had. He will be remembered as the man who lost the CIA the battle against the Pentagon (Cheney and Rumsfeld IMO War criminals). He let Cheney manipulate the hard intelligence on Iraq till it came to a point that they were basically LYING to congress and the U.N. It has come to light he didn't even read the speech that dupe Powell made to the U.N. filled as it was with LIES and truth bending. Nothing can stop the killing machine when it sees a profitable war on the horizon. The Yellow cake story which Blair and our boys backed up was a total fabrication. Most of the stuff about chemical weapons in Iraq came from two sources. 1) That world renonwned fraudster and liar CHALABI who will now have big say in running Iraq. 2) Sheik Alihibby who was one of Osama's generals in the field captured by special forces in Afghanistan. All the stuff he came out with was UNDER TORTURE IN EGYPT and has all later been proven to be false. Congress and Bliar were assured that info from inside Iraq was from multiple sources which is laughable as the CIA has about 5 men in the whole country!!!


Discuss the rest later.

If you consider the politics of the whole instigation of war, I think there are several aspects to consider.
1.Britain is dependant on the USA for upgrade of our submarine missiles - no upgrade just expensive toys.
2. Britain has a large Muslim population. Immigrants usually vote Labour so there was a potential loss of votes if the case for War wasn't good enough.
3. The USA had been attacked and there had to be an enemy that could be destroyed. A President who can't be re elected, ultra right wing born again Christan, resurgence of God in the USA etc etc. All Bush needed, with control of Senate and Congress, was a plausible excuse and a degree of support. No support, no war.

The removal of Saddam had to happen. Perhaps spurred on by genocide on Serbia and Croatia, the attempted genocide of the Kurds the attack on Kuwait.  There was no real way to handle the removal well. The UN imposed sanctions and the Iraqi people suffered.

George HW Bush refused to attack Iraq as it (attack) was contrary to the UN resolution - it should have been done and twenty years of Iraqi suffering would have been averted.

Oh, I know there is the question of oil but its rather a red herring.

So there you have it. 50 years of incorrect foreign policy, 50 years of ineffectual UN, 50 years of Western Europe sitting on the fence and a major conflict, which can't be "won", caused by a bunch of disaffected muslim nutters.

Its a viewpoint.

"I'm a competitor and I want to play every game, every minute. The manager knows what I'm thinking. He knows I want to play. He makes his choices and I have to respect them."But it's true we don't share quite the same philosophy. For him, it's more crosses, a bit of a more direct style, whereas I'm more the kind of player who likes to play short passes.
"I like to pass and move.. .."That is the kind of football I like. That's the philosophy I learned at the French academy at Clairefontaine." HBA

indi

  • Administrator
  • Death to David Pleat.
Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #34 on: Friday 5 January 2007, 12:48:20 PM »

Tenet resigned from the CIA cause he couldn't live with himself. He was actually one of the best Directors the CIA has ever had. He will be remembered as the man who lost the CIA the battle against the Pentagon (Cheney and Rumsfeld IMO War criminals). He let Cheney manipulate the hard intelligence on Iraq till it came to a point that they were basically LYING to congress and the U.N. It has come to light he didn't even read the speech that dupe Powell made to the U.N. filled as it was with LIES and truth bending. Nothing can stop the killing machine when it sees a profitable war on the horizon. The Yellow cake story which Blair and our boys backed up was a total fabrication. Most of the stuff about chemical weapons in Iraq came from two sources. 1) That world renonwned fraudster and liar CHALABI who will now have big say in running Iraq. 2) Sheik Alihibby who was one of Osama's generals in the field captured by special forces in Afghanistan. All the stuff he came out with was UNDER TORTURE IN EGYPT and has all later been proven to be false. Congress and Bliar were assured that info from inside Iraq was from multiple sources which is laughable as the CIA has about 5 men in the whole country!!!



Further to what Parky's said above, it's important to remember that the CIA has often argued against the White House's desire to go after Iraq. In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc, wanted to go straight for Iraq, but the CIA argued that there was simply no link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. They were right, but the majority of Americans still believe that a link exists because, although it's a myth, it has received constant and consistent support from the White House. Personally, I believe the only purpose of the invasion of Afghanistan was to provide a stepping stone to an attack against Iraq, the lack of attention given to it since the Taliban were "overthrown" - they're still in control of large swathes of the country - both militarily and politically, shows that the Bush administration has no real interest in what happens there at all. The only reason that the US ever went anywhere near Afghanistan is because the CIA told the White House that it was the only "legitimate" target in response to 9/11 and if they ignored it and went for Iraq they would never be able to make it stand-up, particularly with regard to getting support internationally.

Although the CIA has done some particularly dirty and underhand stuff, they do seem to have some concept of the real world and subsequently they follow some kind of - for want of a better word - morality. By this I mean that they feel the need to have at least some justification for their actions, I'm not agreeing with that justification, or those actions, simply acknowledging it's existence. Make no mistake, the motivation for the US's recent foreign policy has not come from the CIA, but from the White House. The CIA may have a large amount of autonomy, but it remains an agency of the US government and therefore, at the end of the day; it does what it's told.

Magnetic North

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #35 on: Friday 5 January 2007, 01:46:07 PM »
I still don't think Blair intentionally lied to the country.

Your posts are decent value Parky, but I agree with Ally on this one.

Re: Bliar his cronies, the media and their lies, lies and more lies.
« Reply #36 on: Friday 5 January 2007, 01:48:14 PM »
sometimes the spooks are the only people you can trust

at the end in the USSR the only people who knew what was going on were the KGB

everyone else was falsifying the number all over the place - it was the main reason they collapsed - at the very end all the KGB knew was that every "fact" was bollix and its tough to do owt when you get to that position

The rapturous, wild & ineffable pleasure of drinking at someone else's expense